Re: Warning: Multiple definitions of model ...
Output is engraved on stone
tablets.
======================================================================================
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget.
I see, and I remember.
I do, and I understand.
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-09 16:07, cander shelter via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
There is also?
JSPICE
"JSPICE is a simulator for
superconductor and semiconductor circuits, and is based on
the general-purpose circuit simulation program SPICE2; it is
incorporated with the Josephson junction model. It supports
the same SPICE2 format and is running in the batch mode.
Like SPICE2, it has ASCII plotting facility built in.?
The simulator is only valid for transient simulations and
DC operating point; AC small-signal analyses are not
allowed."
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 10:15 AM, Andy I wrote:
Andy
I wonder if it might be worth the while of those of us
concerned about Analog Device's inaction in these
matters to take to social media to suggest alternatives
to LTSpice. With apologies to Arlo Guthrie and his
"Alice's Restaurant" and the Wikipedia site I pulled
this from,
"He
predicts that a single person doing it would be
rejected as "sick" and that two people doing it, in
harmony, would be rejected as??"", but
that once three people started doing it they would
begin to suspect "an organization" and 50 people a day
would be recognized as??a
movement."
Thoughts?
|
Re: Warning: Multiple definitions of model ...
There is also? JSPICE"JSPICE is a simulator for superconductor and semiconductor circuits, and is based on the general-purpose circuit simulation program SPICE2; it is incorporated with the Josephson junction model. It supports the same SPICE2 format and is running in the batch mode. Like SPICE2, it has ASCII plotting facility built in.? The simulator is only valid for transient simulations and DC operating point; AC small-signal analyses are not allowed."
On Sunday, July 9, 2023, 6:57:47 PM GMT+4, Christopher Paul <christopherrpaul1@...> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 10:15 AM, Andy I wrote:
Andy
I wonder if it might be worth the while of those of us concerned about Analog Device's inaction in these matters to take to social media to suggest alternatives to LTSpice. With apologies to Arlo Guthrie and his "Alice's Restaurant" and the Wikipedia site I pulled this from, "He predicts that a single person doing it would be rejected as "sick" and that two people doing it, in harmony, would be rejected as??"", but that once three people started doing it they would begin to suspect "an organization" and 50 people a day would be recognized as??a movement."
Thoughts?
|
Re: Warning: Multiple definitions of model ...
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 10:15 AM, Andy I wrote:
Andy
I wonder if it might be worth the while of those of us concerned about Analog Device's inaction in these matters to take to social media to suggest alternatives to LTSpice. With apologies to Arlo Guthrie and his "Alice's Restaurant" and the Wikipedia site I pulled this from, "He predicts that a single person doing it would be rejected as "sick" and that two people doing it, in harmony, would be rejected as??"", but that once three people started doing it they would begin to suspect "an organization" and 50 people a day would be recognized as??a movement."
Thoughts?
|
Re: I am unable to add and use the BS138 (BSS138) model for simulation Iin LTSpice. can anyone help me with this
I have uploaded an LTspice VDMOS model for the Onsemi BSS138.
The uploaded zip includes a model validation report that compares
the key testjig simulation results to the Onsemi datasheet graphs.
--
Regards,
Tony
|
Re: PWL sources (was but not related to: "Discrete data points in plot view")
Dave,
Of course he was, although I find it more instructive to show someone how it does work, rather than explaining how or why some other example does not work.
All for now
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
eewiz, I think Bonkers was mixing absolute timing with relative timing notation.
If you delete all of the + signs at the beginning of the lines, it makes pretty good sense, as absolute times.
?
It took me a long time to get it through my head that relative time notation made the job a lot easier!
Dave
?
?
Bonkers may be leading you down the primrose path.
If you follow Bonkers' advice the length of bit[1] will be twice the length of bit[0] and the length of bit[2] will be three times the length of bit[0].
The slew rate will also progress to 2 times and then 3 times longer...
This is all you need to make a PWL file with relative timing.
