On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 11:26 AM, Nick Schweitzer wrote:

I do have a custom domain with GoDaddy, but I am using straight email forwarding to Gmail.

I also have a domain on GoDaddy.? I've got an email account set up that uses secureserver.net.? It's not unusual to see messages come in that are up to 3 days old, but I don't use it for anything serious.

Duane
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Hi

I am hoping that someone can clarify this for me. It arises from Sugar's question. I *think* my reply works - send a blank email to the subscription address or send herself an invitation.

But I looked at the wiki to see what it said and that got me wondering whether we should break out the different cases:
- if someone is brand new to Groups.io - the current instructions work, but can they use the subscribe email if they have a specific group in mind?

- if someone has joined Groups.io already and at this point, just wishes to join a specific group.

The wiki page "Logging In" starts from the Groups.io homepage. This is useful for someone who is brand new to Groups.io
?/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Logging-In
It doesn't go on to explain what to do next - how to join a group.


What if someone is a member already of Groups.io?
So any instructions on how to join a group would work for them.

I guess I am unsure how the different scenarios work. I *think* that someone who doesn't already have a Groups.io account can just use the blank email approach or click on an invitation link.

It would be useful to clarify this section!

And perhaps there needs to be a section on finding groups. The online list is only Publicly Listed Groups. Some are restricted groups - you need to apply for membership. Those that don't say anything are open to all - just click through to join.

Frances

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I have now established that the misrouting does NOT occur if I sent a message to the +owner address from my btinternet.com account, but not by using the mail.btinternet.com server but by using the yahoo one. This is routed via yahoo rather that via btinternet and synchronoss, so it confirms the earlier experiments and points to the culprit being btinternet or synchronoss.

regards
Peter

Hi Sugar,

If you wanted a second account with your group, you could send a blank email to [GROUPNAME][email protected]
You might want to make one of them No Mail or Special Notices only so you don't get duplicates.
Or you could send yourself an invitation.

Hope this helps.

Frances

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Nick,

I am the owner of the Tosa Spokesmen, and the people in question are
not being moderated.

I didn't think that was a factor with your issue, although delay pending moderation is frequently mistaken for a communication delay.

I don't have a funky setup here. I don't know what CMGW is, and its
not something that I've configured.

Nevertheless, I believe it is part of your inbound message path. In particular, that your custom domain specifies that server for receipt of emails addressed to you.

You may be able to verify this by analyzing the header of a message you received from some other source. The inbound path (last few hops) should be pretty much the same for all messages you receive.

The other reason I don't think that CMGW is part of Groups.io is that I've never seen it in the path of any message to me from Groups.io, and I've looked at headers I've received at two different services (Gmail and Dreamhost). My path is always direct Groups.io --> google.com or Groups.io --> dreamhost.com

Shal


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开云体育

Bruce,

Is it just me, or have bottom quotes recently begun to disappear from
formatted digests?

My understanding that this has been true from the start. But Groups.io's ability to detect bottom quotes has varied, and may have improved recently.

Viewed on the web site these same bottom quotes are hidden under a "Show quoted text" button (formerly shown as a ... button). In individual messages they pass through normally.

Shal


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On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 11:18 AM, P H LLOYD wrote:

Since Chris in his latest message has not copied the letter he was responding to, I am not sure what the "Guess" is that he refers to.

I was quoting Peter's message that was immediately before mine.

In other news this PC (which from past experience exhibits the "problem") uses XP + Outlook 2003. (No laughing at the back please!)

I will do the same test using my laptop (should have done it while I was away; would save getting it out again) because that uses Win7 + Outlook 2013; it will be worth seeing if there is any difference in behaviour.

It won't make any difference "internet - wise" because both ostensibly use BT, although not the Yahoo variant. IIRC my email service is provided by cpcloud.

Chris

Peter,

I get the same issue with group+owner, and I use Thunderbird.

Thanks for that!

I really didn't think it was a Microsoft issue, as I think there are many group members using Outlook in one form or another, and we'd no doubt have heard of this already.

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With the clarity of morning comes the realization that the header To: field has the correct (+owner) address, even in the misdirected message.

So, the recommended fix to Groups.io may be, in cases where the message is delivered to Groups.io directly from btinternet.com, trust the header To field over the envelope To. Or at least compare them and make a decision.

Shal


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Is it just me, or have bottom quotes recently begun to disappear from formatted digests?

Nick's posts 18730 and 18731 arrived in my inbox via digest without any context...but the quotes do appear in the message archive, so they must have been sent. Not sure if this is a bug or a feature...

From yesterday's system update:

• BUGFIX: We had disabled signature parsing in plain text messages where we couldn't tell if the sig was part of the reply or the original message. That change wasn't also added to html messages.

Could the two be related?

Bruce
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Yes, Sue, I too have issues with btinternet and am seriously thinking of moving everything to gmail.? But I remember the problems when I ditched NTLWorld and went to BT

I get the same issue with group+owner, and I use Thunderbird.

Peter

Although I have not seen this issue on my group, I do have a btinternet.com address, so I tried sending a test message to the owner and I believe it was sent out to the group.? I have two memberships of the group, one has owner status and the other does not.? Unfortunately the one that does not also is set to "no emails" (so I don't get everything twice!) but if I log on under that name I see the message.

Since Chris in his latest message has not copied the letter he was responding to, I am not sure what the "Guess" is that he refers to.

Peter

So implicated are Microsoft, synchonoss.net and btinternet.com.

