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It¡¯s been twenty years¡
#pcbgcode
|
Somehow, twenty years has passed since I began circulating pcb-gcode.
For a large part of those years, Art aka Country has been your fearless moderator and helped many people through issues with the software. Thanks Art! There have been three messages this year on the group here. I am fortunate to have a full time job now, and it¡¯s been at least 15 years since I made a pcb. So where do we go from here? The group still has 3,000 members. I wonder how many still use pcb-gcode? Have you all moved on to something else? Maybe KiCad? I understand Autodesk is going to pull the plug on Eagle sometime in the near future. The group doesn¡¯t cost anything, so no problem leaving it up. Would different group software (e.g. Discourse) help anyone, or be worth paying for hosting? Appreciate any thoughts you all have! Regards, JJ |
|
In a pinch, I sometimes use PCB-GCODE. Not as often when I started using it. With Autodesk pulling Eagle, will the last version after it's gone work indefinitely? I've tried other drawing ware but I think I finally figured out all of Eagle's idiosyncrasies and I still like it.
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 10:31:34 AM EDT, John Johnson <john@...> wrote:
Somehow, twenty years has passed since I began circulating pcb-gcode. For a large part of those years, Art aka Country has been your fearless moderator and helped many people through issues with the software. Thanks Art! There have been three messages this year on the group here. I am fortunate to have a full time job now, and it¡¯s been at least 15 years since I made a pcb. So where do we go from here? The group still has 3,000 members. I wonder how many still use pcb-gcode? Have you all moved on to something else? Maybe KiCad? I understand Autodesk is going to pull the plug on Eagle sometime in the near future. The group doesn¡¯t cost anything, so no problem leaving it up. Would different group software (e.g. Discourse) help anyone, or be worth paying for hosting? Appreciate any thoughts you all have! Regards, JJ |
|
As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode.
It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel when it works, just go with it. My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest in this fascinating hobby. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýWow, its been that long! It has been a real pleasure working with this group and its due to the membership being interested in the product and not trolling the group. I want to thank you and all of rest for the honor of being here.Speaking of full time jobs (which you had one back then), I was still employed? hadn't retired yet for the second time:})? Time marches on:}) Now back to the subject, like you, it has been a while since I have made a board, because other interests and projects have come along. However, I know that if I want to whip up a board, everything is still in place for me to do it. The computer will fire up my old version of Eagle (version 6.1 that I own and don't have to rely on "the cloud") along with pcb-gcode. Then of course there is the router still running faithful old Turbocnc!? I guess like me all of my stuff is old and dated, and we may be slow, but still get the job done! Personally, I still prefer this type of communication as it is easy for me to search back through the many mails we have had over the years. Still have my first message to this group back in Dec of 2005 when it was started! To me, a discorse setup is like walking into the middle of a group conversation and not really knowing what is going on. Maybe its because I don't really know how to navigate it, but that has been my limited experience. You mention autodesk pulling Eagle, but that is the exact reason why I still use my old version. It is NOT subject to the whims of some bean counter somewhere. My story and sticking to it. Anyhow, happy anniversary and hope life continues to be good for you. Country Bubba On 8/17/2023 10:31 AM, John Johnson
wrote:
Somehow, twenty years has passed since I began circulating pcb-gcode. For a large part of those years, Art aka Country has been your fearless moderator and helped many people through issues with the software. Thanks Art! There have been three messages this year on the group here. I am fortunate to have a full time job now, and it¡¯s been at least 15 years since I made a pcb. So where do we go from here? The group still has 3,000 members. I wonder how many still use pcb-gcode? Have you all moved on to something else? Maybe KiCad? I understand Autodesk is going to pull the plug on Eagle sometime in the near future. The group doesn¡¯t cost anything, so no problem leaving it up. Would different group software (e.g. Discourse) help anyone, or be worth paying for hosting? Appreciate any thoughts you all have! Regards, JJ |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýLike you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when your XP machine finally expires.Country On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via
groups.io wrote:
As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. |
|
Sorry to hear that pcb-gcode may be sunsetting.? I'm kind of late to the party but have always used some iteration of Eagle for the last 20 or so years.? Just a recent convert to pcb milling and hapilly jumped on board pcb-gcode.
