Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me
out.

interleaved otherwisel

On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote:
> Hi,
> to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to
> free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk
> apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion
> license, so that is my recollection only.
>
>???? I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a
>???? bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I
>???? hope
>???? for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE
>???? into a workable product.
>
> There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion
> Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there
> are features
> that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The
> breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me.
>
It would be, and especially appalling for this list.

I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models
(which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an
openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print
the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model
could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit.

> One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file
> handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain
> demands on file handling
> that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a
> problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file handling.
I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust
the internet with my designs... <sorry>
>
> Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any
> technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in
> providing the best
> possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and
> to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't
> please everyone
> but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so
> with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion
> Electronics daily
> and design productivity matters to me.
>
Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have
an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current
build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and
whatever else I need.

Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever
one, likely the unimat).

> I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk
> have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for
> high speed
> digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not
> reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk
> are committed to
> pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell.
>
So true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or
above boards?? I haven't played with that.


>???? And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid
>???? said was
>???? "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....."
>
> Not quite sure what you mean here?
>
Oh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.?
You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully
for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a
small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than
one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think
I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed
that design in another month, another $15.00....

A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable.


> I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance
> modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you
> can buy 'tokens'
> and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis.
> Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but the
> short-term use rates
> are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As
> it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to renew the
> subscription.
>
I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!)
objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was
essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription
program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it
don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay
for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto).

What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license,
which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc.

I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have
to have EAGLE.....

Their latest version, of course.

I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several
emails to (and from) them.

Harvey


> Craig
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey
> White <madyn@...>
> *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm
> *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
> You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from
> this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and
> may be deductable).
>
> Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin>
>
> not the same thing at all.
>
> I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that
> gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their
> attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I
> had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same
> provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60
> or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly
> expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade.
>
> So nope....
>
> good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not.
>
> And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was
> "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....."
>
> And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't....
>
> They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not.
>
> I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a
> bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope
> for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE
> into a workable product.
>
> Harvey
>
>
> On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living
> > without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs
> >
> >???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I
> >???? asked.? They pretty much said so.
> >
> > That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining
> > Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable
> > they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At
> > $2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is
> value.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey
> > White <madyn@...>
> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm
> > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
> > This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at
> > autodesk.
> >
> > If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally
> > care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they migrate to
> > whatever Autodesk is selling this time.
> >
> > Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.? I had
> > paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start
> > paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did).
> >
> > Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I
> > asked.? They pretty much said so.
> >
> > I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and that
> > $500/year would pay for my PC board bill....
> >
> > As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux (and open
> > source) to be rather attractive.
> >
> > And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which, quite
> > frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project.
> >
> > The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese factories
> > than EAGLE.
> >
> > Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner
> > transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through holes can
> > be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100
> > and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high
> > speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond
> > my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4
> layers.
> >
> > Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under
> > surface mount parts.
> >
> > Didn't last for long.
> >
> > Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future.
> >
> > Harvey
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the Cloud
> > > based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had
> > feared.
> > >
> > > Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good
> > > Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx.
> > > $500USD/year.
> > > If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several
> > > different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than
> > > Fusion Basic.
> > >
> > > The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an entry PRO
> > > level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO
> > > entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500
> > > perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and
> > > Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of
> > > thousands.
> > >
> > > Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying,
> > > its still good,? cheap software.
> > >
> > > I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about
> > > $2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic subscription.
> > > This gives me simultaneous
> > > four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I
> > > wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs
> > > $10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_
> > > again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are
> > > good value.
> > >
> > > It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very
> > > against a Subscription to favourable.
> > >
> > > The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not
> > > that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and reliability. If
> > > you are fortunate enough to have reliable
> > > internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with patchy
> > > internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those
> > > circumstances. At work, in the city its fine.
> > > I've heard complaints about data security....but all my business
> > > records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax
> > > records, medical records
> > > and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud, much
> > > important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen off. I
> > > have no complaints about the Cloud
> > > other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops.
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of
> > > joeaverage <joe.average@...>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am
> > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
> > > Hi,
> > > I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of
> > > EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I
> > > could not
> > > run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB
> > > sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as
> > > intricate as you like
> > > with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not. Thereafter
> > > with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it into
> > > the Fusion Electronics package.
> > > I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived!
> > >
> > > There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion version of
> > > EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using Fusion for
> > > PCBs for three years plus.
> > > The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly with
> > > Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something
> > > about EAGLEs Pour function
> > > which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great
> > annoyance.
> > >
> > > To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into
> > > EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid but it
> > > works fine and after several years
> > > its become second nature.
> > >
> > > Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode
> > > works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years
> > > pestering them about it.
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art
> > > Eckstein <art.eckstein@...>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am
> > > *To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
> > > Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but
> > > know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of
> > > software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual
> > > machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider when
> > > your XP machine finally expires.
> > >
> > > Country
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote:
> > >> As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run
> > >> Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode.
> > >> It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new
> > >> hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel
> > >> when it works, just go with it.
> > >>
> > >> My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming
> > >> harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest
> > >> in this fascinating hobby.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>