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Fusion 360 does have a hobby license. Been using it for years.? Look it up in Google.? There is a process to get the hobby license working.



Thank you,

Ward M. Elder
Eldersoft
42 Appleton St.
Winnipeg, MB
R2G1K5
(204) 791-7754 <tel:(204)%20791-7754>?? (Cell)

ward@...




-------- Original message --------
From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
Date: 2023-08-17 8:55 p.m. (GMT-06:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode

Yep, I think so.? Since Fusion didn't have a hobby license, that left me
out.

interleaved otherwisel

On 8/17/2023 9:31 PM, joeaverage wrote:

Hi,
to my knowledge the same 80mmx100mm limit that EAGLE used to apply to
free licenses is the same limit that Autodesk
apply. It has been some years since I have used the free Fusion
license, so that is my recollection only.

???? I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you.

I'm a

???? bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I
???? hope
???? for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE
???? into a workable product.

There are/have been quite a few EAGLE users whom believe that Fusion
Electronics is a backward step, and I can certainly attest that there
are features
that I preferred in EAGLE but do not like in Fusion Electronics. The
breaking of PCB-Gcode is especially galling to me.

It would be, and especially appalling for this list.

I wrote a separate program that takes a .brd file, and finds models
(which I had to create) of the parts, places them, and generates an
openSCAD model of the board.? The advantage is that you could 3D print
the board before you made it, and then see if it fit.? The 3D model
could also be included in OpenSCAD projects to make sure that the board fit.

One particular area for which this seems to be prevalent is file
handling. Because Fusion is Cloud based that in turn puts certain
demands on file handling
that was not the case with EAGLE. I personally do not find it a
problem but I have heard other users whom much prefer EAGLE file

handling.
I rather despise Cloud based products.? I want it here, I don't trust
the internet with my designs... <sorry>

Until fairly recently I would say Autodesk have not really done any
technical development, but have rather focussed their efforts in
providing the best
possible upgrade experience for EAGLE users to Fusion Electronics, and
to be fair to Autodesk they have done a pretty fair job. It won't
please everyone
but I find my design time is at least as well rewarded, maybe more so
with the addition of good CAD, as EAGLE ever gave me. I use Fusion
Electronics daily
and design productivity matters to me.

Then you do things I do not, or at least, not the same way. Since I have
an OpenSCAD model of the board available (and reflecting the current
build), then I can use openSCAD to design 3D printable cases and
whatever else I need.

Haven't gotten around to CNC the spare mill, nor the lathe (whichever
one, likely the unimat).

I believe, I haven't tried it myself, but as a paid for addon Autodesk
have introduced a module that has impedance modelling especially for
high speed
digital design. My understanding is that it is new functionality, not
reworked from existing EAGLE code. This sort of suggests that Autodesk
are committed to
pushing the boundaries of Fusion Electronics, but only time will tell.

So true.? Am I wrong in saying that impedance traces may need 6 layer or
above boards?? I haven't played with that.

???? And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid
???? said was
???? "well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....."

Not quite sure what you mean here?

Oh, that was easy.? You may not be dealing with the same sales model.
You only pay the additional money when you use the product (hopefully
for 30 days, no idea if it's per calendar month).? So if I designed a
small board in July, no problem.? If I designed something with more than
one page (as if I didn't), bigger, or more than 2 layers... then I think
I owe (what, $15.00 last I looked) for that month, and if I reviewed
that design in another month, another $15.00....

A small bit of math illustrates why I'd find that objectionable.

I do know that many of the specialist modules like the impedance
modeller that I just mentioned you can buy as a subscription OR you
can buy 'tokens'
and then use the modules on a daily, or weekly, or monthly basis.
Indeed, I considered doing this with Machining Extensions, but the
short-term use rates
are high and so a subscription is preferred if you can afford it. As
it turns out I could just scrape enough cash together to renew the
subscription.

