I forgot to mention that i am located in romania. I had some previous project resolved with a bulgarian company but they cannot place bga.s.

Sent from my iPad

On 14.06.2012, at 22:46, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo <miguelangel@...> wrote:

Hi Aurel,


tell me about your design at miguelangel@... and I could suggest you some houses depending on the target price
and design complexity.

Greetings,
Mike!

2012/6/14 aurelcristescu <aurelcristescu@...>

Hi. Does anyone know a pcb assembly house with low cost and bga cappability (1mm) in europe? This is of course for few protos and maybe small run later.
Thanks.




--

Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo

+34 636 52 25 69
skype: ajoajoajo

Hi. Does anyone know a pcb assembly house with low cost and bga
cappability (1mm) in europe? This is of course for few protos and
maybe small run later.
Thanks.

?

Hi Aurel,?

? ? ?tell me about your design at miguelangel@... and I could suggest you some houses depending on the target price

and design complexity.

? ?Greetings,?

Mike!

2012/6/14 aurelcristescu <aurelcristescu@...>

?

Hi. Does anyone know a pcb assembly house with low cost and bga cappability (1mm) in europe? This is of course for few protos and maybe small run later.
Thanks.

--

Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo

+34 636 52 25 69
skype: ajoajoajo

Hi Dan

I deleted all board outline and put it in again and it worked.
Thanks for your help.
Richard

On 13.06.2012 15:41, Dan Andersson wrote:

Richard,

Magnify your design and look for unconnected "dots" or very very short
tracks.

This happens sometimes when you have an undeleted track segment left.
These track segments can be extremely small and almost invisible -
still annoying thop'.

This is only a problem when exporting for auto routing.

//Dan, M0DFI

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:03:37 -0000
"richardhaldemann" <r-haldemann@... <mailto:r-haldemann%40ggs.ch>>
wrote:

Hi all
I have successfully created a schematics including all libs for

schema and footprints then placed the components on a board. Then I
tried the manual router but as my board is quite dense I could not
route it. I think the manual editing of PCB boards is not very
comfortable.

So I decided to extract the specctra DSN but could not create that file.
I get the following message (translated from German) IO_ERROR: Can

not find next segment with end point @ ( 90.424mm,62.738mm). Please
adjust the board outline so that it is connected/continuous. then some
path ...pcbnew/specctra.cpp: ThrowIOError() : line 119 Export not
possible. Please solve the problem and try again.

I have redrawn the pcb outline several times. I have started the

line in a different corner every time. It seems as if the start and
end of the line are causing a problem although I put the line on a grid.

What can I further try.
Regards
Richard

开云体育

Hi all
I have successfully created a schematics including all libs for schema and footprints then placed the components on a board. Then I tried the manual router but as my board is quite dense I could not route it. I think the manual editing of PCB boards is not very comfortable.
So I decided to extract the specctra DSN but could not create that file.
I get the following message (translated from German) IO_ERROR: Can not find next segment with end point @ ( 90.424mm,62.738mm). Please adjust the board outline so that it is connected/continuous. then some path ...pcbnew/specctra.cpp: ThrowIOError() : line 119 Export not possible. Please solve the problem and try again.
I have redrawn the pcb outline several times. I have started the line in a different corner every time. It seems as if the start and end of the line are causing a problem although I put the line on a grid.
What can I further try.
Regards
Richard

I could see a different lib for people that are more anal about this and something more useful for
people that get products out the door.

Hi Robert,

?Take Bernd's? advice regarding the circles since he has a copy of the standard.? (The last copy I had is so old that the circle only denoted the physical envelope, not necessarily a conductive package.) Also, from personal experience, a schematic with a lot of transistors really gets cluttered by the circles. But having said that, as I wrote before, the schematics I have from work still have that circle.


- Cirilo

________________________________
From: Bernd Wiebus <bernd.wiebus@...>
To: kicad-users@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Re: Comments About Eeschema


?
Hello Robert.

I will shrink
some components, so perhaps I should postfix the components with _SMALL
to eliminate clashes.?? Mainly I'll be shortening pin lengths.

Yes, i used this postfix method in my first attemp to create a library
when i noticed that my symbols were much too big......

