Re: Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
I did an interesting experiment with ChatGPT recently, going through a BDD cycle with it.
A worry I have about the use of these tools is that there will be a tendency to trust code does what was intended, but never verifying that is the case. Something we are quite familiar with in TDD, but aggravated?by the ease of generating complex chunks of code.? I was thinking the answer was in a feedback loop, and tried building in a familiar one. It was only a small experiment, though I'm eager to spend some time on a more extensive one.
The flow was roughly: - Describe a feature, including some of the business/application it fits in - Ask GPT to generate Gherkin Illustrative scenarios for the feature (getting to illustrative, and explicit examples, took a few tries, but it got there) - Verify that the scenarios were complete and minimal (complete: we think so, minimal: it came up with unrelated requirements, so we needed to tweak that, felt very much like a normal session with a PO and team) - Ask GPT to extract a Domain Language from the description (definitions, to make it easy to feed into later sessions) - Ask it to generate the glue code / implementation of the gherkin scenarios - Ask it to implement the code that would implement the scenarios
This got results that worked, and did not have any code that did things we did not ask for. Which I thought was pretty impressive. That statement was from a check by me, though. It might be a good cautious step to ask GPT to ensure there's no code not exercised by the tests.
We did a second run through this, extending the feature (we used a simple shopping basket?example, extending it with taxes, and discount codes). This worked best by feeding in the generated domain language and scenarios, and then taking it from there.
In its current form, I could see limitations simply by the amount of memory available for the model, though that might prompt (heh) the user to think well about modularisation.? All in all, I liked the process, and it went pretty fast once we figured out how to ask for the right type of response.
Wouter
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:20?PM J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: ? I have used GitHub Copilot in my hobby project¡ª it¡¯s javascript and I don¡¯t know the language well, so it often suggests code that¡¯s better than what I would write. It does work with TDD, sort of.
?The main issue is that it will suggest production code that does more than strictly needed for the current test; often guessing the complete function on a single shot.? Then I have the choice to delete it and write the bare minimum, or to keep it and ask Copilot to write the missing tests.
I can imagine using ChatGPT in the same way that I have in the past
used CodeWars: to read small bits of other people's code as a mechanism
to help me learn a language incrementally, especially its idioms.
I have not yet tried it with any serious effort at building something I care about keeping. J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: TDD on Platform work (was: Now that Reddit is dying...)
I only have limited experience with it, but have tried some things.
Using Pulumi (which basically is a layer on top of terraform) made my life a lot easier coding infrastructure. It also allows for some level of testing that does not necessarily need deployment of the whole.?
I tend to only learn the details of different cloud environments as needed, and forget them immediately after, so a lot of my work with these tools is exploratory. I was moderately happy being able to split parts of the code that were not infrastructure-specific off into functions and test that I was generating the right combination of configurations. I only did a few of the mocked based testing of infrastructure components. More to get a feel of how they worked than of a necessity in the circumstances. Building more on any specific environment I would've started using this more.
In infra teams, or real devops teams, I've usually gotten to a point where monitoring was part of a definition of done. So changes in infrastructure would always get changes in monitoring too. That's important, but doesn't give me the same type of feedback as testing.
In orgs that are strong on compliance and risk, I've done a couple of projects where a really strong structural comparison between the expected state (SOLL) and actual state (IST) was part of infrastructure deployment. Parts of that could be handled by tools (ansible, terraform) that report on whether they needed to perform a change to get to the intended state. For other parts we build custom scripts/code to report things like access rights to files and folders, defined users and groups, network and?firewall config, etc. All those were part of the deployment pipeline, so we had a pretty strong check on state of infrastructure, and were always thinking about how to 'prove' an infrastructure / config change behaved as expected.
Different types of tests for different purposes, but maybe it helps a little in finding what you are looking for.
Wouter
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 4:14?AM George Dinwiddie < lists@...> wrote:
Avi,
On 6/23/23 11:46 AM, Avi Kessner wrote:
> I'm also currently working on platform work.
