I don't know how much this counts as a data point, but during some recent research on template engines in Java I found that the search results on GitHub were clogged up with people who had a go at the template engine TDD kata from Lasse Koskela's?"Test Driven" book. So some people somewhere are/were learning and teaching the technique.
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 09:01, Ted M. Young [@jitterted] <tedyoung@...> wrote:
Not sure what it means, but at the just-ended Kansas City Developer Conference, there were two talks specifically on TDD. They had decent attendance, and did not seem to be preaching to the converted. How effective that¡¯ll be in terms of change? Little directly, I¡¯d assume, but since the goal of a talk is to show what¡¯s possible, there may be some folks who might want to try out TDD.
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment? One TDD speaker listed as resources Kent Beck¡¯s book on TDD and Kent C. Dodds post ¡°¡±, which is not exactly a useful resource in this context??().
Is that enough? I don¡¯t think so. Clearly the resources by Grenning, Rainsberger, Hill, Jeffries, Reid, Farley, et al, are not getting known enough to become mentioned often enough (if at all).
I do agree that trying to get to developers who are just starting out seems to be more effective, because they have less to unlearn and less experience to throw away (which humans don¡¯t like to do).
It might be a problem with the description- I find that people respond if they feel they can speak to half the listed requirements, especially if they feel the work is exciting and rewarding. How is your team¡¯s network? Any contacts with students or people studying your business? Maybe a vendor may have ideas, too, for social meetings. I find it is just as effective to hire the first person your team finds who can do the work- and that you can afford. (But my business doesn¡¯t require specialized talent. Attitude and training can fill any role I have open on the team. Your requirements are doubtless more exacting and precise.)
Sent from my iPhone, because you're perfect just the way you are.
Not sure what it means, but at the just-ended Kansas City Developer Conference, there were two talks specifically on TDD. They had decent attendance, and did not seem to be preaching to the converted. How effective that¡¯ll be in terms of change? Little directly, I¡¯d assume, but since the goal of a talk is to show what¡¯s possible, there may be some folks who might want to try out TDD.
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment? One TDD speaker listed as resources Kent Beck¡¯s book on TDD and Kent C. Dodds post ¡°¡±, which is not exactly a useful resource in this context??().
Is that enough? I don¡¯t think so. Clearly the resources by Grenning, Rainsberger, Hill, Jeffries, Reid, Farley, et al, are not getting known enough to become mentioned often enough (if at all).
I do agree that trying to get to developers who are just starting out seems to be more effective, because they have less to unlearn and less experience to throw away (which humans don¡¯t like to do).
--
Ted M. Young
Principal Java Trainer & Learning Designer
Twitter:
YouTube:
Web:
?
TDD on Platform work (was: Now that Reddit is dying...)
I'm also currently working on platform work. How do you use tdd in platform work? I'm struggling with it. Or do you setup chaos engineering instead?
Not having experience in that domain, I don't have a ready answer for you. I do think this might be a good place to explore the topic, though.
- George
-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * George Dinwiddie * Software Development Consultant and Coach ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, folks. When we had the idea to rescue this group several years ago, I wondered what would happen, even though I had no concrete plan for it. The most I've done so far is lightly promote this group to my TDD training course participants. We seem to be in the grip of the Wiki Death Spiral: nobody writes here because nobody reads here because nobody writes here. No complaints, no blame, no shade; just facts. Now that Reddit is dying in a similar way that Twitter has been dying, I wonder whether the time is right for some kind of renaissance here. I think I'd enjoy that. I find the social media landscape too fragmented. The next generation of programmers doesn't have a clear place to get advice from knowledgeable and experienced practitioners. I hope they stumble upon this place. I know that I needed it when I was their age. I don't have any particular request nor any particular news to share, other than this vague hope. I might even pay more attention to this place myself. :) Cheers, -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: tdd.training <>?:: jbrains.ca <> :: blog.thecodewhisperer.com <> Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration. -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: <> :: <> :: <> Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002 _._,_._,_
-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * George Dinwiddie * Software Development Consultant and Coach ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
@SleepyFox - I'm with you in not liking JavaScript. I'm reminded of my first experiences programming C - 30+ yrs ago. The people working around were creating an undisciplined mess. JS is so bad that I've started a note in my notetaking tool so I can write about all of my grumbles. It's less about passing exams - she got a 97 in the course and I only provided coaching help in two places (assembly language and the final assignment). It's about fanning a passion, growing her skill and helping her appreciate good code.