0??? 0?????????????? at 0 time its 0 volts.
+750n??? 10 ??? take 750ns to go from 0V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
+1.5u??? -10???? take 1.5us to go from 10V to -10V with a linear slope.
+58u??? -10????? stay at -10V for 58us.
+1.5u??? 10????? take 1.5us to go from -10V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
If you would prefer to work with parameters instead of numbers, be my guest.
It took me just several minutes to copy and past what I needed in Excel to create a file that's 14,582 lines long.
As I made it, I made some changes to add some discontinuities on a periodic basis and then paste, paste, paste some more.
My file runs for about 583ms.
If I had known of the REPEAT syntax at the time, I could have made use of it but, cut and paste is easy, LTspice syntax is not.
Firstly, you can easily repeat cycles of your 32 points, even just using Notepad, if you adopt the +xxx option for the timestamp (relative timing).?
Secondly, PWL means it is linearly interpolated between the defined points.? If you want "crisp" edges, then you need excel, or libreoffice calc, or whatever.?
Essentially you need 2 PWL values per point, to get nice square data.?
The time deltas are normally just 2 values - bit period, and slew time.?
so, to make a datastream, like "101" :?
time? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? value
0? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?0
+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?bit[0] say 5V
+tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+tbit+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? bit[1] say 0V?
+2x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+2x tbit +tslew? ? ? bit[2] say 5V
+ 3x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?same
+ 3x tbit? +tslew? ? ?next bit
...
etcetera.?
really easy to do in a spreadsheet, then select the 2 columns, paste to notepad, save as PWL.
All for now
|
Re: PWL sources (was but not related to: "Discrete data points in plot view")
eewiz, I think Bonkers was mixing absolute timing with relative timing notation.
If you delete all of the + signs at the beginning of the lines, it makes pretty good sense, as absolute times.
?
It took me a long time to get it through my head that relative time notation made the job a lot easier!
Dave
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of
eewiz
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2023 6:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] Discrete data points in plot view
?
Bonkers may be leading you down the primrose path.
If you follow Bonkers' advice the length of bit[1] will be twice the length of bit[0] and the length of bit[2] will be three times the length of bit[0].
The slew rate will also progress to 2 times and then 3 times longer...
This is all you need to make a PWL file with relative timing.
0??? 0?????????????? at 0 time its 0 volts.
+750n??? 10 ??? take 750ns to go from 0V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
+1.5u??? -10???? take 1.5us to go from 10V to -10V with a linear slope.
+58u??? -10????? stay at -10V for 58us.
+1.5u??? 10????? take 1.5us to go from -10V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
If you would prefer to work with parameters instead of numbers, be my guest.
It took me just several minutes to copy and past what I needed in Excel to create a file that's 14,582 lines long.
As I made it, I made some changes to add some discontinuities on a periodic basis and then paste, paste, paste some more.
My file runs for about 583ms.
If I had known of the REPEAT syntax at the time, I could have made use of it but, cut and paste is easy, LTspice syntax is not.
Firstly, you can easily repeat cycles of your 32 points, even just using Notepad, if you adopt the +xxx option for the timestamp (relative timing).?
Secondly, PWL means it is linearly interpolated between the defined points.? If you want "crisp" edges, then you need excel, or libreoffice calc, or whatever.?
Essentially you need 2 PWL values per point, to get nice square data.?
The time deltas are normally just 2 values - bit period, and slew time.?
so, to make a datastream, like "101" :?
time? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? value
0? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?0
+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?bit[0] say 5V
+tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+tbit+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? bit[1] say 0V?
+2x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+2x tbit +tslew? ? ? bit[2] say 5V
+ 3x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?same
+ 3x tbit? +tslew? ? ?next bit
...
etcetera.?
really easy to do in a spreadsheet, then select the 2 columns, paste to notepad, save as PWL.
