Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
Thank you Duane, as always. The issue for me isn't privacy but a more user-friendly atmosphere. So I don't mind people I don't know joining and looking in. I'll consider your invitation suggestion, though.?
-P.?
On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 12:58 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
The problem is the Direct Add message, not the Welcome Message.
Final thoughts here.? Why not just invite them instead of Direct Add?? You'd still have some boilerplate in the invitation, but you can insert additional information from an Invite notice or customize further before sending.? The Invite and the Welcome would be sent separately, so possibly less annoyance.? You wouldn't even need a premium group for that.
Of course, you always have the option of going back to your personal email method.
If you're going to keep paying for the group, why not add a subgroup to allow members to discuss things?
I notice that your group isn't restricted, so anyone can join at any time.? Also, the message archive is public, so anyone can read that as well.
Duane
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Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
Peter, Join the beta group here at the link Duane provided earlier: and state your suggestion with this at the end of the subject line: #Suggestion like: Subject: Change Direct Add Message #Suggestion and start a discussion. The groups.io owner will see it. There will be some discussion about it and then the owner will likely comment. Donald ---------------------------------------------------- Some ham radio groups you may be interested in: /g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng/g/CHIRP
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 12:58 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
The problem is the Direct Add message, not the Welcome Message.
Final thoughts here.? Why not just invite them instead of Direct Add?? You'd still have some boilerplate in the invitation, but you can insert additional information from an Invite notice or customize further before sending.? The Invite and the Welcome would be sent separately, so possibly less annoyance.? You wouldn't even need a premium group for that. Of course, you always have the option of going back to your personal email method. If you're going to keep paying for the group, why not add a subgroup to allow members to discuss things? I notice that your group isn't restricted, so anyone can join at any time.? Also, the message archive is public, so anyone can read that as well. Duane -- Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 06:58 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I don't see why two separate messages have to be sent. Why not a single Welcome message with something extra added in the case of a Direct Add? Seems redundant and probably adds to my friends' annoyance.
We seem to be going round in circles and repeating your point of view here is not going to get you anywhere.? I suggest you read Duane's post ( #44070) again. Regards Andy
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
The problem is the Direct Add message, not the Welcome Message.
Altering?the Welcome message might indeed help to solve the problem. However, the?two messages appear to be sent out at the same time if a direct add is done and so the user is 50% likely to see the Direct Add message first. First impressions are lasting ones.
I don't see why two separate messages have to be sent. Why not a single Welcome message with something extra added in the case of a Direct Add? Seems redundant and probably adds to my friends' annoyance.
-P.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:52?PM W David Samuelsen < sammyslc@...> wrote: What is wrong with including your preferred message in the WELCOME message when one subscribes to join?
I never had anyone turned off by welcome messages containing nuanced warnings.
David Samuelsen, owner of several lists.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 8:18?PM Arno Martens < snetram@...> wrote: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 17:43:52 -0400, "Peter S. Shenkin" <shenkin@...>,? wrote:
? ? ? ? >It does not compromise legality.
Have you received a legal written opinion about that?
? ? ? ? >For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the
? ? ? ? >legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that
? ? ? ? >would always be present.
? ? ? ? >That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the
? ? ? ? >Owner.
Mark Fletcher *is* the owner.
Arno
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
What is wrong with including your preferred message in the WELCOME message when one subscribes to join?
I never had anyone turned off by welcome messages containing nuanced warnings.
David Samuelsen, owner of several lists.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 8:18?PM Arno Martens < snetram@...> wrote: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 17:43:52 -0400, "Peter S. Shenkin" <shenkin@...>,? wrote:
? ? ? ? >It does not compromise legality.
Have you received a legal written opinion about that?
? ? ? ? >For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the
? ? ? ? >legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that
? ? ? ? >would always be present.
? ? ? ? >That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the
? ? ? ? >Owner.
Mark Fletcher *is* the owner.