@Andrew Good reminder of the pragprog crowd, the books don't seem to come through in your email. FWIW I just looked there and they're seriously advanced for ?a relative beginner. (We only just learned to use async await as syntactic sugar last week).
@Matteo thanks for reminding me of Greg, he's a fellow Canadian therefore I'm required to love anything he does on principle.
The ScrumTrainers Mailing list (my dark side) suggested:?The Art of Readable Code: Simple and Practical Techniques for Writing Better Code - which turns out to be a damn good book.
Thanks to all Mark
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
Test-Driving JavaScript Applications (started, have not finished) https://pragprog.com/titles/vsjavas/test-driving-javascript-applications/
Simplifying JavaScript (I have read) https://pragprog.com/titles/es6tips/simplifying-javascript/
Rediscovering JavaScript (I have read) https://pragprog.com/titles/ves6/rediscovering-javascript/
Modern Asynchronous JavaScript (started, have not finished) https://pragprog.com/titles/fkajs/modern-asynchronous-javascript/
As for a book on TDD, I found Kent Beck's TDD By Example great (but it's using C#) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/387190.Test_Driven_Development
Although not about "development" the updated Refactoring Book is JavaScript (I think the original was Java) https://martinfowler.com/books/refactoring.html
On June 24, 2023, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
Charlie - code smell is a better choice. However the impassioned answer about haunting her from beyond the grave was way more fun.
Cheers Mark
-- Sent with
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
This interface doesn't give much in the way if identification, so for these sort of questions you might want to consider signing with an actual name. (See screenshot for how it looks)
Is it OK to post job ads on this forum? The reason I'm considering it is that we'd like to find a tech lead with good TDD in a region where I don't have local connections and what we've seen so far has been unimpressive (for reasons that others have mentioned).
I enjoy the PragProg series.? They have a book of testing and JS
<IMG_1258.PNG>
And three others on pure JS (I have read the the second and third)
<IMG_1259.PNG>
On June 24, 2023, Sleepyfox <sleepyfox@...> wrote:
JavaScript, particularly front-end JS, is a tyre fire. I've been a part of the JS community since 2010. Common usage is driven by fashion (currently React) and tooling is ferociously complicated. There don't appear to be any books that teach JavaScript by using TDD, because TDD is (still, after >20 years) an incredibly niche practice. Most front-end peeps still don't TDD, as such book publishers probably recognise that if you want to learn JS, you probably aren't interested in TDD. There are plenty of books that teach TDD, and plenty of books that teach JS. You'll have trouble enough finding a book that teaches front-end JS that is anywhere near current practice, because current practice changes so quickly. Crockford's book is great, but you surmised correctly that it is only useful once you've already learned JS. All I can offer you is the advice that if you search for 'JavaScript', you will get everything from latest (ES2023, or ES14) to original JS circa 1995. At least if you search for 'ES6' instead, or even 'ES2020' you are going to get more relevant search results.
We used to say "don't start by teaching people Java, try something simpler, like JavaScript', but now JS is IMHO more complicated than Java. I'm sorry it is not what you wanted to hear, but my advice would be to get through the JS portion of the course and to concentrate on Java. Personally I think Python is a better introduction to programming than either JS or Java, but if your daughter is learning to pass exams, then you need to stick to the curriculum :( Head-first Java by Kathy Sierra is an excellent introduction, and Effective Java by Joshua Bloch is the definitive next step guide to idiomatic Java programming.