Alas, I can't think of a way to determine which one. Well, I guess we could rule out (or convict) Microsoft if one of you were to try a different client app (e.g. Thunderbird).

Sorry, I don't use any other email client so can't help there. I don't know if this has any bearing on the issue but BT has been the subject of some problems in delivery and syncing mail this past week or so. From the little I've read about it, it seems to point to Yahoo servers.
Although things are better now (previously had no access at all) I am still having glitches with my mail being delivered or alternatively double or triple drops of repeat mail.

Sue

Peter,

I am going to send two messages to [email protected], one
via POP3 and the other via Webmail. I am guessing the first will be
misrouted and appear at [email protected] (or perhaps it will
be rejected since I am not subscribed?).

main@shalstest has the "Allow Non Subscribers to Post" box checked, so your message arrived in the Pending queue for moderation. I checked that before asking you to send in a message.

Alas, nothing in the header offered me a clue. None of the Received fields bothered to include a "for" clause that might have revealed the envelope To: content at that step.

I am guessing the second will be routed correctly. I will copy both to
your personal email address.

Damn Gmail. I forgot that it would irrevocably hide from my view the second message (the copy through the +owner address). I really do hate that misfeature with a passion.

And I also failed to check my alternate mod addresses, which weren't set to send me non-subscriber +owner messages. Oops, that one's on me.

-----

At any rate, one interesting distinction between the one that was sent by your email client and the one that was Webmail is the path they took.

The client SMTP message:
Your laptop (Outlook Express 6) --> synchonoss.net --> btinternet.com
--> Gmail & Groups.io

The Webmail message:
yahoo.com --> yahoo.com --> Gmail (& presumably Groups.io)

Which is consistent with my failure to be able to reproduce the problem using my Yahoo mail account by way of its webmail interface.

Sue used Outlook 14 on her laptop, but otherwise the message followed the same path as your first example. So implicated are Microsoft, synchonoss.net and btinternet.com.

Alas, I can't think of a way to determine which one. Well, I guess we could rule out (or convict) Microsoft if one of you were to try a different client app (e.g. Thunderbird).

Shal


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On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 08:32 AM, Peter Martinez wrote:

I am going to send two messages to [email protected], one via POP3 and the other via Webmail.

Your "guess" turned out to be correct. Both your and Sue's messages were released in moderation just to prove the point.

Chris

Shal:

I am going to send two messages to [email protected], one via POP3 and the other via Webmail. I am guessing the first will be misrouted and appear at [email protected] (or perhaps it will be rejected since I am not subscribed?). I am guessing the second will be routed correctly. I will copy both to your personal email address.

Thanks
Peter

Ken,

How does GIO check/verify the sender?

My understanding is that Groups.io does the standard connection-time checks to see that the connecting machine has valid DNS records identifying it as a mail server (aka, a "reverse DNS" lookup).

That takes out the classic sort of spambot: a malware-infected PC that is running its own SMTP code to connect and deliver mal-mail. Given that nearly every receiving service has a defense against this type of source, I'm not sure if they are still out there. But they probably are, just to nail the remainder.

I'd guess there's ways for a mal sender to spoof the "From" address
(like spoofed robo calls "from" phone numbers) ...

Yup. Forging the From address is only a little more difficult than writing someone else's return address on a postal envelope.

... but I'd suspect email servers check and dump messages (never make
their way out the door) that don't authenticate it's from an actual
email user?

Correct.

Most email servers have closed their "open relay" ports, meaning that applications like Thunderbird or other remote software must now authenticate with valid user credentials in order to send mail to that server by SMTP.

Finding and exploiting unlocked SMTP relays is another technique the crooks use to get to you. If they find an open relay they can exploit the fact that that server /does/ have a valid DNS record as a mail server - thus getting past that first line of defense (above).

The fact that there are still "open relays" in the world is one reason a receiving service might use a third-party RBL (real-time blacklist) to reject messages from such sources. Sometimes I suppose the crook might manage to set up and register an email service of his own, so he doesn't have to find open ones. I don't know if/how Groups.io handles these cases.

The majority of mal-mail that reaches me these days I think is none of the above. I think these scam-malware-spam messages originate at compromised email accounts at otherwise legit email services. In this case authentication was required, but by means of phishing or otherwise the crooks were able to obtain the login password for that account and use it. These mails generally do not have a forged from address, though the Display Name, Subject, and Message Body are of course a complete lie intended to fool you.

With an open relay, an owned server, or a compromised account the mal-mail won't arrive in your group unless the sender does actually forge the address part of the From field to match one of your group members' address. In this case there is still one more check Groups.io could do, but doesn't. It could do something akin to a DMARC check to ensure that the domain written in the email part of the From field matches the domain of the server that connected to theirs.

That is, if a message's From field says it is from me@..., but it was given to Groups.io by a server from yahoo.com, then the message is a priori a "spoof" - a forged From address. The last time I talked with Mark about this his reason for not performing this check is that it would reject too much of his inbound traffic which is actually "legit" but breaks that check.

Shal


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Shal

What you say makes a ton of sense.? I didn't notice the option of the source code.
How does GIO check/verify the sender?? I have no idea how/method, but I'd guess there's ways for a mal sender to spoof the "From" address (like spoofed robo calls "from" phone numbers) but I'd suspect email servers check and dump messages (never make their way out the door) that don't authenticate it's from an actual email user?

-ken

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