I think I remember their subscription rates being (only slightly!)
objectionable.? This is when what I was doing with my software was
essentially free.? Hence my slightly biased view of their subscription
program.? It gives them more revenue, can be pushed as the "don't use it
don't pay for it" approach,? and in a sense (for me) causes me to pay
for what I had already purchased.... or upgrades thereto).

What annoyed me was the total lack of a single price hobby license,
which was good for version 8.xx, or 9.xx, etc.

I think they're trying to fold it into Fusion 360, which you must have
to have EAGLE.....

Their latest version, of course.

I could be wrong about all the above, but that's what I got with several
emails to (and from) them.

Harvey

Craig
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey
White <madyn@...>
*Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:55 pm
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
You and I are not playing in the same field.? You make a living from
this, I do not.? Your expenditures are written off against profits (and
may be deductable).

Anything I spend is deducted against my wallet.... <grin>

not the same thing at all.

I don't remember that Autodesk had a "hobbiest/educational" license that
gave you 4 x 6 inch boards.? I likely missed it.? I think that their
attitude was, small boards are fine (2 x 3?). You want more, you pay.? I
had no problem with that, but they had no hobby licenses with the same
provisions.? That certainly left me out.? I'd much have preferred a 60
or so dollar upgrade (since I had a license).? That vanished.? My yearly
expenditures would have been more than I paid for the upgrade.

So nope....

good that you fit within their sales model, though.? I do not.

And no, when I mentioned some of the above, all the sales-droid said was
"well, you can always not pay when you don't use it....."

And sometimes that works, and sometimes it don't....

They makes their choices, they sells their product..... or maybe not.

I'm sure that the latest version of EAGLE does wonders for you. I'm a
bit troubled about (rumors?) that Eagle is not being developed.? I hope
for the people who are on subscription services that they fold EAGLE
into a workable product.

Harvey


On 8/17/2023 8:36 PM, joeaverage wrote:

Hi,
I on the other hand get what I pay for. I could not make a living
without Fusion, about 50%-50% CAD/CAM? and PCBs

???? Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the

individual... I

???? asked.? They pretty much said so.

That is contrary to my experience. I have just renewed the Machining
Extensions subscription and to make it more affordable
they discounted quite heavily to ensure my continued custom. At
$2012NZD (including local tax) it is still not cheap but it sure is

value.

Craig

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Harvey
White <madyn@...>
*Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 12:10 pm
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
This is all a matter of taste.? I don't have the money to throw at
autodesk.

If they are seriously considering killing EAGLE (not that I personally
care), then that really messes up a lot of people unless they

migrate to

whatever Autodesk is selling this time.

Nope, free edition is not good enough, I do 100 MM square boards.?

I had

paid for 7.7, use 7.7, then Autodesk said "ok, it's obsolete, start
paying us money."? I didn't like that.? YMMV (and did).

Oh, and Autodesk doesn't care about the cost to the individual... I
asked.? They pretty much said so.

I just don't use $500 dollars a year worth of design services, and

that

$500/year would pay for my PC board bill....

As for the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the idea of Linux

(and open

source) to be rather attractive.

And yes, my 7.7 license is the "hobby/educational" version, which,

quite

frankly, I find somewhat limiting, depending on the project.

The 4x4 board is more determined by the price point of Chinese

factories

than EAGLE.

Just to loop this back to pcbgcode, I did a lot of boards with toner
transfer, and doing double sided boards without plated through

holes can

be a bit miserable.? Toner transfer gave me finer resolution (TFQ-100
and TFQ-144) then milling.? Just that my designs are digital, high
speed, and REALLY need plated through holes.? As such, they got beyond
my ability to make, especially when I did designs that required 4

layers.

Oh, and did the wire stitching on Vias.? Worked, but no vias under
surface mount parts.

Didn't last for long.

Wonder if Kicad and pcbgcode might be a possible future.

Harvey



On 8/17/2023 6:48 PM, joeaverage wrote:

Hi,
at first I very much disliked the Autodesk Subscription and the

Cloud

based model, but have come to realise that its not as bad as I had

feared.