On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 07:27, Matteo Vaccari <matteo.vaccari@...> wrote: > > The book ¡° Software Design by Example: A Tool-Based Introduction with JavaScript : Wilson¡± seems to match what you¡¯re looking for; I only just started reading it but I like it so far > > On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 01:23 Al Chou via groups.io <hotfusionman@...> wrote: >> >> I've never used Java much, nor JavaScript, so the good books on becoming a good programmer I can think of don't give examples in those languages, and they also tend to use the idioms of the languages they do use for examples, and those idioms don't always have an analog in Java (modern JavaScript has adopted many of them, though). But IIRC, the examples in https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/387190.Test_Driven_Development are in Java. >> >> >> Al >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:43:28 PM PDT, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote: >> >> >> David - thanks as always for responding in any context. >> >> I haven¡¯t so much decided on the programming language, as her class taught her JavaScript. Next year they will do Java. I¡¯ve started to investigate JavaScript because it is the language I¡¯m weakest in. In addition, while I don¡¯t like JavaScript, as a young programmer it will part of what she is paid to use. >> >> Her overall goal become a good programmer and learn good habits early. I came here (and not Reddit) because I trust the technical acumen and general taste of this group. >> >> JavaScript the Good Parts - I know it. I¡¯ve skimmed it myself. It doesn¡¯t fit (from what I can tell), because it doesn¡¯t teach much about the basics of programming, It assumes you know JavaScript. She knows variables, functions, conditionals, loops. She has used objects but only has a passing understanding. She really needs a good example that pulls her through learning JavaScript/Java in depth. >> >> (Sad note - 15yrs after Crockford¡¯s book, JavaScript is no better) > >?
-- Sent with
-- Sent with
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
JavaScript, particularly front-end JS, is a tyre fire. I've been a part of the JS community since 2010. Common usage is driven by fashion (currently React) and tooling is ferociously complicated. There don't appear to be any books that teach JavaScript by using TDD, because TDD is (still, after >20 years) an incredibly niche practice. Most front-end peeps still don't TDD, as such book publishers probably recognise that if you want to learn JS, you probably aren't interested in TDD. There are plenty of books that teach TDD, and plenty of books that teach JS. You'll have trouble enough finding a book that teaches front-end JS that is anywhere near current practice, because current practice changes so quickly. Crockford's book is great, but you surmised correctly that it is only useful once you've already learned JS. All I can offer you is the advice that if you search for 'JavaScript', you will get everything from latest (ES2023, or ES14) to original JS circa 1995. At least if you search for 'ES6' instead, or even 'ES2020' you are going to get more relevant search results.
We used to say "don't start by teaching people Java, try something simpler, like JavaScript', but now JS is IMHO more complicated than Java. I'm sorry it is not what you wanted to hear, but my advice would be to get through the JS portion of the course and to concentrate on Java. Personally I think Python is a better introduction to programming than either JS or Java, but if your daughter is learning to pass exams, then you need to stick to the curriculum :( Head-first Java by Kathy Sierra is an excellent introduction, and Effective Java by Joshua Bloch is the definitive next step guide to idiomatic Java programming.
On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 07:27, Matteo Vaccari <matteo.vaccari@...> wrote:
The book ¡° Software Design by Example: A Tool-Based Introduction with JavaScript : Wilson¡± seems to match what you¡¯re looking for; I only just started reading it but I like it so far
On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 01:23 Al Chou via groups.io <hotfusionman@...> wrote:
I've never used Java much, nor JavaScript, so the good books on becoming a good programmer I can think of don't give examples in those languages, and they also tend to use the idioms of the languages they do use for examples, and those idioms don't always have an analog in Java (modern JavaScript has adopted many of them, though). But IIRC, the examples in are in Java.
Al
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:43:28 PM PDT, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
David - thanks as always for responding in any context.
I haven¡¯t so much decided on the programming language, as her class taught her JavaScript. Next year they will do Java. I¡¯ve started to investigate JavaScript because it is the language I¡¯m weakest in. In addition, while I don¡¯t like JavaScript, as a young programmer it will part of what she is paid to use.
Her overall goal become a good programmer and learn good habits early. I came here (and not Reddit) because I trust the technical acumen and general taste of this group.
JavaScript the Good Parts - I know it. I¡¯ve skimmed it myself. It doesn¡¯t fit (from what I can tell), because it doesn¡¯t teach much about the basics of programming, It assumes you know JavaScript. She knows variables, functions, conditionals, loops. She has used objects but only has a passing understanding. She really needs a good example that pulls her through learning JavaScript/Java in depth.
(Sad note - 15yrs after Crockford¡¯s book, JavaScript is no better)
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
The book ¡°?Software Design by Example: A Tool-Based Introduction with JavaScript : Wilson¡± seems to match what you¡¯re looking for; I only just started reading it but I like it so far
On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 01:23 Al Chou via <hotfusionman=[email protected]> wrote:
I've never used Java much, nor JavaScript, so the good books on becoming a good programmer I can think of don't give examples in those languages, and they also tend to use the idioms of the languages they do use for examples, and those idioms don't always have an analog in Java (modern JavaScript has adopted many of them, though).? But IIRC, the examples in??are in Java.