If there is any way to keep it going, even if it is a group effort, I would be very happy.?? Ian |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
Hi,
I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I could not
run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as intricate as you like
with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into the Fusion Electronics package.
I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived!
There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for PCBs for three years plus.
The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something about EAGLEs Pour function
which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great annoyance.
To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it works fine and after several years
its become second nature.?
Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years pestering them about it.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art Eckstein <art.eckstein@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual machine
in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when your XP machine finally expires.
Country On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote:
As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
Hi,
at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had feared.
Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. $500USD/year.
If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than Fusion Basic.
The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500
perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of thousands.
Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, its still good,? cheap?software.
I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. This gives me simultaneous
four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more,
much more
again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are good value.
It is the value that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very against a Subscription to favourable.
The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If you are fortunate enough to have reliable
internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy internet?from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those circumstances. At work,
in the city its fine.
I've heard complaints about data security....but? all my business records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax records, medical records
and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I have no complaints about the Cloud
other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joeaverage <joe.average@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
Hi,
I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I could not
run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as intricate as you like
with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into the Fusion Electronics package.
I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived!
There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for PCBs for three years plus.
The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something about EAGLEs Pour function
which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great annoyance.
To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it works fine and after several years
its become second nature.?
Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years pestering them about it.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art Eckstein <art.eckstein@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual machine
in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when your XP machine finally expires.
Country On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote:
As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. |
|
Funny this came up now. I just last week searched out pcbgcode after about a five year hiatus with the need to make some quick prototypes. Of course the quick part evaporated rather quickly since after five years I have to relearn everything! Oh well. On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 10:31?AM John Johnson <john@...> wrote: Somehow, twenty years has passed since I began circulating pcb-gcode. |
|
This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at autodesk.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to whatever Autodesk is selling this time. Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I asked.? They pretty much said so. I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open source) to be rather attractive. And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories than EAGLE. Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 layers. Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under surface mount parts. Didn't last for long. Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. Harvey On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote:
Hi, |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
Hi,
I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs
That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable
they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure
is value.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey White <madyn@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at autodesk.
If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to whatever Autodesk is selling this time. Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I asked.? They pretty much said so. I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open source) to be rather attractive. And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories than EAGLE. Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 layers. Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under surface mount parts. Didn't last for long. Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. Harvey On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote: > Hi, > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had feared. > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. > $500USD/year. > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than > Fusion Basic. > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500 > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of > thousands. > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, > its still good,? cheap software. > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. > This gives me simultaneous > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_ > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are > good value. > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very > against a Subscription to favourable. > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If > you are fortunate enough to have reliable > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine. > I've heard complaints about data security....but? all my business > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax > records, medical records > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I > have no complaints about the Cloud > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops. > > Craig > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of > joeaverage <joe.average@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > Hi, > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I > could not > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as > intricate as you like > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into > the Fusion Electronics package. > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived! > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for > PCBs for three years plus. > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something > about EAGLEs Pour function > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great annoyance. > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it > works fine and after several years > its become second nature. > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years > pestering them about it. > > Craig > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when > your XP machine finally expires. > > Country > > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote: >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel >> when it works, just go with it. >> >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest >> in this fascinating hobby. > > |
|
You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and may be deductable).
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin> not the same thing at all. I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60 or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade. So nope.... good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not. And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't.... They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not. I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE into a workable product. Harvey On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote:
Hi, |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
Hi,
to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk
apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion license, so that is my recollection only.
There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there are features
that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me.
One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain demands on file handling?
that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file handling.
Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in providing the best
possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't please everyone
but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion Electronics daily
and design productivity matters to me.
I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for high speed
digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk are committed to
pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell.
Not quite sure what you mean here??