Arno
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
The group owner, obviously, is what I was referring to. C'est moi, in this case.
?
-P.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:18?PM Arno Martens < snetram@...> wrote:
[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
? ? ? ? >That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the
? ? ? ? >Owner.
Mark Fletcher *is* the owner.
Arno
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
Tue, 13 Jun 2023 17:43:52 -0400, "Peter S. Shenkin" <shenkin@...>, wrote:
>It does not compromise legality.
Have you received a legal written opinion about that?
>For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the
>legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that
>would always be present.
>That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the
>Owner.
Mark Fletcher *is* the owner.
Arno
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
Peter, I've never had anyone tell me that the boilerplate text turned them away from the group, so I can't say it would help me. It wouldn't hurt my groups, so my only concern would be if it can't be moved due to legal reasons. Consider that people tend to dismiss reading introductions like that, or of just about any kind. How many just click "I agree" to the conditions and privacy notice when signing up for something like this, without reading any of it? If they read any of it, it will be the first paragraph or two. Donald On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 19:04:38 -0400, "Peter S. Shenkin" <shenkin@...> wrote: I agree that it might not pass the "who cares" test. So far, I'm the only one who cares! ---------------------------------------------------- Some ham radio groups you may be interested in: /g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng/g/CHIRP
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
I agree that it might not pass the "who cares" test. So far, I'm the only one who cares!
?
-P.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 6:51?PM Donald Hellen < donhellen@...> wrote:
I don't see it changing. It has to meet the standards of the EU as well as other
jurisdictions. They may actually require the legal stuff first. If that's the
case, it won't be changed.
To suggest this change, you need to bring this up in the Beta group. It also has
to pass the "who cares?" test, in other words, it has to benefit a large number
of groups without adverse impact to other groups, and also must still meet
international legal requirements. Bring it up in Beta and see where it goes.
Donald
[Excess quote trimmed by moderator]
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
I don't see it changing. It has to meet the standards of the EU as well as other jurisdictions. They may actually require the legal stuff first. If that's the case, it won't be changed. To suggest this change, you need to bring this up in the Beta group. It also has to pass the "who cares?" test, in other words, it has to benefit a large number of groups without adverse impact to other groups, and also must still meet international legal requirements. Bring it up in Beta and see where it goes. Donald On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 14:47:29 -0700, "Andy Wedge" <andy_wedge@...> wrote: That may be your view but I'm guessing, as has also been stated before, that the current format has been reviewed by legal professionals which is why it is how it is. ---------------------------------------------------- Some ham radio groups you may be interested in: /g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng/g/CHIRP
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:44 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
It does not compromise legality.?
?
For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that would always be present.
That may be your view but I'm guessing, as has also been stated before, that the current format has been reviewed by legal professionals which is why it is how it is. Regards Andy
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
It does not compromise legality.?
For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that would always be present.
That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the Owner.
-P.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 5:40?PM Chris Jones via <chrisjones12= [email protected]> wrote: On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 08:37 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
It is needed because Mark Fletcher (who owns Groups.io) recognises that he has a legal responsibility to ensure that his Company observes the law; what you are asking for effectively strips him and Groups.io of that responsibility and delegates it to individual group owners who may (or may not) include that which is legally required into some messages. In his position I don 't think I would countenance any such delegation. What might or would happen if a group owner failed to incorporate material that is legally required??
Furthermore the "officially required boilerplate" is probably already as concise as the company's legal advisers will allow it to be, and burying it in a footer is simply not appropriate; "small print" has an unhappy reputation and putting it into a footer would effectively reduce it to the status of small print.?
I am very much with Greg D when he writes?I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion.
Chris.?