> How do you use tdd in platform work? I'm struggling with it. Or do you
> setup chaos engineering instead?
Not having experience in that domain, I don't have a ready answer for
you. I do think this might be a good place to explore the topic, though.
? - George
--
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
? ?* George Dinwiddie *? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ?Software Development? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ?Consultant and Coach? ? ? ? ?
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 2:23?PM David Koontz <david@...> wrote:
I assume you searched Discord and did not find a TDD feed. So set one up yourself. Then send invites¡
That¡¯s how it is done. - Do it!
Well. The reason I raised the idea here first is because some people dislike Discord, for whatever reason. And IMO it's pointless to create a server in the absence of community support. Without a core of people willing to put in the effort to support and evangelize it, it'll just be a ghost town in the making that people can point to and claim "See? No one cares about TDD, it's dead". -- Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder@... fediverse: @hassan@... Consulting Availability : Silicon Valley or remote
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Re: Prompt: Why do you still care about TDD?
I use TDD because like Russell, I have tried many things, including Structured Development, Model-Driven Development, CASE, Formal Specification, and many others. They have promised much and delivered little. TDD Just Works(TM).
Fox ---
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, 15:52 Frank Carver via , <frank.carver= [email protected]> wrote: On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 14:21, J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hi, folks. Why do you still care about TDD? Please skip the platitudes and write from the heart. Why does it still matter to you? Why do you still practise it? How does it still help? Why do you still teach it?
I use TDD because without it I feel increasingly uneasy, in the same way that I feel increasingly uneasy if I don't use version control. The longer I go without TDD, the less I trust my code and my design and the more stressed I get waiting for the inevitable screw-up.
Frank. ?
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Re: Prompt: Why do you still care about TDD?
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 14:21, J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hi, folks. Why do you still care about TDD? Please skip the platitudes and write from the heart. Why does it still matter to you? Why do you still practise it? How does it still help? Why do you still teach it?
I use TDD because without it I feel increasingly uneasy, in the same way that I feel increasingly uneasy if I don't use version control. The longer I go without TDD, the less I trust my code and my design and the more stressed I get waiting for the inevitable screw-up.
Frank. ?
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Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
> Alright, I'll bite: ?what is the issue you see with having a boolean parameter? To me, the thought process is actually the same for any parameter, but booleans stick out as particularly annoying. For any parameter there are essentially two use-cases when the method or function is called - a literal value or an opaque value passed onward from somewhere else (which in turn may be a parameter, some kind of calculation, the result of another function, etc.) - In the case where the parameter is a literal value, this is equivalent to calling a method or function where no parameter is needed because that value is implicit.? The design/refactoring question is therefore: Why not create and use that function instead?
- In the case where the parameter is just passed onward, the design/refactoring question becomes: Is there any more sensible way to use the value, maybe set a member variable early in the process, or maybe use it right now instead of deferring to another function?
The classic minimal boolean parameter scenario is something such as switchLight(boolean on_off). You see this kind of thing a lot in embedded programming, even when the boolean value is always literal and the use of two separate implicit methods would be both less ambiguous and more efficient: switchLightOn() and switchLightOff(), for example. Leo Brodie, and by extension Charles Moore who Leo quotes a lot, discuss es this kind of thing and a lot of other technical/philosophical concerns in the book Thinking FORTH.
On Jun 22, 2023, at 3:24 PM, Mark Levison < mark@...> wrote: > She would like a book(s) that will help learn to be a good programmer. Many of the best programmers I know got that way by exposure to different languages and different paradigms. As well as the above mentioned Thinking FORTH I would recommend Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns by Kent Beck, and almost anything you can find about LISP or APL. All of these have something different to offer which can shed a light on how best to use the language and tools you have available. And also don't forget the classic language-independent writing such as Jon Bentley's Programming Pearls books. If she?really want s to take it to the next level, then some time working with assembly language will help you develop that 'gut feeling' for when a solution is bloated or too complex for its own good. These days I recommend Risc-V as a good assembly language to start with.Frank.