Al
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:43:28 PM PDT, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
David - thanks as always for responding in any context.
I haven¡¯t so much decided on the programming language, as her class taught her JavaScript. Next year they will do Java. I¡¯ve started to investigate JavaScript because it is the language I¡¯m weakest in. In addition, while I don¡¯t like JavaScript, as a young programmer it will part of what she is paid to use.
Her overall goal become a good programmer and learn good habits early. I came here (and not Reddit) because I trust the technical acumen and general taste of this group.
JavaScript the Good Parts - I know it. I¡¯ve skimmed it myself.?It doesn¡¯t fit (from what I can tell), because it doesn¡¯t teach much about the basics of programming, It assumes you know JavaScript. She knows variables, functions, conditionals, loops. She has used objects but only has a passing understanding. She really needs a good example that pulls her through learning JavaScript/Java in depth.
(Sad note - 15yrs after Crockford¡¯s book, JavaScript is no better)
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
I've never used Java much, nor JavaScript, so the good books on becoming a good programmer I can think of don't give examples in those languages, and they also tend to use the idioms of the languages they do use for examples, and those idioms don't always have an analog in Java (modern JavaScript has adopted many of them, though).? But IIRC, the examples in??are in Java.
Al
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 04:43:28 PM PDT, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
David - thanks as always for responding in any context.
I haven¡¯t so much decided on the programming language, as her class taught her JavaScript. Next year they will do Java. I¡¯ve started to investigate JavaScript because it is the language I¡¯m weakest in. In addition, while I don¡¯t like JavaScript, as a young programmer it will part of what she is paid to use.
Her overall goal become a good programmer and learn good habits early. I came here (and not Reddit) because I trust the technical acumen and general taste of this group.
JavaScript the Good Parts - I know it. I¡¯ve skimmed it myself.?It doesn¡¯t fit (from what I can tell), because it doesn¡¯t teach much about the basics of programming, It assumes you know JavaScript. She knows variables, functions, conditionals, loops. She has used objects but only has a passing understanding. She really needs a good example that pulls her through learning JavaScript/Java in depth.
(Sad note - 15yrs after Crockford¡¯s book, JavaScript is no better)
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:44?AM Avi Kessner <akessner@...> wrote:
A boolean parameter means you have two functions crammed together, and they should therefore be two different functions.
Most importantly though, nobody reading the code can know what that boolean means without diving deep, and could easily use it backwards or understand it backwards.
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 17:36 David Rosenstrauch <darose@...> wrote:
On 6/22/23 5:23?PM, Mark Levison wrote:
> On the way we encountered a JavaScript function that took a boolean
> parameter, so the code read like: FooBar(..., True). We discussed why
> this is a poorly written function and then I promised: "I promised even
> if I'm fifty years dead, I will return from the grave too haunt her if
> she ever writes a method that accepts a boolean parameter."
Alright, I'll bite:? what is the issue you see with having a boolean
parameter?
DR
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:18 PM, Mark Levison <mark@...> wrote:
?IntelliJ - I assume you mean webstorm? Or is this regular IntelliJ with a plugin?
Either way, no. Programming is no longer my professional work. I dabble:?, but would rather leave the paid technical coaching/training work to people like JB, Jeff, Tim, Mike etc. (I went to the dark side a few years ago).
So I don¡¯t pay for an IDE. I¡¯ve been using VS Code and my daughter thinks that it is massively better than the ¡°Blackboard¡± tool the teacher provided.
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
IntelliJ - I assume you mean webstorm? Or is this regular IntelliJ with a plugin?
Either way, no. Programming is no longer my professional work. I dabble:?, but would rather leave the paid technical coaching/training work to people like JB, Jeff, Tim, Mike etc. (I went to the dark side a few years ago).
So I don¡¯t pay for an IDE. I¡¯ve been using VS Code and my daughter thinks that it is massively better than the ¡°Blackboard¡± tool the teacher provided.
Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
To set aside the discussion for a moment? Are you using intellj? The warnings alone saved me from some missing awaits. And always worth exploring the suggestions.?
Frank Carver
Mark Levison
Sleepyfox