I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription
OR you can buy 'tokens'
and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but
the short-term use rates?
are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to
renew the subscription.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey White <madyn@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from
this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and may be deductable). Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin> not the same thing at all. I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60 or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade. So nope.... good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not. And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't.... They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not. I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE into a workable product. Harvey On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote: > Hi, > I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living > without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs > >???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I >???? asked.? They pretty much said so. > > That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining > Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable > they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At > $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is value. > > Craig > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > White <madyn@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at > autodesk. > > If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally > care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to > whatever Autodesk is selling this time. > > Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had > paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start > paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). > > Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > asked.? They pretty much said so. > > I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that > $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... > > As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open > source) to be rather attractive. > > And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite > frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. > > The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories > than EAGLE. > > Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner > transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can > be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 > and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high > speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond > my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 layers. > > Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under > surface mount parts. > > Didn't last for long. > > Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. > > Harvey > > > > On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > Hi, > > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud > > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had > feared. > > > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good > > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. > > $500USD/year. > > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several > > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than > > Fusion Basic. > > > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO > > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO > > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500 > > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and > > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of > > thousands. > > > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, > > its still good,? cheap software. > > > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about > > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. > > This gives me simultaneous > > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I > > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs > > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_ > > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are > > good value. > > > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very > > against a Subscription to favourable. > > > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not > > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If > > you are fortunate enough to have reliable > > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy > > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those > > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine. > > I've heard complaints about data security....but? all my business > > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax > > records, medical records > > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much > > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I > > have no complaints about the Cloud > > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops. > > > > Craig > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of > > joeaverage <joe.average@...> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > Hi, > > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of > > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I > > could not > > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB > > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as > > intricate as you like > > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter > > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into > > the Fusion Electronics package. > > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived! > > > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of > > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for > > PCBs for three years plus. > > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with > > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something > > about EAGLEs Pour function > > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great > annoyance. > > > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into > > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it > > works fine and after several years > > its become second nature. > > > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode > > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years > > pestering them about it. > > > > Craig > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art > > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but > > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of > > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual > > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when > > your XP machine finally expires. > > > > Country > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote: > >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run > >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. > >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new > >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel > >> when it works, just go with it. > >> > >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming > >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest > >> in this fascinating hobby. > > > > > > > > > > |
|
Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me out.
interleaved otherwisel On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote: Hi,It would be, and especially appalling for this list. I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models (which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit. One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain demands on file handlingI rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust the internet with my designs... <sorry> Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and whatever else I need. Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever one, likely the unimat). I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for high speedSo true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or above boards?? I haven't played with that. And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droidOh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.? You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed that design in another month, another $15.00.... A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable. I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you can buy 'tokens'I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!) objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto). What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license, which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc. I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have to have EAGLE..... Their latest version, of course. I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several emails to (and from) them. Harvey Craig |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýFusion 360 does have a hobby license. Been using it for years.? Look it up in Google.? There is a process to get the hobby license working.
Thank you, Ward M. Elder -------- Original message --------
From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
Date: 2023-08-17 8:55 p.m. (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode
Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me