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Re: Prompt: Why do you still care about TDD?
I have spent my career looking for ways to do software better - to improve productivity and quality and reduce rework. I tried all kinds of techniques, including formal structured analysis and design, and automated tools whose names I no longer recall. TDD is the first one I have found which actually delivers. It lets me build code more quickly and change it when needed.?
I see unit tests as having four main functions: 1. regression detection (much faster than functional tests) 2. supporting refactoring 3. driving development 4. documenting behavior much more reliably than comments
Unit tests that were created for the purpose of driving the code tend to be a better job at the other functions than do tests written afterwards for the purpose of improving code-coverage numbers.
TDD also leads to software components built as components, with good information hiding. The usual proclivity of developers is to see a problem and immediately search for the algorithms and data structures needed to implement it - and those then become the core abstraction that the codebase must know. A change in algorithm for better performance then becomes a major deal. That should not happen with TDD used properly.
----------------- Author, HttpUnit <http://www.httpunit.org> and SimpleStub <http://simplestub.meterware.com> Now blogging at <http://russgold.net/sw/>
Have you listened to Edict Zero <>? If not, you don¡¯t know what you¡¯re missing!
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 9:21 AM, J. B. Rainsberger <me@...> wrote:
Hi, folks. Why do you still care about TDD?
Please skip the platitudes and write from the heart. Why does it still matter to you? Why do you still practise it? How does it still help? Why do you still teach it?
Or not? -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Prompt: Why do you still care about TDD?
Still works for me when I need absolute confidence and want to take small steps into a large problem.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 4:21?PM J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hi, folks. Why do you still care about TDD?
Please skip the platitudes and write from the heart. Why does it still matter to you? Why do you still practise it? How does it still help? Why do you still teach it?
Or not? -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Prompt: Why do you still care about TDD?
Hi, folks. Why do you still care about TDD?
Please skip the platitudes and write from the heart. Why does it still matter to you? Why do you still practise it? How does it still help? Why do you still teach it?
Or not? -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
? I have used GitHub Copilot in my hobby project¡ª it¡¯s javascript and I don¡¯t know the language well, so it often suggests code that¡¯s better than what I would write. It does work with TDD, sort of.
?The main issue is that it will suggest production code that does more than strictly needed for the current test; often guessing the complete function on a single shot.? Then I have the choice to delete it and write the bare minimum, or to keep it and ask Copilot to write the missing tests.
I can imagine using ChatGPT in the same way that I have in the past
used CodeWars: to read small bits of other people's code as a mechanism
to help me learn a language incrementally, especially its idioms.
I have not yet tried it with any serious effort at building something I care about keeping. J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Indeed, David, we have the Wiki Death Spiral problem: no readers, therefore no writers, therefore no readers.
As far as I know, there is only one solution: more reading and more writing. Pick one.
On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 4:00?PM David Koontz < david@...> wrote: Maybe it is my bad mood ... but lots of things are dying (just saw Google Domains sold to SqSpace are they still alive?) - and we humans are better at denial than acceptance as a WAY, as part of LIFE.? Death is nourishment for the young.
As I look at the message list and count the messages/year ... it appears to have died again.
I found this list via following JB's feed some where... and hoped I'd find some Swift Devs practicing Testing on here... that did not happen.
I may linger on here for a while... but ... well the "space" seems empty.? Shout if you can HEAR US!
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
I think it depends very much what they're looking for.
- tutorials - comprehensive training courses - opinions, essay, blog posts, articles - a place to ask questions and get answers
I don't know how to make my training easier to find. I own tdd.training and testdrivendevelopment.training. :) I'm not quiet about this topic. Even so, I don't invest any money nor energy in SEO, so maybe I just don't know what I'm doing any more.
