Re: 360 or something else?
This sounds like a really good opportunity for generative relationships (STAR) liberating structure to be used.? What an unfortunate circumstance here.? The generative relationships LS would afford the opportunity to work through these difficult relations and shine a light on behavior that perhaps the leader is blind to.? It is worth a shot.
Thank you and good luck.
Eric A. Keck VP of Customer Success ekeck@... 720-624-9885
Meet with me:? ?
? ? ? ????
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I am on the board of an organization where the ED really relies and esteems a staff member ¡ª but it seems the rest of the ?staff has a hard time with her and they do not see actual output of worth.? Do you have any ?suggestions for a way forward. I had considered a 360 type review- can you recommend one? ?¡ª and thoughts or experience? ¡ªI ?have read that they can be destructive of morale.?
This is a small newly growing NGO and other than this issue the morale and teamwork and trust is very hard. We want to preserve that!
Thanks! --
forgive typos!
Susan Partnow Sr. Certified Facilitator, Compassionate Listening Founding Director, Global Citizen Journey Co Founder, Seattle Restorative Justice 4425 Baker Ave NW Seattle, WA 98107 tel.?206-310-1203 fax?206-782-7786
?
? Partnow Communications, Organizational Development & Workshops
? ? Co- Founder ?? Co-Founder ? Director of Training ? National Coalition on Dialogue & Deliberation Advisor
My WhatsApp is +1 2063101203
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Re: 360 or something else?
I am on the board of an organization where the ED really relies and esteems a staff member ¡ª but it seems the rest of the ?staff has a hard time with her and they do not see actual output of worth.? Do you have any ?suggestions for a way forward. I had considered a 360 type review- can you recommend one? ?¡ª and thoughts or experience? ¡ªI ?have read that they can be destructive of morale.?
This is a small newly growing NGO and other than this issue the morale and teamwork and trust is very hard. We want to preserve that!
Thanks! -- forgive typos!
Susan Partnow Sr. Certified Facilitator, Compassionate Listening Founding Director, Global Citizen Journey Co Founder, Seattle Restorative Justice 4425 Baker Ave NW Seattle, WA 98107 tel.?206-310-1203 fax?206-782-7786
?
? Partnow Communications, Organizational Development & Workshops
? ? Co- Founder ?? Co-Founder ? Director of Training ? National Coalition on Dialogue & Deliberation Advisor
My WhatsApp is +1 2063101203
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Re: Emergent goal setting processes that push intersectional/new thinking
Hi Linda
?
In addition to the Liberating Structures approaches you might find it helpful to look at the participatory strategic planning process developed by the ICA.? There is a summary of it here:
? It¡¯s a useful and versatile approach to involve small to large groups in a collaborative planning process from ¡°strategic directions¡± (i.e. what practical actions do
we want to see in place ¨C to take you towards the vision you have) through to action.? What¡¯s neat about it is that it breaks into distinct segments and can be developed to combine synchronous and asynchronous working.
?
There are other Large Group Interventions that might be useful ¨C here¡¯s a summary of approaches which also includes some further references at the end -
?
A lot depends upon your needs, what technology your people are comfortable with and what outcomes you are keen to achieve.? If you want a longer conversation don¡¯t hesitate to message me.? I¡¯m sure
you¡¯ll get useful suggestions from others here.? ?
?
Good luck!
?
?
Best wishes
?
Mike
?
?
Mike Pounsford
www.linkedin.com/in/mikepounsford
@mikepounsford
?
Designing and Leading Conversations for Change
+44 (0) 1732 371 252
+44 (0) 7860 196 343
?
?

?
Hi all, from a mostly-lurker who has learned a lot from all of you!
I'm working with a group on developing their high level goals. They have a mission and vision. What they know is that some of the goals will be similar to what they've done before, and some will be new and outside current expertise. There is also a desire by
the board of the organization to break out of the old program "silos" and work in a more intersectional way.
The process is going to be primarily staff driven with board input at intervals. It definitely needs to engage current staff (many of whom have narrow expertise that is not intersectional) and potentially some other external voices TBD. I would love to engage
a large number of the staff in the process if possible, without taking up a ton of their time, though we could also have it be leadership driven. Even better if it can allow for asynchronous work for people in different time zones.?
