Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Many devs are still doing test-after.
I paired with a guy on my team who is doing so - and he was having the whole idea difficult to understand: after all, isn’t a test something you do to see how something works?
And he is not the only one, by any means. Getting people to write unit tests in general is still a battle, and most TDD sources I see appear to be “preaching to the converted.” I wonder if it would be useful to use this list to strategize on how to reach the rest.
----------------- Author, HttpUnit <http://www.httpunit.org> and SimpleStub <http://simplestub.meterware.com> Now blogging at <http://russgold.net/sw/>
Have you listened to Edict Zero <>? If not, you don’t know what you’re missing!
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On Jun 22, 2023, at 3:48 PM, Jon Reid <jon@...> wrote:
I'm here. Speaking in generalities, Swift devs as a whole are still getting used to test-after (and not even doing that for SwiftUI). Very few Swift folks are doing TDD.
________ Jon Reid,? My book?? ? ?? ???? Personal blog?
On Jun 22, 2023, at 12:00 PM, David Koontz < david@...> wrote:
I found this list via following JB's feed some where... and hoped I'd find some Swift Devs practicing Testing on here... that did not happen.
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
I'm here. Speaking in generalities, Swift devs as a whole are still getting used to test-after (and not even doing that for SwiftUI). Very few Swift folks are doing TDD.
________ Jon Reid,? My book?? ? ?? ???? Personal blog?
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On Jun 22, 2023, at 12:00 PM, David Koontz < david@...> wrote:
I found this list via following JB's feed some where... and hoped I'd find some Swift Devs practicing Testing on here... that did not happen.
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Re: Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
a) yes I had ChatGPT resolve some nasty CSS
interaction issues. It was conversationally incremental and reasonably
effective.
b) no I have not tried to get it to help with TDD.
I wonder about the converse. Can TDD be used (and sold in this context)
to help an AI assistant generate effective code?
Cheers,
Jeff
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| Jeff Langr / +1-719-287-4335
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Here
in the middle of 2023 we see an AI bubble in the stock market -
launched by OpenAI's release of ChatGPT. ?One can not turn on an info
feed without hearing about AI these days. ?It is hotter than... Crocks
at the Beach in Boca Chica Texas.
Have you used an AI assistant
to do any Dev work?
Have you used an AI assistant to help in TDD?
----
Have a look at this article and let me know if this helps
learning/practicing Testing as a first class responsibility role of
Developing.
TDD with Copilot (on Medium)
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Re: Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
Of course, the snippet used here is (intentionally) quite simple, and probably nothing like a real-world scenario. Generating insights from an LLM above and beyond small “toy” scenarios (more like PoCs than anything else) still will require a lot of work to guide the LLM down the path you want to go, and won’t substitute for the skill and knowledge of a developer any time soon.
Mike Emeigh -- Mike Emeigh
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
Here in the middle of 2023 we see an AI bubble in the stock market - launched by OpenAI's release of ChatGPT. ?One can not turn on an info feed without hearing about AI these days. ?It is hotter than... Crocks at the Beach in Boca Chica Texas.
Have you used an AI assistant to do any Dev work?
Have you used an AI assistant to help in TDD?
----
Have a look at this article and let me know if this helps learning/practicing Testing as a first class responsibility role of Developing.
TDD with Copilot (on Medium)
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Good points.
I wanted to add that lists are often maintained as "awesome <something>" on github. For example, "awesome python":
A search for "awesome unit testing" produces similar results: -Chuck
Whatever happens, I think communication continuity is the key. We should try to make sure people don't get left behind.
In this thread, I've heard about a subreddit, a youtube channel, a substack, and a discord, none of which I was familiar with before. How many on Reddit even know this list, the youtube channel, the substack, or the discord exist?? How can we keep people informed about the various venues for communication? I'd suggest a page on the C2 Wiki, but that looks like it hasn't really been updated in seven years or so.
Some other communities have a "This Week in ..." newsletter that gets curated and widely cross posted on a regular basis. Something like?that may be useful?to coalesce the TDD community.?
I think this group is significant in learning TDD and refactoring, and I'm following up and picking things up whenever I have time.
As far as I can tell,? what is being said is not as important as how often it is being said, so I think there needs to be a cadence like once every 1-2 weeks where we can post videos/topics regarding TDD and refactor to help people learn more about it.
So a couple of options I have seen it's working, like a continuous delivery youtube channel of Dave Farley, substack tidying up of Kent Beck, or Samman Technical group or Calgary Software Crafter group where we practice ensemble/TDD/refactoring.
I think there are lots of topics to talk about in terms of TDD/refactor/ensemble. However, I think it's essential to create a group of organizers so the organizers can pick up the slack from each other because constancy is the key, and keeping the flow going is essential.