I resurrected this group hoping that it would become a new watering hole, but it became an echo chamber pretty quickly. Now that Reddit is collapsing, maybe this place gets a new lease on life.
Let's see.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 5:01?AM Ted M. Young [@jitterted] < tedyoung@...> wrote: Not sure what it means, but at the just-ended Kansas City Developer Conference, there were two talks specifically on TDD. They had decent attendance, and did not seem to be preaching to the converted. How effective that¡¯ll be in terms of change? Little directly, I¡¯d assume, but since the goal of a talk is to show what¡¯s possible, there may be some folks who might want to try out TDD.
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment? One TDD speaker listed as resources Kent Beck¡¯s book on TDD and Kent C. Dodds post ¡°¡±, which is not exactly a useful resource in this context??().
Is that enough? I don¡¯t think so. Clearly the resources by Grenning, Rainsberger, Hill, Jeffries, Reid, Farley, et al, are not getting known enough to become mentioned often enough (if at all).
I do agree that trying to get to developers who are just starting out seems to be more effective, because they have less to unlearn and less experience to throw away (which humans don¡¯t like to do).
--
Ted M. Young Principal Java Trainer & Learning Designer Twitter: YouTube:
Web:
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J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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We reserve the right to be annoyed by job ads, but we don't disallow them outright.
Is it OK to post job ads on this forum? The reason I'm considering it is that we'd like to find a tech lead with good TDD in a region where I don't have local connections and what we've seen so far has been unimpressive (for reasons that others have mentioned).
Thanks all,
S
?
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Searching for a book that helps introduce JavaScript or Java Programming?
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 11:36?AM David Rosenstrauch < darose@...> wrote:
On 6/22/23 5:23?PM, Mark Levison wrote:
> On the way we encountered a JavaScript function that took a boolean
> parameter, so the code read like: FooBar(..., True). We discussed why
> this is a poorly written function and then I promised: "I promised even
> if I'm fifty years dead, I will return from the grave too haunt her if
> she ever writes a method that accepts a boolean parameter."
Alright, I'll bite:? what is the issue you see with having a boolean
parameter?
I usually feel uncertain about what the boolean means, especially from reading only the invocation. I rarely regret replacing this with, at least, a symbol/enum/other intention-revealing value.
Not always, but quite close to always. J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Does an AI assistant help with learning/using TDD?
Have you used an AI assistant to do any Dev work?
Yes, I made a try where I had very few knowledge of the business to test if it can help to boot projects without business experts. The idea was to have something to show to attract business experts and see if it can enlight me when I don't understand the business quite well. I've used langchain with gpt4 api, and it seems to work well.
Have you used an AI assistant to help in TDD?
No, I've not found a good tool for that, my attempts with copilot were not successful, first I don't use vscode and github and then it takes more time finally than doing the job yourself. I'm watching in the hope I've enough time to try their "fill in the middle" feature for TDD someday. Has someone tried startcoder ? any feedback is welcome. thanks, Gregory
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Throughout history, long-form correspondence has been really important. The ¡°long form¡± bit seems to be important. For one thing (in my experience), writing a long-form communication is more likely to make you aware of the weak points in your argument. For another, length slows things down (both composition and reply), which gives people time to think. Thinking is good. Meme-ing (which is what the Damn Kids do today) is not about that, only about scoring points.
I also think that knowing your recipient won¡¯t read your emission for some goodly number of days encourages care.
That suggests to me a revival of blogs might be better than a revival of the mailing list. But.
I won¡¯t dispute that email thinking-through-problems isn¡¯t amazing. In my own experience (as a bystander), the design of Common Lisp mostly over email was unreasonably effective. This mailing list and the early Ruby mailing list and the extremeprogramming mailing list and the swtest-discuss mailing list were also really formative for me.
But what I wonder is whether some of that oomph was because people were *trained* to do email effectively. Those habits were created because there was no faster-emotional-hit alternative, whereas now there is.?You can¡¯t have a successful reintroduction of opium in a world where fentanyl is cheaper and easier to consume.