I'm new to this (thus the lurking!). Does anyone have a place I can go to get started looking at methods for pushing the group to think in new ways about what new and more intersectional goals could be, in a liberating structures kind of way? I looked at Keith
McCandless and Johannes Schartau's piece on Liberating Strategy which seems potentially relevant. What other methods am I missing?
Thanks for any thoughts or good questions or anything else... with appreciation.
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Emergent goal setting processes that push intersectional/new thinking
Hi all, from a mostly-lurker who has learned a lot from all of you!
I'm working with a group on developing their high level goals. They have a mission and vision. What they know is that some of the goals will be similar to what they've done before, and some will be new and outside current expertise. There is also a desire by the board of the organization to break out of the old program "silos" and work in a more intersectional way.
The process is going to be primarily staff driven with board input at intervals. It definitely needs to engage current staff (many of whom have narrow expertise that is not intersectional) and potentially some other external voices TBD. I would love to engage a large number of the staff in the process if possible, without taking up a ton of their time, though we could also have it be leadership driven. Even better if it can allow for asynchronous work for people in different time zones.?
I'm new to this (thus the lurking!). Does anyone have a place I can go to get started looking at methods for pushing the group to think in new ways about what new and more intersectional goals could be, in a liberating structures kind of way? I looked at Keith McCandless and Johannes Schartau's piece on Liberating Strategy which seems potentially relevant. What other methods am I missing?
Thanks for any thoughts or good questions or anything else... with appreciation.
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Online Workshop: The Virtual Session Design Lab, July 7th & 8th
Hello Facilitators,?
I wanted to invite you to the summer edition of the Virtual Session Design Lab which will take place over two days next week, July 7th & 8th from 3pm to 6pm UK. ?The lab is designed to help participants improve their online facilitation and training skills by exposing them to adult learning methodologies and a workshop format known as ADIDS. We also provide an opportunity to design your own session and have your design peer reviewed by other participants. ?By the end of the lab you will have: a peer-reviewed virtual session design ready for implementationa greater understanding of how to run effective workshops and conveningsan understanding of how to approach choosing virtual tools and their potential impacts, along with best practices for engaging participants online.connections with others on a similar learning journey.Access to the Virtual Session Design Canvas - a tool to help you in your future session planning.
You can learn more here:??
Registration is 160 GBP, but anyone who is experiencing financial hardship during the pandemic may apply for a scholarship or a discount (see link at the bottom of the page). If you are interested in attending, do secure a ticket sooner rather than later as we do tend to sell out quickly!
Thanks!
Dirk
Dirk Slater @FabRider
+447903932817 Mobile/Signal @FabRider Twitter/Wire dirkslater Skype Improve your facilitation and training skills at The (Virtual) Session Design Lab ?-
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I planned vacations when I saw the results and postponed the Zoom to August...hopefully by then we will do it!? Thanks? -- Francois Lavallee , M.Sc. Organizational biologist
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Francois: I think you should go with the three who signed up, announce a time so others can attend, and publish a summary of your discussion and use the insights you gain to suggest an agenda for a late Aug call. You are not going to solve the issue with one conversation in any event. Sometimes the way to achieve critical mass is to start small and persevere, improving as you iterate.
My $.02. Sean Murphy 408-252-9676
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On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:49 AM Fran?ois Lavall¨¦e < flavallee@...> wrote: Hello group! There were only 3 participations on the Doodle I posted to plan for a live zoom discussion in July. I will push the dates in late August in case the vacations period is the reason for this low interests . Sorry Linda, Steve and Mike...we will try later!
This is the new Doodle
-- Francois Lavallee , M.Sc. Organizational biologist
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Hello group! There were only 3 participations on the Doodle I posted to plan for a live zoom discussion in July. I will push the dates in late August in case the vacations period is the reason for this low interests . Sorry Linda, Steve and Mike...we will try later!
This is the new Doodle https://doodle.com/poll/w7ynv5aaq74edpci?utm_source=poll&utm_medium=link -- Francois Lavallee , M.Sc. Organizational biologist
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This topic would be a really interesting topic to discuss in a Zoom meeting. Here is a Doodle link?
I will organize a 90 minutes discussion around this in the first week of July...if we have more than 10 participants.
-- Francois Lavallee , M.Sc. Organizational biologist
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My friends,?