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 08:37 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
It is needed because Mark Fletcher (who owns Groups.io) recognises that he has a legal responsibility to ensure that his Company observes the law; what you are asking for effectively strips him and Groups.io of that responsibility and delegates it to individual group owners who may (or may not) include that which is legally required into some messages. In his position I don 't think I would countenance any such delegation. What might or would happen if a group owner failed to incorporate material that is legally required?? Furthermore the "officially required boilerplate" is probably already as concise as the company's legal advisers will allow it to be, and burying it in a footer is simply not appropriate; "small print" has an unhappy reputation and putting it into a footer would effectively reduce it to the status of small print.? I am very much with Greg D when he writes? I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion.Chris.?
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
If the legally required information?is expressed concisely in a footer, similar (to but not exactly the same as) the footer that appears at the bottom of this message, then the narrative part could be anything the Owner wishes.
-P. -P.
I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on
jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text,
which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion. Alternatively
they could require a legal review of everyone's submitted text, which
would be cost prohibitive.? Yay, 21's century...
Forcing the specific legal text to be included in a footer or such
probably meets the requirement, so to me this would be a viable
alternative.? Probably a matter for discussion on the Beta forum.
Greg
Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
> But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as
> the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially
> required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and
> the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On 2023-06-13 13:41, Peter S.
Shenkin via groups.io wrote:
And
as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could
concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired
message could then replace the official text entirely.
You can suggest changes or whatnot regarding this in the group, that's where
new features, bugs, changes, etc, are posted and discussed, and
where management reads and participates, GMF is a user-to-user
group.
But
I don't see why official?wording is needed at all . . .
It's called C.Y.A.
.
. . just as long as the required information is present.
Since you've done dev work in the past, you should know that this
would be very hard to code, i.e. to check if the way
some person phrased the required legalese text meets the legalese
requirements.? It would require some very advanced AI software and
even then there's no guarantee, anytime one gets into coding for
semantics it becomes very hard with a higher than usual failure
rate, not too mention that there's other languages besides English
and groups.io is working on supporting other languages as well, so
it would get really messy really quick.
Cheers,
Christos
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion. Alternatively they could require a legal review of everyone's submitted text, which would be cost prohibitive.? Yay, 21's century...
Forcing the specific legal text to be included in a footer or such probably meets the requirement, so to me this would be a viable alternative.? Probably a matter for discussion on the Beta forum.
Greg
Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
Right now, it is the middle of the official message, neither before nor after it.
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
-P.
What I think would help is if the added message would appear above
the default text, not under it.? With our small-screen,
short-attention-span environment, the first impression is "What is
this stuff.? Swipe to trash...".? Putting our introduction first
should solve that.
Greg
Bruce Bowman wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed
the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when
I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the
default message. My own message is the italicized part of the
following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each
subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance
to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such
information in your custom notice.
I expected
that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do
a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and
other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.
Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io
Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message.
It states it quite clearly to me.
As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.
In order to even have a chance at a change, you'd have to request it on the since this is a peer-to-peer group not monitored by Groups.io management. Duane -- Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal
I already said that I included all the information (as far?as I know) in my own message, which I expected would replace the officialese. There is nothing I saw in the documentation?that said that the procedure I followed would not work in the obvious way.
The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message. As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.
And no, the Officialese does not have to be included at all. "Officialese" is a style of expression. What has to be included are certain?legal requirements which I stated fully (as far as I can see) in my own way.
You are quite right that I referred to the Welcome message in my original email. But I followed the instructions for creating my own Direct Add message, and again, there is nothing in those instructions to indicate that this procedure would not replace the existing Direct Add message.
I have already (above and earlier) suggested an improvement which would allow a full replacement to take place; namely, by concisely stating the bare minimum requirements concisely in a required?footer.
-P.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:41?AM Duane < txpigeon@...> wrote: On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese
Based on most interpretations of worldwide law, the "officialese" has to come first so folks can easily leave if they want.? Of course, spammers don't pay any attention to minor things like laws.
Duane
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Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
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Peter S. Shenkin
Duane
Andy Wedge
Christos Psarras