(Note: I speak as someone who made 126,300 tweets (including retweets) on Twitter before I abandoned it. So I understand the appeal of the fast emotional hit.)
A final thing that occurs to me is that the early mailing lists (and the C2 Wiki) had three characteristics: - it was easy to pay attention to high value posters. - it was easy(ish) to ignore low value posters. - there was a sort of mechanism by which newbies could demonstrate their value and become known as high-value posters.
(Maybe I¡¯m romanticizing it.)
It helped a lot that venues were low volume. (I used to read every word of the Ruby mailing list, and I distinctly remember the day at my inlaws over Christmas vacation that I just had to give up on keeping up.) That suggests the need for curation: people who are *paid* to filter the vast idea-o-sphere into something valuable to the readers. Think ¡°The Economist¡± or ¡°The New Yorker¡±, who still have some notion of selecting what their readers *need* to read. Compare ¡°The Washington Post¡± or the ¡°New York Times¡±, which have to some extent been forced to go over to clickbait.?
I guess I¡¯m thinking that the key problem in within-profession discussion these days is how to get and manage editors/curators of blog-style writings and, secondarily, mailing lists.
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On Jun 22, 2023, at 05:06, J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote:
Hi, folks. When we had the idea to rescue this group several years ago, I wondered what would happen, even though I had no concrete plan for it. The most I've done so far is lightly promote this group to my TDD training course participants. We seem to be in the grip of the Wiki Death Spiral: nobody writes here because nobody reads here because nobody writes here.
No complaints, no blame, no shade; just facts.
Now that Reddit is dying in a similar way that Twitter has been dying, I wonder whether the time is right for some kind of renaissance here. I think I'd enjoy that. I find the social media landscape too fragmented. The next generation of programmers doesn't have a clear place to get advice from knowledgeable and experienced practitioners. I hope they stumble upon this place. I know that I needed it when I was their age.
I don't have any particular request nor any particular news to share, other than this vague hope. I might even pay more attention to this place myself. :)
Cheers,
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ?:: ::
Replies from this account routinely take a few days, which allows me to reply thoughtfully. I reply more quickly to messages that clearly require answers urgently. If you need something from me and are on a deadline, then let me know how soon you need a reply so that I can better help you to get what you need. Thank you for your consideration.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
I assume you searched Discord and did not find a TDD feed. ?So set one up yourself. ?Then send invites¡?
That¡¯s how it is done. ?- Do it!
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On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:50 AM, Hassan Schroeder <hassan.schroeder@...> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:01?AM Ted M. Young [@jitterted] <tedyoung@...> wrote:
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment??
Has anyone considered setting up a TDD-focused Discord? There's a Slack (linked from?, no idea how active it is yet since I just joined) but some people prefer Discord.
And when it comes to getting help or encouragement, the real-time interactive nature of Slack/Discord is much better than an email list? or forum posting, IMO.
And "interactive" doesn't preclude having pinned content like "Getting? Started - Resources". Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder@...Consulting Availability : Silicon Valley or remote
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:01?AM Ted M. Young [@jitterted] <tedyoung@...> wrote:
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment??
Has anyone considered setting up a TDD-focused Discord? There's a Slack (linked from?, no idea how active it is yet since I just joined) but some people prefer Discord.
And when it comes to getting help or encouragement, the real-time interactive nature of Slack/Discord is much better than an email list? or forum posting, IMO.
And "interactive" doesn't preclude having pinned content like "Getting? Started - Resources". Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder@...Consulting Availability : Silicon Valley or remote
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
The best way I've found to start in TDD is pairing with a person who knows it. This series of free online events, open to people anywhere in?the world, offer just that. They have a fun, accepting learning environment.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 9:48?AM Jacqueline Lee < jmasonlee@...> wrote:
Do you know of any courses that are good for developers just starting out?