Another idea is to join forces with Technical Samman Coach (or Calgary Software Crafters, shameless plugs) to have a higher impact and reach. We have a group of organizers to pick up the slack from each other and do similar things.
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Maybe it is my bad mood ... but lots of things are dying (just saw Google Domains sold to SqSpace are they still alive?) - and we humans are better at denial than acceptance as a WAY, as part of LIFE. ?Death is nourishment for the young.
As I look at the message list and count the messages/year ... it appears to have died again.
I found this list via following JB's feed some where... and hoped I'd find some Swift Devs practicing Testing on here... that did not happen.
I may linger on here for a while... but ... well the "space" seems empty. ?Shout if you can HEAR US!
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Whatever happens, I think communication continuity is the key. We should try to make sure people don't get left behind.
In this thread, I've heard about a subreddit, a youtube channel, a substack, and a discord, none of which I was familiar with before. How many on Reddit even know this list, the youtube channel, the substack, or the discord exist?? How can we keep people informed about the various venues for communication? I'd suggest a page on the C2 Wiki, but that looks like it hasn't really been updated in seven years or so.
Some other communities have a "This Week in ..." newsletter that gets curated and widely cross posted on a regular basis. Something like?that may be useful?to coalesce the TDD community.?
I think this group is significant in learning TDD and refactoring, and I'm following up and picking things up whenever I have time.
As far as I can tell,? what is being said is not as important as how often it is being said, so I think there needs to be a cadence like once every 1-2 weeks where we can post videos/topics regarding TDD and refactor to help people learn more about it.
So a couple of options I have seen it's working, like a continuous delivery youtube channel of Dave Farley, substack tidying up of Kent Beck, or Samman Technical group or Calgary Software Crafter group where we practice ensemble/TDD/refactoring.
I think there are lots of topics to talk about in terms of TDD/refactor/ensemble. However, I think it's essential to create a group of organizers so the organizers can pick up the slack from each other because constancy is the key, and keeping the flow going is essential.
Another idea is to join forces with Technical Samman Coach (or Calgary Software Crafters, shameless plugs) to have a higher impact and reach. We have a group of organizers to pick up the slack from each other and do similar things.
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Here's a link to a recent video on refactoring that I found interesting. Maybe a good topic for discussion:
? - Vaughn
On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 11:19:02 AM EDT, Tony Vo <ttrung.vo@...> wrote:
I think this group is significant in learning TDD and refactoring, and I'm following up and picking things up whenever I have time.
As far as I can tell,? what is being said is not as important as how often it is being said, so I think there needs to be a cadence like once every 1-2 weeks where we can post videos/topics regarding TDD and refactor to help people learn more about it.
So a couple of options I have seen it's working, like a continuous delivery youtube channel of Dave Farley, substack tidying up of Kent Beck, or Samman Technical group or Calgary Software Crafter group where we practice ensemble/TDD/refactoring.
I think there are lots of topics to talk about in terms of TDD/refactor/ensemble. However, I think it's essential to create a group of organizers so the organizers can pick up the slack from each other because constancy is the key, and keeping the flow going is essential.
Another idea is to join forces with Technical Samman Coach (or Calgary Software Crafters, shameless plugs) to have a higher impact and reach. We have a group of organizers to pick up the slack from each other and do similar things.
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
I think this group is significant in learning TDD and refactoring, and I'm following up and picking things up whenever I have time.
As far as I can tell,? what is being said is not as important as how often it is being said, so I think there needs to be a cadence like once every 1-2 weeks where we can post videos/topics regarding TDD and refactor to help people learn more about it.
So a couple of options I have seen it's working, like a continuous delivery youtube channel of Dave Farley, substack tidying up of Kent Beck, or Samman Technical group or Calgary Software Crafter group where we practice ensemble/TDD/refactoring.
I think there are lots of topics to talk about in terms of TDD/refactor/ensemble. However, I think it's essential to create a group of organizers so the organizers can pick up the slack from each other because constancy is the key, and keeping the flow going is essential.
Another idea is to join forces with Technical Samman Coach (or Calgary Software Crafters, shameless plugs) to have a higher impact and reach. We have a group of organizers to pick up the slack from each other and do similar things.
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
I really dislike how in discord you need to be invited, however, it seems to be where many are headed. brought to you by the letters A, V, and I
and the number 47
On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:07?PM J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hi, folks. When we had the idea to rescue this group several years ago, I wondered what would happen, even though I had no concrete plan for it. The most I've done so far is lightly promote this group to my TDD training course participants. We seem to be in the grip of the Wiki Death Spiral: nobody writes here because nobody reads here because nobody writes here.
No complaints, no blame, no shade; just facts.