Firstly, Fusion is a very good package, good CAD, good CAM, good
Electronics module, good FEA, good Simulation etc for approx.
$500USD/year.
If you were to try to get the same functionality you'd have several
different vendors all charging and it would work out a lot more than
Fusion Basic.

The CAD/CAM part of Fusion is functionally equivalent to an

entry PRO

level version of Mecsoft, RhinoCAD, BobCad, ....etc. All those PRO
entry level packages cost around $2000-$2500
perpetual plus annual maintenance if you want it. Solidworks and
Mastercam are at another level again, many thousands, if not tens of
thousands.

Fusion (Basic) represents good value, even if you don't like paying,
its still good,? cheap software.

I also have a Fusion Machining Extensions package that cost about
$2000NZD/year ($1200USD) over and above the Fusion Basic

subscription.

This gives me simultaneous
four and five axis, toolpath editing , collision avoidance. If I
wanted the same from the competition that functionality costs
$10,000USD or more, plus maintenance and more, _much more_
again for Solidworks and Mastercam. Fusion Machining Extensions are
good value.

It is the _value_ that has slowly swayed my opinion from being very
against a Subscription to favourable.

The second issue is the Cloud. I did not like it, and am still not
that impressed. The problem is your internet speed and

reliability. If

you are fortunate enough to have reliable
internet then the Cloud model is fine. I live rurally and with

patchy

internet from home?Fusion is just frustrating under those
circumstances. At work, in the city its fine.
I've heard complaints about data security....but all my business
records and accounts are on the Cloud, and entirely probably my tax
records, medical records
and so on. Whether we like it or not data is going to the Cloud,

much

important data is already there, and the wheels have not fallen

off. I

have no complaints about the Cloud
other than on those few occasions where the internet slows or stops.

Craig

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of
joeaverage <joe.average@...>
*Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 10:16 am
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
Hi,
I have a Fusion 360 subscription that I got particularly because of
EAGLE. As it turns out I use so many other features of Fusion that I
could not
run my business without it. Especially using Fusion CAD to make PCB
sketches is VASTLY SUPERIOR to EAGLE. You can sketch a PCB as
intricate as you like
with all the CAD tools that Fusion has but EAGLE does not.

Thereafter

with Fusion you can generate a PCB from the sketch and import it

into

the Fusion Electronics package.
I use it extensively....if you haven't tried it you haven't lived!

There are just a few little quirks where I find the Fusion

version of

EAGLE lags the real thing, but otherwise I have been using

Fusion for

PCBs for three years plus.
The only thing that I really dislike, and have raised repeatedly

with

Autodesk, is that when Autodesk ported EAGLE they changed something
about EAGLEs Pour function
which in turn means that PCB-Gcode does not work....to my great

annoyance.

To counter this I export my Fusion Electronics PCB design back into
EAGLE so I can use PCB-Gcode. Its a hassle I would rather avoid

but it

works fine and after several years
its become second nature.

Autodesk have promised to fix Fusion Electronics such that PCB-Gcode
works.....butb it has not happened and that after several years
pestering them about it.

Craig

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Art
Eckstein <art.eckstein@...>
*Sent:* Friday, 18 August 2023 3:10 am
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [pcbgcode] It’s been twenty years… #pcbgcode
Like you, still sticking with what works. I run eagle on win10, but
know that if windows pulls it stunt of not allowing some versions of
software to run cause its "to old", that I can pull up my virtual
machine in whatever flavor OS I want! Just something to consider

when

your XP machine finally expires.

Country


On 8/17/2023 10:37 AM, sang kang via groups.io wrote:

As the old saying goes, it it isn't broke don't fix it. I still run
Windows XP with old version of Eagle and PCB Gcode.
It does for me what my hobby is concerned. I do see lot of new
hardware/software emerging in the market but why reinvent the wheel
when it works, just go with it.

My only grief is buying parts for the old CNC/Computer is becoming
harder but I've bought parts stocked up now to out last my interest
in this fascinating hobby.