out. interleaved otherwisel On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote: > Hi, > to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to > free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk > apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion > license, so that is my recollection only. > >???? I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a >???? bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I >???? hope >???? for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE >???? into a workable product. > > There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion > Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there > are features > that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The > breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me. > It would be, and especially appalling for this list. I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models (which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit. > One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file > handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain > demands on file handling > that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a > problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file handling. I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust the internet with my designs... <sorry> > > Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any > technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in > providing the best > possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and > to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't > please everyone > but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so > with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion > Electronics daily > and design productivity matters to me. > Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and whatever else I need. Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever one, likely the unimat). > I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk > have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for > high speed > digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not > reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk > are committed to > pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell. > So true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or above boards?? I haven't played with that. >???? And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid >???? said was >???? "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > Not quite sure what you mean here? > Oh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.? You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed that design in another month, another $15.00.... A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable. > I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance > modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you > can buy 'tokens' > and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. > Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but the > short-term use rates > are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As > it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to renew the > subscription. > I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!) objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto). What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license, which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc. I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have to have EAGLE..... Their latest version, of course. I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several emails to (and from) them. Harvey > Craig > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > White <madyn@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from > this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and > may be deductable). > > Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin> > > not the same thing at all. > > I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that > gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their > attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I > had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same > provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60 > or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly > expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade. > > So nope.... > > good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not. > > And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was > "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't.... > > They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not. > > I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a > bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope > for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE > into a workable product. > > Harvey > > > On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > Hi, > > I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living > > without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs > > > >???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > >???? asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining > > Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable > > they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At > > $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is > value. > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > > White <madyn@...> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at > > autodesk. > > > > If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally > > care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to > > whatever Autodesk is selling this time. > > > > Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had > > paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start > > paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). > > > > Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > > asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that > > $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... > > > > As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open > > source) to be rather attractive. > > > > And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite > > frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. > > > > The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories > > than EAGLE. > > > > Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner > > transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can > > be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 > > and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high > > speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond > > my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 > layers. > > > > Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under > > surface mount parts. > > > > Didn't last for long. > > > > Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. > > > > Harvey > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > > Hi, > > > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud > > > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had > > feared. > > > > > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good > > > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. > > > $500USD/year. > > > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several > > > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than > > > Fusion Basic. > > > > > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO > > > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO > > > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500 > > > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and > > > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of > > > thousands. > > > > > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, > > > its still good,? cheap software. > > > > > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about > > > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. > > > This gives me simultaneous > > > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I > > > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs > > > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_ > > > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are > > > good value. > > > > > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very > > > against a Subscription to favourable. > > > > > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not > > > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If > > > you are fortunate enough to have reliable > > > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy > > > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those > > > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine. > > > I've heard complaints about data security....but all my business > > > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax > > > records, medical records > > > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much > > > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I > > > have no complaints about the Cloud > > > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of > > > joeaverage <joe.average@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Hi, > > > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of > > > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I > > > could not > > > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB > > > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as > > > intricate as you like > > > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter > > > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into > > > the Fusion Electronics package. > > > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived! > > > > > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of > > > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for > > > PCBs for three years plus. > > > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with > > > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something > > > about EAGLEs Pour function > > > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great > > annoyance. > > > > > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into > > > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it > > > works fine and after several years > > > its become second nature. > > > > > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode > > > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years > > > pestering them about it. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art > > > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but > > > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of > > > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual > > > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when > > > your XP machine finally expires. > > > > > > Country > > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote: > > >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run > > >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. > > >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new > > >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel > > >> when it works, just go with it. > > >> > > >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming > > >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest > > >> in this fascinating hobby. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
|
I am currently using Fusion with a hobby license. The cnc setups, rapids and tool changes are not enabled.? But there are "work arounds".? And Eagle still works with the board size limitation. Steve
On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 09:01:07 PM CDT, Ward Elder <ward@...> wrote:
Fusion 360 does have a hobby license. Been using it for years.? Look it up in Google.? There is a process to get the hobby license working.