All for now
|
Re: PWL sources (was but not related to: "Discrete data points in plot view")
Hello Christoph,
Bonkers may be leading you down the primrose path. If you follow Bonkers' advice the length of bit[1] will be twice the length of bit[0] and the length of bit[2] will be three times the length of bit[0]. The slew rate will also progress to 2 times and then 3 times longer...
This is all you need to make a PWL file with relative timing. 0??? 0?????????????? at 0 time its 0 volts.
+750n??? 10 ??? take 750ns to go from 0V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
+1.5u??? -10???? take 1.5us to go from 10V to -10V with a linear slope.
+58u??? -10????? stay at -10V for 58us.
+1.5u??? 10????? take 1.5us to go from -10V to 10V with a linear slope.
+100u??? 10???? stay at 10V for 100us.
Rinse and Repeat...
If you would prefer to work with parameters instead of numbers, be my guest.
It took me just several minutes to copy and past what I needed in Excel to create a file that's 14,582 lines long. As I made it, I made some changes to add some discontinuities on a periodic basis and then paste, paste, paste some more.
My file runs for about 583ms. If I had known of the REPEAT syntax at the time, I could have made use of it but, cut and paste is easy, LTspice syntax is not.
Bonkers wrote:
Hi Christoph,? Firstly, you can easily repeat cycles of your 32
points, even just using Notepad, if you adopt the +xxx option for the
timestamp (relative timing).?
Secondly, PWL means it is linearly
interpolated between the defined points.? If you want "crisp" edges,
then you need excel, or libreoffice calc, or whatever.?
Essentially you need 2 PWL values per point, to get nice square data.?
The time deltas are normally just 2 values - bit period, and slew time.?
so, to make a datastream, like "101" :?
time? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? value
0? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?0
+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?bit[0] say 5V
+tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+tbit+tslew? ? ? ? ? ? bit[1] say 0V?
+2x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? same
+2x tbit +tslew? ? ? bit[2] say 5V
+ 3x tbit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?same
+ 3x tbit? +tslew? ? ?next bit
...
etcetera.?
really easy to do in a spreadsheet, then select the 2 columns, paste to notepad, save as PWL.
All for now
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
Kerim, can you simplify your 2-winding transformer model a little?? Having an ideal transformer at its core, I think you can "push" the other elements through it to the other side and combine them.? Then can't you apply it to your 3-winding transformer too?
Andy
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
OT:
Obviously, implementing the push-pull topology is much easier than the bridge one. But this has a price:
[1] The amplitude of the driving PWM voltage is doubled. It is from Vbat to –Vbat instead of Vbat to 0 or -Vbat to 0 in case of the bridge.
[2] The PWM resolution is halved. Its duty cycle is 50% for the zero voltage output, while it is 0% in case of the bridge.
[3] The resistance of the low-voltage side (primary?) is doubled (by splitting the primary 1-winding to 2 windings that take the same space).
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 11:22 PM, John Woodgate wrote:
Present: far too much stuff not relevant to the question of the transformer acting as a low-pass filter.
Kerim, if you accept that a two-winding transformer acts as a low-pass filter, you should be able to see that the presence of a third winding doesn't change that.? The leakage inductance and the load resistance are still there, as for the two-winding transformer.
Although I added a load, the new 3-winding model needs to act as LPF even without it, as in the case of the 2-winding one. I am afraid that with an open output, any leakage inductance cannot filter out the high frequency. Did you see my humble solution on the subcircuit schematic of my 2-winding transformer, 'SineXF_lk__01_HY_'?
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 12:05 AM, Jerry Lee Marcel wrote:
The 74HC model is missing.
Sorry, I uploaded it too.
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 11:30 PM, Andy I wrote:
Kerim,
But your 3-winding transformer:
- is really just a 2-winding transformer but with a center-tapped primary (does that matter?);
- is "perfect", with no leakage inductance.
If the leakage inductance is responsible for the transformer's low-pass filtering, the 3-winding transformer lacks any.? What did you do to it when tweaking it to act as an LPF?? You did not leave your tweaks on the schematic, right?