Is it OK in IEC60617 to have circles around transistors??? I notice that
a circle is included when one of the electrodes is connected to the
envelope (and then you're supposed to show the connection with a dot),
but what about where there is no connection?

Of course, EN60617-5 contains as No. 05-05-02 only one example of a
transistor encapsulated with a circle for a housing and a dot for the
connection.

Furthermore EN60617-5 is modular, so it contains a lot of symbols of
typs of electric channels, intrinsic zones, multilpe gates and so on.
So you can create your fitting symbol for your transistor or diode.

But EN60617-5 contains no example of a single transistor housing as a
symbol....this circle just exist in this exampleNo. 05-05-02.

So No. 05-05-02 should not exist, or it implicides, that a circle is a
symbol for a (conductice) housing.

No. 05-07-01 and No. 05-07-02??do not fit in this system, too, because
they are symbols for a tube envelope, which can be steel, but used to be
glass or ceramic.

Now i am thinking about canceling the circles in the library. I used
them only for classic pipolar transistors. Theoretikal there should be
three alternative symbols for every transistor type: one without
housing, one with housing, but not connected, and one with a housing
connected to the collector (but what is with emitter connected
housings?) So it would be a bulky library with many seldom used symbols.
And i think, exactly this is the reason why the EN60617-5 is
modular.....

Today transistors with shielded housings are very uncommon. So it is
better to cancel the housings, and the few cases, where a housing is
importand, have to draw an extra circle around their transistors and tie
it where it fits.

?? I like having the circle because it shows at a glance that the part
has its own package, and by making part of the circle dashed one can
show at a glance that the tcomponent shares its package with other
devices (and therefore there will be fewer packages on the board).
By
way of example?? I've attached an image showing my own symbol for a
BC817DS, for which Yahoo Groups should provide a link.

Nice. About this way i didnt think yet.

Here the circle is mostly used by old people from the times when
transistors in round thin cans were common. Is also a taste of
nostalgie.

By the way: My EN60617-5 here, which is from 1996 and active, contains
44 pages. 3 pages pr?ambel, 15 pages about semiconductors and 26(!)
pages about tubes(!). ;O)

With best regards: Bernd Wiebus alias dl1eic

------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting your question.
Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked up by the creator of Kicad.
Please visit for details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad library.
For building Kicad from source and other development questions visit the kicad-devel group at ! Groups Links

________________________________
From: Robert <birmingham_spider@...>
To: kicad-users@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Re: Comments About Eeschema [1 Attachment]


?
[Attachment(s) from Robert included below]
In that case I'll go ahead with a basic set of symbols.?? I'll leave
Bernd's library alone, copying symbols as necessary.?? I will shrink
some components, so perhaps I should postfix the components with _SMALL
to eliminate clashes.?? Mainly I'll be shortening pin lengths.

Is it OK in IEC60617 to have circles around transistors??? I notice that
a circle is included when one of the electrodes is connected to the
envelope (and then you're supposed to show the connection with a dot),
but what about where there is no connection??? My PDF shows no circle.
I like having the circle because it shows at a glance that the part
has its own package, and by making part of the circle dashed one can
show at a glance that the component shares its package with other
devices (and therefore there will be fewer packages on the board).?? By
way of example?? I've attached an image showing my own symbol for a
BC817DS, for which Yahoo Groups should provide a link.

Regards,

Robert.

On 12/06/2012 00:15, Cirilo Bernardo wrote:

Hi Bernd,

Thanks for your responses.??I went through the KiCAD posts looking
for discussions on grid sizes; it looks like EESchema will retain the
mil grid (in all the posts I can find regarding grids, the devs say
they have no plans to change the schematic grid since there is no
great advantage to this). So I was mistaken; symbol standardization
can go on with the mil grid.??This does result in larger symbols
though since nodes are at 2.54mm rather than 2.0mm.

________________________________ From: Bernd
Wiebus<bernd.wiebus@...> To: kicad-users@... Sent:
Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [kicad-users] Re:
Comments About Eeschema



Hello Cirilo.

Have you seen Bernd Wiebus's EN60617 (aka IEC60617) kicad
library?



If it's correct (I have no reason to doubt that but I have
nothing to check it against, though maybe those Chinese sites
are worth exploring) I guess it would be a good place to start,
though personally I find Bernd's symbols too big.?? Is it the
latest standard?