Now that Reddit is dying in a similar way that Twitter has been dying, I wonder whether the time is right for some kind of renaissance here. I think I'd enjoy that. I find the social media landscape too fragmented. The next generation of programmers doesn't have a clear place to get advice from knowledgeable and experienced practitioners. I hope they stumble upon this place. I know that I needed it when I was their age.
I don't have any particular request nor any particular news to share, other than this vague hope. I might even pay more attention to this place myself. :)
Cheers,
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Now that Reddit is dying...
Hi, folks. When we had the idea to rescue this group several years ago, I wondered what would happen, even though I had no concrete plan for it. The most I've done so far is lightly promote this group to my TDD training course participants. We seem to be in the grip of the Wiki Death Spiral: nobody writes here because nobody reads here because nobody writes here.
No complaints, no blame, no shade; just facts.
Now that Reddit is dying in a similar way that Twitter has been dying, I wonder whether the time is right for some kind of renaissance here. I think I'd enjoy that. I find the social media landscape too fragmented. The next generation of programmers doesn't have a clear place to get advice from knowledgeable and experienced practitioners. I hope they stumble upon this place. I know that I needed it when I was their age.
I don't have any particular request nor any particular news to share, other than this vague hope. I might even pay more attention to this place myself. :)
Cheers,
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
In the previous post, by "understand", I mean are specialists in both the topic and how to research that topic.
On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 11:50 AM Steven Gordon < sgordonphd@...> wrote: I would not advocate engineering faculty attempting to apply sophisticated social science research techniques, partly because it takes years of work to learn how to do it right and partly because it is detrimental to your career.? What I would advocate is interdisciplinary research involving both people who understand software development and people who understand how groups of people work.? There are still the problems of where to publish such research that both silos would accept and who would actually be qualified to evaluate such research.
I was part of a group trying to do that in 2002-3, but we found no journal or conference who considered it to be in their purview.? Some pure social science research was successfully published.
Perhaps some pointers to examples of research you approve of would have helped here?
If the developer experience is better, present some concrete evidence, not just that it feels better.? Maybe, developer retention in the real world?? (Do developers stay longer at companies that practice TDD?)
I would have thought that when talking about developer experience, "feeling better" is potentially a valid data point.
Totally agree on using social research approaches for this. Helen Sharp (Open University) did some interesting observational studies, including one of my team at the time. She had a certain amount of opposition from the more "hard-core engineering" colleagues in her department, which was short sighted on their side.
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
I would not advocate engineering faculty attempting to apply sophisticated social science research techniques, partly because it takes years of work to learn how to do it right and partly because it is detrimental to your career.? What I would advocate is interdisciplinary research involving both people who understand software development and people who understand how groups of people work.? There are still the problems of where to publish such research that both silos would accept and who would actually be qualified to evaluate such research.
I was part of a group trying to do that in 2002-3, but we found no journal or conference who considered it to be in their purview.? Some pure social science research was successfully published.
Perhaps some pointers to examples of research you approve of would have helped here?
If the developer experience is better, present some concrete evidence, not just that it feels better.? Maybe, developer retention in the real world?? (Do developers stay longer at companies that practice TDD?)
I would have thought that when talking about developer experience, "feeling better" is potentially a valid data point.
Totally agree on using social research approaches for this. Helen Sharp (Open University) did some interesting observational studies, including one of my team at the time. She had a certain amount of opposition from the more "hard-core engineering" colleagues in her department, which was short sighted on their side.
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
Perhaps some pointers to examples of research you approve of would have helped here?
If the developer experience is better, present some concrete evidence, not just that it feels better.? Maybe, developer retention in the real world?? (Do developers stay longer at companies that practice TDD?)
I would have thought that when talking about developer experience, "feeling better" is potentially a valid data point. Totally agree on using social research approaches for this. Helen Sharp (Open University) did some interesting observational studies, including one of my team at the time. She had a certain amount of opposition from the more "hard-core engineering" colleagues in her department, which was short sighted on their side.
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
I fully?agree with Steve's comments, and I'd like to add that even if you did pursue the avenue of developing the same system using the non-Agile methods, and without TDD, and then developing the same system using Agile methods, and using TDD, you'd still be short of reaching a proper scientifically sound conclusion, as you'd also need a clean slate/mind before venturing to develop the mentioned systems.?
In other words, the issues you'd run into while developing system A, would have an impact on the process of developing system B, and vice-versa.
There's a famous philosopher, Paul Ree, who explored the issues of and for his mental experiment he imagined a donkey standing between two piles of hay, and to cut the story short, he posited that given the same donkey, in the same exact situation, with same environment and same piles of hay, he'd always make the same decision and always make the same choice. This mental experiment was the basis for his argument for determinism... the main problem was that you could never, ever perform this experiment, as you could never, ever have the same donkey, in the same environment, with two same piles of hay, twice.