Andy
Andy, You are right in all you said. I was somehow shy to upload what I tried doing because their responses were rather ridiculous :( So, I uploaded the schematic with a conventional 3-winding transformer so that it could be replaced with a practical model and tested. Kerim
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
The 74HC model is missing.
Le 08/07/2023 à 21:03, Kerim via
groups.io a écrit?:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello,
Please find the
uploaded two schematics in ‘PureSineInv.zip’:
[1] Sinewave
inverter using a bridge to drive a two-winding linear
transformer with no load and whose model include somehow its
parasite LPF elements.
[2] Sinewave
inverter using a push-pull drive for three-winding linear
transformer (loaded) whose model doesn’t include its parasite
LPF elements.
In vain, I tried tweaking the three-winding linear transformer
to let it act as a LPF as done on the schematic [1].
I hope that someone can do it for me in any possible way or
notify me that it cannot be done, at least for LTspice.
Your help will be
much appreciated.
(In these days, I cannot afford building a push-pull inverter
and its 3-winding transformer, even for 500W only, to find out
that the PWM high frequency, about 16 KHz (Tpwm=64us), cannot be
filtered out as it was done in the case of the full-bridge.)??
?
Best Regards,
Kerim
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
Kerim, But your 3-winding transformer:
- is really just a 2-winding transformer but with a center-tapped primary (does that matter?);
- is "perfect", with no leakage inductance.
If the leakage inductance is responsible for the transformer's low-pass filtering, the 3-winding transformer lacks any.? What did you do to it when tweaking it to act as an LPF?? You did not leave your tweaks on the schematic, right? Andy
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
More: You don't see any LPF
effect because you set K to 1, so there is no leakage
inductance. If you set K to say 0.98 you will see a filtering
effect.
======================================================================================
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget.
I see, and I remember.
I do, and I understand.
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 21:22, John Woodgate
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Present: far too much stuff
not relevant to the question of the transformer acting as a
low-pass filter.
Kerim, if you accept that a
two-winding transformer acts as a low-pass filter, you
should be able to see that the presence of a third winding
doesn't change that.? The leakage inductance and the load
resistance are still there, as for the two-winding
transformer.
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I
understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 21:13, Andy I wrote:
Missing:
? ? 74hc86.asy
? ? 74hc.lib
Andy
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
Present: far too much stuff not
relevant to the question of the transformer acting as a
low-pass filter.
Kerim, if you accept that a
two-winding transformer acts as a low-pass filter, you should
be able to see that the presence of a third winding doesn't
change that.? The leakage inductance and the load resistance
are still there, as for the two-winding transformer.
======================================================================================
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget.
I see, and I remember.
I do, and I understand.
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 21:13, Andy I wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Missing:
? ? 74hc86.asy
? ? 74hc.lib
Andy
|
Re: Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
Missing:
? ? 74hc86.asy
? ? 74hc.lib
Andy
|
Re: Periodic signal from PWL file
Whoa. I haven't seen of seen BNF for several decades (I think the last I saw it was sgen learnjng Modula-2).
DaveD
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 8, 2023, at 14:48, Donald H Locker via groups.io <dhlocker@...> wrote:
?
Backus-Nauer Form! (commonly just "BNF")
Donald.
On 2023-07-08 14:45, John Woodgate
wrote:
Regular expression?
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I
understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 19:43, Donald H Locker
via groups.io wrote:
That is a "logical OR"? separating two optional forms of the
command or of a command's parameters.
There is a formal mechanism for language specification (whose
name I can't remember despite using is so many times for so
long...).
If I manage to remember, I'll toss it your way.
Donald.
On 2023-07-08 11:56, Christoph
wrote:
Fine so far, but using the | (vertical bar) gives an error.
PWL REPEAT FOREVER
(file=Z:\Users\kuku\Documents\LTspiceXVII\pulses.txt)
ENDREPEAT works, while
PWL REPEAT FOREVER (|
file=Z:\Users\kuku\Documents\LTspiceXVII\pulses.txt)
ENDREPEAT
doesn’t So what is the purpose of the ?|‘?