We must also consider that besides the solo facilitation?fees you need to consider other meeting production costs.?
Software: The digital platform, for once, license per participant.?
Reporting and analytics: how and what will be offered, the customer may like to see who said what before and after the?meeting, what were the hot topics.?
Data storage: What and how would the records of the meeting be store, by whom.?
For a physical or hybrid event:? - neuland style workshop materials?? - video recording & audio for linking with external participants? - digital flipchart rental - wifi & streaming services
Best wishes
Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu? +34 667 643 688 Twitter:
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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 at 09:23, Bhavesh Patel < bhav@...> wrote: That's helpful and means: - 16 hours of prep + one full day of 8 hours = 24 hours for 3,000 Euro.
- 3000 Euro / 24 hours = 125 Euro an hour.
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 at 09:20, Sara Huang < sara@...> wrote: 
Bummer about the registration link, thanks for noticing Bill.
Here is the link to join: Tuesday,?June 8, 2 PM, CET:??

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That's helpful and means: - 16 hours of prep + one full day of 8 hours = 24 hours for 3,000 Euro.
- 3000 Euro / 24 hours = 125 Euro an hour.
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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 at 09:20, Sara Huang < sara@...> wrote: 
Bummer about the registration link, thanks for noticing Bill.
Here is the link to join: Tuesday,?June 8, 2 PM, CET:??
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Bummer about the registration link, thanks for noticing Bill.
Here is the link to join: Tuesday,?June 8, 2 PM, CET:??
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Saa,? That link sense like a dead end unless one is a part of ndb.? It asks to select timezone, but I can't see a bottom to move forward. William Aal Tools for Change unConference.net Farm Table
+1-206-719-9665 Schedule a meeting with me.
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On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 7:35 AM Sara Huang < sara@...> wrote: As @EliseKeith mentioned, Myriam Hadness has created a survey on pricing and will share her analysis. You are invited to this free, open & sense-making conversation on Tuesday,?June 8, 2 PM, CET bu signing up with this link
Warmly,
Sara
?
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FWIW for those still charging by the hour/day I suggest you read:? I just finished reading it. Even the small changes I've already made are making a noticeable difference.
Yes it is a chunk of change. If it wasn't we wouldn't take the advice - Mark
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As @EliseKeith mentioned, Myriam Hadness has created a survey on pricing and will share her analysis. You are invited to this free, open & sense-making conversation on Tuesday,?June 8, 2 PM, CET bu signing up with this link
Warmly,
Sara
?
www.bureautwist.nl/english
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Echoing/amplifying what Peggy said in response to Sarah:? Yes, it's often important for people to feel they have a voice and they are seen in meetings (especially people who are typically marginalized).? So breakout groups are your friend!? But I advise using breakouts *strategically* :? Before sending people into breakouts, everyone needs the message that breakout rooms are about *equal* voice around a specific prompt.??People who are accustomed to "having the stage" need to understand that this is not just "a smaller stage" for them to bloviate,?nor a practice run before they can do the same once breakouts end. And people who tend to *never* speak in large meetings need to understand that going into breakouts means that their voice is important for the others to hear.??Decide in advance if you want to hear verbal feedback after the breakouts (in which case each breakout should declare a spokesperson before the breakout ends), or via text in some manner (in which case each one needs a scribe), and let them know what to expect. Tell them that you're still managing the meeting (i.e. taking care of people who might get runover) even when they can't see you because they're in breakouts.? ?You'll give them 30 seconds or so to figure out speaker order, then you'll send announcements every X minutes ... and they need to honor the announcements or they'll cheat future speakers.? If possible, I advise keeping the groups to less than five and limiting each person to no more than three minutes or so.? Remind them that having more to say than time allows is actually a GOOD thing -- that means they can have richer conversations over breaks/after the session!? I also suggest a super-quick way of determining who will speak first, second, third ("If you're willing to speak first, gesture to the camera with your index finger raised. Even if there are more than one person?ready, it's much quicker than negotiating through the mics. Then others can hold up two fingers, three, etc.")? If they do that, then the first person may get a few extra seconds, but that might be good for the bloviators. You also need to give everyone a specific prompt, and then give them at least a minute or two of SILENCE to consider their responses before opening breakouts. (Because once you send them into the breakouts, the talkative ones will just start talking.)? Don't forget to send broadcast announcements, and also warn them before closing and "yanking" them back into the main room, and reminding them to select a spokesperson or scribe if you're getting feedback in the larger group, after.?