Best regards, Petar
I read it.
The theoretical portion was not new to me, having done?TDD and Agile,?taught it in University and customer sites, and wrestled with how to actually prove it is better for several years.? The survey added nothing because it is exactly what should be expected from a survey of interested practitioners of any technique.? I am exactly as convinced that Agile TDD is a great way to develop software after?reading it as I was before.?
If the code quality is better, present some new concrete evidence.? Many have tried, but the code compared is always too trivial to be convincing that it is a better technique in the real world in general.? There is a reason for that - it would be hugely expensive to develop the same system using TDD and using something else in order to have code bases to compare.? Furthermore, if the TDD code was not developed using Agile methods, then TDD would not be fully exploited.? But if the comparison system was not also developed using the same Agile methods, then it could be argued the better code was partially due to Agile practices other than TDD.? If you take that approach, then for all your efforts, all you proved was that Agile is better with TDD.? ?It is a tricky problem that I eventually decided was not worth the cost and effort to pursue.
If the developer experience is better, present some concrete evidence, not just that it feels better.? Maybe, developer retention in the real world?? (Do developers stay longer at companies that practice TDD?)
If it was a master's thesis, I would give it an A (although I would have tried to convince the student to tackle a more concrete topic).? I do not see how the paper advanced the very difficult academic topic of whether TDD is better than the alternatives and why.
If you are still reading, Software Development is more a people problem than a technical problem.? Researching it using social science research methodologies will bear more fruit than using engineering research methodologies.? Any serious social scientist would scoff at the survey designs and experiment designs that have been used in Software Development research.
I am all open to criticism to improve the work BUT you need to read the paper first.
The survey is just one evidence I've used, there is a strong theoretical component in the paper. The survey is almost a bonus part.
I am also not looking at code quality in the paper, but at other dimension -- developer experience.
Best,
Pedro
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
I read it.
The theoretical portion was not new to me, having done?TDD and Agile,?taught it in University and customer sites, and wrestled with how to actually prove it is better for several years.? The survey added nothing because it is exactly what should be expected from a survey of interested practitioners of any technique.? I am exactly as convinced that Agile TDD is a great way to develop software after?reading it as I was before.?
If the code quality is better, present some new concrete evidence.? Many have tried, but the code compared is always too trivial to be convincing that it is a better technique in the real world in general.? There is a reason for that - it would be hugely expensive to develop the same system using TDD and using something else in order to have code bases to compare.? Furthermore, if the TDD code was not developed using Agile methods, then TDD would not be fully exploited.? But if the comparison system was not also developed using the same Agile methods, then it could be argued the better code was partially due to Agile practices other than TDD.? If you take that approach, then for all your efforts, all you proved was that Agile is better with TDD.? ?It is a tricky problem that I eventually decided was not worth the cost and effort to pursue.
If the developer experience is better, present some concrete evidence, not just that it feels better.? Maybe, developer retention in the real world?? (Do developers stay longer at companies that practice TDD?)
If it was a master's thesis, I would give it an A (although I would have tried to convince the student to tackle a more concrete topic).? I do not see how the paper advanced the very difficult academic topic of whether TDD is better than the alternatives and why.
If you are still reading, Software Development is more a people problem than a technical problem.? Researching it using social science research methodologies will bear more fruit than using engineering research methodologies.? Any serious social scientist would scoff at the survey designs and experiment designs that have been used in Software Development research.
I am all open to criticism to improve the work BUT you need to read the paper first.
The survey is just one evidence I've used, there is a strong theoretical component in the paper. The survey is almost a bonus part.
I am also not looking at code quality in the paper, but at other dimension -- developer experience.
Best,
Pedro
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
I am all open to criticism to improve the work BUT you need to read the paper first.
The survey is just one evidence I've used, there is a strong theoretical component in the paper. The survey is almost a bonus part.
I am also not looking at code quality in the paper, but at other dimension -- developer experience.
Best,
Pedro
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
I'll add what I always say about such papers:
We all agree with the motivations - it is preaching to the choir.
The surveys mean nothing because of the bias in the sample being surveyed.
To me, such work is not worthy?of publication unless it contains objective?measures that strongly indicate?the code is better (less bugs?, more maintainable?, faster to production?) than the other professional alternatives.
Steven Gordon, PhD
TL;DR:
TDD is good not only in terms of how it helps the design, but it also favor our mental conditions to be more productive.
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Re: paper: Test-Driven Development Benefits Beyond Design Quality: Flow State and Developer Experience
TL;DR:
TDD is good not only in terms of how it helps the design, but it also favor our mental conditions to be more productive.
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David Koontz
J. B. Rainsberger
Pedro Calais