Thank you, Ward M. Elder -------- Original message --------
From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
Date: 2023-08-17 8:55 p.m. (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode
Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me
out. interleaved otherwisel On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote: > Hi, > to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to > free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk > apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion > license, so that is my recollection only. > >???? I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a >???? bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I >???? hope >???? for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE >???? into a workable product. > > There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion > Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there > are features > that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The > breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me. > It would be, and especially appalling for this list. I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models (which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit. > One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file > handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain > demands on file handling > that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a > problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file handling. I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust the internet with my designs... <sorry> > > Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any > technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in > providing the best > possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and > to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't > please everyone > but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so > with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion > Electronics daily > and design productivity matters to me. > Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and whatever else I need. Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever one, likely the unimat). > I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk > have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for > high speed > digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not > reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk > are committed to > pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell. > So true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or above boards?? I haven't played with that. >???? And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid >???? said was >???? "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > Not quite sure what you mean here? > Oh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.? You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed that design in another month, another $15.00.... A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable. > I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance > modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you > can buy 'tokens' > and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. > Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but the > short-term use rates > are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As > it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to renew the > subscription. > I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!) objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto). What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license, which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc. I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have to have EAGLE..... Their latest version, of course. I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several emails to (and from) them. Harvey > Craig > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > White <madyn@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from > this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and > may be deductable). > > Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin> > > not the same thing at all. > > I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that > gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their > attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I > had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same > provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60 > or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly > expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade. > > So nope.... > > good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not. > > And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was > "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't.... > > They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not. > > I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a > bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope > for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE > into a workable product. > > Harvey > > > On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > Hi, > > I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living > > without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs > > > >???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > >???? asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining > > Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable > > they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At > > $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is > value. > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > > White <madyn@...> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at > > autodesk. > > > > If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally > > care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to > > whatever Autodesk is selling this time. > > > > Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had > > paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start > > paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). > > > > Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > > asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that > > $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... > > > > As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open > > source) to be rather attractive. > > > > And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite > > frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. > > > > The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories > > than EAGLE. > > > > Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner > > transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can > > be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 > > and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high > > speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond > > my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 > layers. > > > > Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under > > surface mount parts. > > > > Didn't last for long. > > > > Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. > > > > Harvey > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > > Hi, > > > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud > > > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had > > feared. > > > > > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good > > > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. > > > $500USD/year. > > > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several > > > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than > > > Fusion Basic. > > > > > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO > > > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO > > > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500 > > > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and > > > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of > > > thousands. > > > > > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, > > > its still good,? cheap software. > > > > > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about > > > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. > > > This gives me simultaneous > > > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I > > > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs > > > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_ > > > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are > > > good value. > > > > > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very > > > against a Subscription to favourable. > > > > > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not > > > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If > > > you are fortunate enough to have reliable > > > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy > > > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those > > > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine. > > > I've heard complaints about data security....but all my business > > > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax > > > records, medical records > > > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much > > > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I > > > have no complaints about the Cloud > > > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of > > > joeaverage <joe.average@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Hi, > > > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of > > > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I > > > could not > > > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB > > > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as > > > intricate as you like > > > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter > > > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into > > > the Fusion Electronics package. > > > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived! > > > > > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of > > > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for > > > PCBs for three years plus. > > > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with > > > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something > > > about EAGLEs Pour function > > > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great > > annoyance. > > > > > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into > > > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it > > > works fine and after several years > > > its become second nature. > > > > > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode > > > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years > > > pestering them about it. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art > > > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but > > > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of > > > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual > > > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when > > > your XP machine finally expires. > > > > > > Country > > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote: > > >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run > > >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. > > >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new > > >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel > > >> when it works, just go with it. > > >> > > >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming > > >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest > > >> in this fascinating hobby. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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Hi,
That is one area where Fusion Electronics is very strong, namely 3D modelling. Many parts already have 3D models attached, and more
can be added, so that you get a good 3d view of your board. Its not something I use but can well imagine many users would consider it a boon
to product development.
I agree, but then all my business records and accounts are on the cloud and entirely probably my medical records and/or tax records.
Who knows?
It is certainly the trend that stuff is going onto the cloud, and while I don't like it much, its happening anyway. I have no
issues with it, except if the internet
slows down, but otherwise OK.
Craig
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey White <madyn@...>
Sent: Friday, 18 August 2023 1:55 pm To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode ?
Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me
out. interleaved otherwisel On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote: > Hi, > to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to > free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk > apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion > license, so that is my recollection only. > >???? I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a >???? bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I >???? hope >???? for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE >???? into a workable product. > > There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion > Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there > are features > that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The > breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me. > It would be, and especially appalling for this list. I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models (which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit. > One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file > handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain > demands on file handling > that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a > problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file handling. I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust the internet with my designs... <sorry> > > Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any > technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in > providing the best > possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and > to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't > please everyone > but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so > with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion > Electronics daily > and design productivity matters to me. > Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and whatever else I need. Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever one, likely the unimat). > I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk > have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for > high speed > digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not > reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk > are committed to > pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell. > So true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or above boards?? I haven't played with that. >???? And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid >???? said was >???? "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > Not quite sure what you mean here? > Oh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.? You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed that design in another month, another $15.00.... A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable. > I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance > modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you > can buy 'tokens' > and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis. > Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but the > short-term use rates > are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As > it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to renew the > subscription. > I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!) objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto). What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license, which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc. I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have to have EAGLE..... Their latest version, of course. I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several emails to (and from) them. Harvey > Craig > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > White <madyn@...> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from > this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and > may be deductable). > > Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin> > > not the same thing at all. > > I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that > gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their > attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I > had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same > provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60 > or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly > expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade. > > So nope.... > > good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not. > > And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was > "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....." > > And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't.... > > They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not. > > I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a > bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope > for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE > into a workable product. > > Harvey > > > On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > Hi, > > I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living > > without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs > > > >???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > >???? asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining > > Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable > > they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At > > $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is > value. > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey > > White <madyn@...> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at > > autodesk. > > > > If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally > > care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to > > whatever Autodesk is selling this time. > > > > Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had > > paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start > > paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did). > > > > Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I > > asked.? They pretty much said so. > > > > I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that > > $500/year would pay for my PC board bill.... > > > > As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open > > source) to be rather attractive. > > > > And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite > > frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project. > > > > The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories > > than EAGLE. > > > > Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner > > transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can > > be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100 > > and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high > > speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond > > my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4 > layers. > > > > Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under > > surface mount parts. > > > > Didn't last for long. > > > > Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future. > > > > Harvey > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote: > > > Hi, > > > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud > > > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had > > feared. > > > > > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good > > > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx. > > > $500USD/year. > > > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several > > > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than > > > Fusion Basic. > > > > > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO > > > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO > > > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500 > > > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and > > > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of > > > thousands. > > > > > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying, > > > its still good,? cheap software. > > > > > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about > > > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription. > > > This gives me simultaneous > > > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I > > > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs > > > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_ > > > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are > > > good value. > > > > > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very > > > against a Subscription to favourable. > > > > > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not > > > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If > > > you are fortunate enough to have reliable > > > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy > > > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those > > > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine. > > > I've heard complaints about data security....but all my business > > > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax > > > records, medical records > > > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much > > > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I > > > have no complaints about the Cloud > > > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of > > > joeaverage <joe.average@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Hi, > > > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of > > > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I > > > could not > > > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB > > > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as > > > intricate as you like > > > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter > > > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into > > > the Fusion Electronics package. > > > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived! > > > > > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of > > > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for > > > PCBs for three years plus. > > > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with > > > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something > > > about EAGLEs Pour function > > > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great > > annoyance. > > > > > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into > > > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it > > > works fine and after several years > > > its become second nature. > > > > > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode > > > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years > > > pestering them about it. > > > > > > Craig > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art > > > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> > > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am > > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It¡¯s been twenty years¡ #pcbgcode > > > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but > > > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of > > > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual > > > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when > > > your XP machine finally expires. > > > > > > Country > > > > > > > > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote: > > >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run > > >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode. > > >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new > > >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel > > >> when it works, just go with it. > > >> > > >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming > > >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest > > >> in this fascinating hobby. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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Thanks.? The board size and schematic limitations are inadequate to my existing designs.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Harvey On 8/17/2023 10:01 PM, Ward Elder wrote:
Fusion 360 does have a hobby license. Been using it for years.? Look it up in Google.? There is a process to get the hobby license working. |
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On 8/17/2023 10:13 PM, joeaverage wrote:
Hi,Oh, I find it useful, especially in making cases, adaptors and the like.? Since I can program, OpenSCAD is a perfectly reasonable thing for me. I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trustAh, just because THEY do it doesn't mean that I want to do it.? I find myself in places without internet access, so "verifying a license key" or "retrieving my data from the cloud"......... nope... apparently I haven't graduated fully into the 21st Century. Ah well, pass me the torch, I want to decorate the cave wall again. Harvey
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John Johnson
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