Sorry for the long post, but attending to all these details has been really meaningful in our work, so I thought writing them down might be helpful for you, too.? (I recently gave a TEDx talk "Making Zoom more Human and Humane" and this was a big part of it.)
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On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:15 AM Peggy Holman < peggy@...> wrote: Sarah,
If feeling heard is the primary purpose, something that I¡¯ve discovered that seems odd but true is that people don¡¯t have to be witnessed by everyone. So an approach I¡¯ve used is to create random groups ¡ª from 2 to 4 people depending on how much time is available ¡ª and offer a reflection prompt question. That means everyone gets airtime and is heard by others. Optionally, when you bring folks back together, you can invite anyone who wants to speak to the whole to do so and hear a few comments or invite a word, phrase, or sentence from everyone. Or any of the variety of written options, like the ones Bev suggested.
Peggy
Hello Whitney, we have found a Chatbox Storm to be the best way to bring learning from the BRs, whilst also uniting the group back together in the main space.
Whilst in the BRs we use google slide templates, so working from the same document each room completes the template for their respective number (ie BR1 uses slide 1) so the details feedback is already captured.
Our approach on their return to the main room is a virtual adaptation of the Liberating Structures Mad Hatters Tea Party. We invite all participants to write something in the chat box eg a key theme but not to press 'send'. After a 3,2,1 countdown everyone presses 'send' and the comments flood into the chat box, creating energy and a wealth of rich data too
Hope that's helpful
--
Luci Englert McKean?()
Text or voicemail: 812-325-9432
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Sarah,
If feeling heard is the primary purpose, something that I¡¯ve discovered that seems odd but true is that people don¡¯t have to be witnessed by everyone. So an approach I¡¯ve used is to create random groups ¡ª from 2 to 4 people depending on how much time is available ¡ª and offer a reflection prompt question. That means everyone gets airtime and is heard by others. Optionally, when you bring folks back together, you can invite anyone who wants to speak to the whole to do so and hear a few comments or invite a word, phrase, or sentence from everyone. Or any of the variety of written options, like the ones Bev suggested.
Peggy
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Hello Whitney, we have found a Chatbox Storm to be the best way to bring learning from the BRs, whilst also uniting the group back together in the main space.
Whilst in the BRs we use google slide templates, so working from the same document each room completes the template for their respective number (ie BR1 uses slide 1) so the details feedback is already captured.
Our approach on their return to the main room is a virtual adaptation of the Liberating Structures Mad Hatters Tea Party. We invite all participants to write something in the chat box eg a key theme but not to press 'send'. After a 3,2,1 countdown everyone presses 'send' and the comments flood into the chat box, creating energy and a wealth of rich data too
Hope that's helpful
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Hello Whitney, we have found a Chatbox Storm to be the best way to bring learning from the BRs, whilst also uniting the group back together in the main space.
Whilst in the BRs we use google slide templates, so working from the same document each room completes the template for their respective number (ie BR1 uses slide 1) so the details feedback is already captured.
Our approach on their return to the main room is a virtual adaptation of the Liberating Structures Mad Hatters Tea Party. We invite all participants to write something in the chat box eg a key theme but not to press 'send'. After a 3,2,1 countdown everyone presses 'send' and the comments flood into the chat box, creating energy and a wealth of rich data too
Hope that's helpful
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Great responses.
What about when the main purpose of the report-out is to allow participants to feel heard? When I work with more hierarchical, less tech-savvy, and more oral-tradition-heavy groups, they expect to have their time at the mic in plenary, and the report-out is a comfortable way to do that.? I can nudge them toward other ways of sharing - a virtual gallery walk, a decision-making poll on Acceptify, a 2-liner they prepare and then share in the Zoom chatterfall, a co-authored Google Doc, etc. - but none of it gives the space to their live voices and so many participants still feel unheard. Even the option to record and share voice messages or videos in Slack has had mixed and weak results.
Yes, nudges and modeling and progressive change to a wider variety of share-out approaches are all great. But while we slowly get there, what's the most innovative nudge that still respects the "time at the mic" desires of my participants?