We get a lot of them at our club, and I¡¯d like to be able to point out some resources for them to learn.
Many see a regular TDD course and are very intimidated because they don¡¯t know what it is. We work really hard on relationships so that they get comfortable enough to ask questions in our regular activities.
Most don¡¯t work somewhere they are lucky enough to find a mentor that knows TDD, and they aren¡¯t ¡°valuable¡± enough yet for their company to pay for training.?
I¡¯ve been struggling with how to connect beginners to resources for a while.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 3:59 AM Frank Carver via <frank.carver= [email protected]> wrote: I don't know how much this counts as a data point, but during some recent research on template engines in Java I found that the search results on GitHub were clogged up with people who had a go at the template engine TDD kata from Lasse Koskela's?"Test Driven" book. So some people somewhere are/were learning and teaching the technique.
Frank.
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 09:01, Ted M. Young [@jitterted] < tedyoung@...> wrote: Not sure what it means, but at the just-ended Kansas City Developer Conference, there were two talks specifically on TDD. They had decent attendance, and did not seem to be preaching to the converted. How effective that¡¯ll be in terms of change? Little directly, I¡¯d assume, but since the goal of a talk is to show what¡¯s possible, there may be some folks who might want to try out TDD.
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment? One TDD speaker listed as resources Kent Beck¡¯s book on TDD and Kent C. Dodds post ¡°¡±, which is not exactly a useful resource in this context??().
Is that enough? I don¡¯t think so. Clearly the resources by Grenning, Rainsberger, Hill, Jeffries, Reid, Farley, et al, are not getting known enough to become mentioned often enough (if at all).
I do agree that trying to get to developers who are just starting out seems to be more effective, because they have less to unlearn and less experience to throw away (which humans don¡¯t like to do).
--
Ted M. Young Principal Java Trainer & Learning Designer Twitter: YouTube:
Web:
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Re: Now that Reddit is dying...
Do you know of any courses that are good for developers just starting out?
We get a lot of them at our club, and I¡¯d like to be able to point out some resources for them to learn.
Many see a regular TDD course and are very intimidated because they don¡¯t know what it is. We work really hard on relationships so that they get comfortable enough to ask questions in our regular activities.
Most don¡¯t work somewhere they are lucky enough to find a mentor that knows TDD, and they aren¡¯t ¡°valuable¡± enough yet for their company to pay for training.?
I¡¯ve been struggling with how to connect beginners to resources for a while.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 3:59 AM Frank Carver via <frank.carver= [email protected]> wrote: I don't know how much this counts as a data point, but during some recent research on template engines in Java I found that the search results on GitHub were clogged up with people who had a go at the template engine TDD kata from Lasse Koskela's?"Test Driven" book. So some people somewhere are/were learning and teaching the technique.
Frank.
On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 09:01, Ted M. Young [@jitterted] < tedyoung@...> wrote: Not sure what it means, but at the just-ended Kansas City Developer Conference, there were two talks specifically on TDD. They had decent attendance, and did not seem to be preaching to the converted. How effective that¡¯ll be in terms of change? Little directly, I¡¯d assume, but since the goal of a talk is to show what¡¯s possible, there may be some folks who might want to try out TDD.
The big question is: where will they go to learn and experiment? One TDD speaker listed as resources Kent Beck¡¯s book on TDD and Kent C. Dodds post ¡°¡±, which is not exactly a useful resource in this context??().
Is that enough? I don¡¯t think so. Clearly the resources by Grenning, Rainsberger, Hill, Jeffries, Reid, Farley, et al, are not getting known enough to become mentioned often enough (if at all).
I do agree that trying to get to developers who are just starting out seems to be more effective, because they have less to unlearn and less experience to throw away (which humans don¡¯t like to do).
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Ted M. Young Principal Java Trainer & Learning Designer Twitter: YouTube:
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Sleepyfox
Frank Carver
J. B. Rainsberger
Gregory Salvan
David Koontz