Some of those symbols do comply with the IEC standard and many
that don't do comply with older standards.

If this is, it is marked by the symbols name. Thomething with
"old". In this cases, there are existing two symbols, one for the
old standard, ans one for the new. This is because here most people
like the old timed full black inductance boxes.....

But there are some "needfull things" among those EN60617 symbols,
wich are not EN60617, but this are normally not electronic devices,
with the exeption of "wire bridges". If desired, i could split this
library in two and purify the EN60617 part.

I suspected some people wanted older symbols; personally I think some
of the older symbols are prettier and for me they're easier to
understand. It would be good to keep the EN60617 compliant symbols in
their own directory+library since that will help a lot with the
standardization process and in the future if people have requirements
to use a specific symbol set it makes it easier for them to comply.

Anyway, as I said, what's important is that people can read the
schematics.

I think Bernd's symbols can't really be shrunk much more;

EN60617 makes no statements about the aspect ratio of symbols
(means wether a resistor "box" is lean or fat and something like
this). And for kicad i should not go away from the 50-50 raster for
easily drawing circuits without jumping into the engin room and
changing the raster.

That's one of the situations common with standards (lack of
implementation details).??In this case it just means choosing your
own settings based on what looks good and is easy to read; the grids
used might impose some restrictions on what you can draw and that may
be one reason the aspect ratio is not specified.

I'd say his symbols are OK, certainly usable, but most can be
improved (for example, the purists will howl about the line
connecting the vertices of the inductor symbols - and rightly
so). The problem as usual is time; building a good symbol set
takes an awful lot,

Yes. This is a time problem. But there are some other points
counted against creating a "new" library. And this is to be
compatible with older versions of this library. If i change them to
much, people will see gaps if the new symbols do not fit to the
same connections as the old do. This may not be an issue for an
experinenced kicad user, but for an necomer.

I agree 100%.??I was thinking there would be a metric and a mil set
of symbols, but for now it looks like EESchema will retain the mil
grid.

and at this point in time I'd recommend waiting for KiCAD to go
metric (internal units = nanometers) before spending time
building up standard symbols. However, if you look at the symbols
which come with KiCAD, very many (I can't say 'most' because I
haven't looked through the set and counted the bad ones) are not
only non-compliant with the latest IEC specifications, but I
don't recognize the symbols as IEC, IEEE, or ASME - some of the
symbols are such poor caricatures of standard symbols that they
will actually make a schematic difficult to read.

This is because there is not only a mixing between IEC, IEEE, ASME
ec. but with different ages of this librarys, too.

What I would like to see in the future is a standards-compliant
symbol set for KiCAD.??This can start with an IEC60617 directory
with libraries classified according to form or function - that
alone will give us many of the symbols we typically use - and
then people can contribute other symbols but those symbols will
need to be vetted before they're put into the library tree; once
you head down the path of standardization you really can't afford
any compromise - any symbols which have not been vetted will have
to go into a 'non-standard' directory branch.

Ok.

This is all somewhat academic at the moment.??KiCAD is certainly
usable as it is and although it would be great to start
implementing improvements, KiCAD also happens to be in a state of
development where it's probably best to hold back on making those
improvements.

The actual version of my EN60617 Library is RefE4. So send me your
suggestions for improvement.

With best regards: Bernd Wiebus alias dl1eic

Thanks Bernd,??for now I can't really comment since I don't have a
copy of the specifications or a current subscription to the database;
my previous comments such as the one about the wire crossing the
vertices of the inductor symbol was based on what I remember of
specifications ca. 1998.??I think for now, just keeping the standards
compliant symbols separate from the others and with perhaps a note in
the directory to give the name of the reference document is a good
step.??Hopefully in about a year I can put some effort into building
and checking symbols.


- Cirilo



------------------------------------

Please read the Kicad FAQ in the group files section before posting
your question. Please post your bug reports here. They will be picked
up by the creator of Kicad. Please visit for
details of how to contribute your symbols/modules to the kicad
library. For building Kicad from source and other development
questions visit the kicad-devel group at
! Groups Links




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circle on transistor symbol is used to indicate that this is discrete
component (individually packaged transistor - has nothing to do with
form or shape of package). transistors without circle therefore
indicate that they are part of IC circuit (look at schematics of opamp
or gates for example).