Appreciative of this group's generosity of wisdom!
Cheers, Sarah Facilitator, Trainer, Coach, Learner? (Virtual & In-Person)??|??
Ed.M.,?Learning?&?Teaching?Program |?Harvard Graduate School of Education Associate Certified Coach (ACC) | Learning Travel Blogger ? | ??
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On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 1:04 PM Peggy Holman < peggy@...> wrote: Agreed that the purpose of the review matters. I generally think of three primary and often overlapping purposes:
* Individual learning and clarity - what does this mean for me? * Uncovering collective meaning - what is coalescing? * Discerning what¡¯s next - what action makes sense now?
I see feedback on the session as a different function. So I¡¯m going to focus on how I go about the three primary purposes for the group¡¯s needs.
The specifics of what I do depend on the mix of purposes.? No matter the purpose, I rarely debrief groups because, as others have pointed out, that tends to be dull. Gallery walks can be helpful.?
The thing I¡¯ve found most successful when there is a need to get group specifics is to flip the process. Rather than groups reporting, have them share their flip charts or digital equivalent, or even better, images and invite questions and comments from everyone else. No report from the group, though they can respond to questions. Their work speaks for them and what is discussed is guided by the interests of those who weren¡¯t in the group.
More often, I start with individual meaning making, what moves people. So rather than group reports, I invite people to speak for themselves about what surprised, delighted, challenged or inspired them. (That framing is from anthropologist Angeles Arrien.) ?There¡¯s authenticity and energy behind the responses. Speaking it helps people internalize it and helps others discover what resonates for them.?
I find discovering collective meaning also happens most effectively by beginning from individual meaning. It still seems magic to me but I now know that when individuals name what matters to them, they and others discover they¡¯re not alone. What is most deeply personal is also universal.? You can use a variety of approaches to clustering to discover group resonance. When face to face, I have multiple ways of going about that, usually with people physically moving around to discover their kindreds. I find the online tools, particularly with groups who aren¡¯t tech savvy, challenging. I¡¯ve used??with some success for this purpose. It becomes a basis for conversation to discern resonant themes. People grow in excitement and connection as they see a few themes coalescing. And what emerges can frame action.
When the purpose includes discerning?what now?,?my preferred approach is some form of?simple self-organizing. Again, it is inviting individual energies, this time with action in mind. Particularly following individual meaning making and discovering collective meaning, some people are ready to name what they want to pursue. Before inviting others to join them to discuss and agree to a description and who does what by when, you can do a sanity check. I¡¯ll often ask something like, "If we do what has been named, will we accomplish our purpose?" It¡¯s a chance to tease out other needed actions and who is willing to take responsibility. Sometimes something emerges and someone steps forward. Mostly what has been raised stands and people organize and get to work.
So that¡¯s my general pattern for what I think you¡¯re asking about.
Peggy
________________________________ Peggy Holman Co-founder Journalism That Matters 15347 SE 49th Place Bellevue, WA ?98006 206-948-0432 Twitter: @peggyholman JTM Twitter: @JTMStream Enjoy the award winning?
On May 21, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Whitney Caruso < whitney@...> wrote:
Thanks everyone! This has been very helpful to review. Appreciate the different perspectives being shared...and looking forward to being able to bring groups together in-person! Whitney Caruso (she/her/hers) Vice President On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 8:56 AM Luci McKean < luci@...> wrote: If the point of the review is group learning, another option not mentioned is using the chat box, maybe a waterfall chat.? I sometimes give a specific prompt, give them a minute (by the clock) of silence to consider their answer and type it into chat WITHOUT pressing "enter" ... then after?a minute has passed, ask (or look) if anyone needs more time, and then tell everyone to press enter and see what happens. THEN give everyone a few minutes to read the chat, and type "@someone" with either an amplifying message or support of great ideas (do not use direct messaging, but still chatting to "everyone").? This allows everyone to be engaged without having everyone have minutes to speak.
But the bigger, earlier question is what is the purpose of the sharing (as others have pointed out in their replies already).? If the point is for you, the organizers, to improve your practice, then instead of doing this orally in-session or even using Chat, better to have a Google Form with these questions so people can answer anonymously (giving them the option of including their email if they want a personal reply or if they are open to being asked clarifying questions).? AND if you do that, then in your next session, be sure to read aloud something from each respondee (just a sentence or so).? Because people so often complete exit surveys that seem to evaporate into thin air, this demonstration of your having READ their comments is important, and when people hear that others have very different opinions, they grow to value the diversity of thinking within the group.
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:48 AM Nicole Martin < nlmartin1@...> wrote: Very interesting topic, thank you for raising it Whitney. I would love to hear more responses as I also struggle with this.?
One site I like is which has many, many articles about the art of reviewing. There's no simple answer provided, and the focus is more on reviewing experiential learning, but this article on avoiding cliches has helped me reflect on the importance of phrasing the question well:?
A few tactics I have used include:? ?- Giving a sentence starter vs. question ("The biggest aha for me was...")? ?- Having them sum up in chat, similar to the suggestion to capture in a powerpoint? ?- Letting them brag on each other ("did someone in your group have a great solution that stuck with you?") this solves the social pressure of people not wanting to share their own cool idea or win, of course it's important that the thing being shared is positive & not vulnerable.?
The other reflections are encouraging me to consider whether the share-out is truly critical, though.?
Nicole
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:05 AM Andrea Gewessler < andrea@...> wrote: I think as this was actually an evaluation of the session, my own feeling, rightly or wrongly, is that : ? - Participants don¡¯t care about hearing about the evaluation of our session
- The questions were skewed towards the negative ¨C 3 even better ifs, 2 don¡¯t like, 1 like ¨C I would have removed the numbers and maybe done it with software such as PollEverywhere or
- I usually prefer to end on a positive note such as max 3 words how today was for you. Or even just one word.
- Generally, group shares I assume you are talking online: I have successfully used fishbowl conversations to bring back the different strands of conversation in groups, yes, using the whiteboard and a virtual gallery walk, or time limits on feedback ¨C 1 minute per group with the clock ticking.
? You probably do all of this already. Everybody here is so experienced. ? By the way my platform of choice is now Welo Space. It¡¯s superb. ? Andrea ? Andrea Gewessler Mobile ¨C 0044 796 396 0194 Office ¨C 0044 20 8776 9111 Skype ¨C Andrea.Gewessler ? ? ? I feel your pain. We often ditch the share out entirely by having the breakout groups take notes in a shared PowerPoint deck (each group gets one slide that has the prompt on the top) and then allowing time for everyone to do a gallery walk, and then share their key observation and one question in the chat. Another option is to provide a strict template for the share-out, where people write down on a piece of paper the answer to a question or fill in a blank, and then they read out loud what they wrote on the paper. Will be curious what others do!
Hello! A team member of mine posed the question below, and I thought this group might have some ideas. Thanks in advance!
Would love to tap into the collective brain power of this group around a topic that I have been thinking a lot about lately....?the group share-out.Context: group share-outs after breakout/ small group work seem to provide little value and fail to even keep the attention of the groups listening. I have attempted to make really pointed instructions for what to share out (ex. Friday I asked a group to do 1-2-3, share 1 thing they liked, 2 things they did not like, and 3 suggestions or questions) in an attempt to make these more meaningful and concise. Even with these types of instruction people succumb to the typical rambling summary.In past roles, I have simply skipped the share-out completely, but doing so can have social consequences in a group such as feelings of lack of transparency, or feelings like the group discussion wasn't valued, etc.How can we make the group-share out more engaging and purposeful?
--
Luci Englert McKean?()
Text or voicemail: 812-325-9432
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Hi everyone, I'm taking a bit of time to look back over my use of digital group workspaces like Mural and Miro (is there a name for this genre of tool?), and was considering some of the capabilities go *beyond* mimicking 'real life', and enable a facilitator to introduce new modalities... So for example:
- Instantly changing the colour/shape of sticky notes.
- Duplicating a collection of sticky notes so that multiple groups can sort in parallel and compare what they end up with.
- Summon everyone (how I love this power!).
- The ability to easily hide/reveal content like some kind of a magician...
- Instant 'write-up' - no more deciphering terrible handwriting
What features/adaptations have you used as a facilitator which take you beyond the capabilities of duplicating what we used to use in real life? Grateful for anything you can share to add to my list... Thanks, Chris Very interested in your experiences...
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