—
Christoph
Am 08.07.2023 um 17:52 schrieb John
Woodgate < jmw@...>:
If you look at the other examples
on that page, you will see that the |
character is only used with a file, not with a
sequence of numbers.
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do,
and I understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 16:40,
Christoph wrote:
Thanks. This worked. Though the ?|‘ symbol (pipe)
is confusing. If it designates that the data is
supposed to be piped from the file, it doesn’t
work. OTOH, should it mean an ?or“, then the empty
left side of the ?|‘ shouldn’t be empty but
contain a
list of <time><value>
pairs.
—
Christoph
Am 08.07.2023 um 15:11 schrieb
John Woodgate < jmw@...>:
There is an
undocumented REPEAT feature in the
Wiki at: /g/LTspice/wiki/13810
A
list of data points or a file
reference can be repeated a
fixed amount of times <n>,
or forever
PWL REPEAT FOR
<n> (|<file spec>)
ENDREPEAT
PWL REPEAT FOREVER
(|<file spec>) ENDREPEAT
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own
Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I
remember. I do, and I understand.
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On
2023-07-08 13:51, Christoph wrote:
I have created a pulse source from a PWL file.
It‘s 32 samples of a signal.
Is it possible to make this pulse train periodic?
Or do I have to provide the pulse samples for every period by the PWL file?
—
Christoph
|
Push-Pull 3-Winding Transformer Model Acting as LPF too?
Hello,
Please find the uploaded two schematics in ‘PureSineInv.zip’:
[1] Sinewave inverter using a bridge to drive a two-winding linear transformer with no load and whose model include somehow its parasite LPF elements.
[2] Sinewave inverter using a push-pull drive for three-winding linear transformer (loaded) whose model doesn’t include its parasite LPF elements.
In vain, I tried tweaking the three-winding linear transformer to let it act as a LPF as done on the schematic [1].
I hope that someone can do it for me in any possible way or notify me that it cannot be done, at least for LTspice.
Your help will be much appreciated.
(In these days, I cannot afford building a push-pull inverter and its 3-winding transformer, even for 500W only, to find out that the PWM high frequency, about 16 KHz (Tpwm=64us), cannot be filtered out as it was done in the case of the full-bridge.)??
?
Best Regards,
Kerim
|
Re: Periodic signal from PWL file
Backus-Nauer Form! (commonly just "BNF")
Donald.
On 2023-07-08 14:45, John Woodgate
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Regular expression?
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I
understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 19:43, Donald H Locker
via groups.io wrote:
That is a "logical OR"? separating two optional forms of the
command or of a command's parameters.
There is a formal mechanism for language specification (whose
name I can't remember despite using is so many times for so
long...).
If I manage to remember, I'll toss it your way.
Donald.
On 2023-07-08 11:56, Christoph
wrote:
Fine so far, but using the | (vertical bar) gives an error.
PWL REPEAT FOREVER
(file=Z:\Users\kuku\Documents\LTspiceXVII\pulses.txt)
ENDREPEAT works, while
PWL REPEAT FOREVER (|
file=Z:\Users\kuku\Documents\LTspiceXVII\pulses.txt)
ENDREPEAT
doesn’t So what is the purpose of the ?|‘?
—
Christoph
Am 08.07.2023 um 17:52 schrieb John
Woodgate < jmw@...>:
If you look at the other examples
on that page, you will see that the |
character is only used with a file, not with a
sequence of numbers.
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do,
and I understand. Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On 2023-07-08 16:40,
Christoph wrote:
Thanks. This worked. Though the ?|‘ symbol (pipe)
is confusing. If it designates that the data is
supposed to be piped from the file, it doesn’t
work. OTOH, should it mean an ?or“, then the empty
left side of the ?|‘ shouldn’t be empty but
contain a
list of <time><value>
pairs.
—
Christoph
Am 08.07.2023 um 15:11 schrieb
John Woodgate < jmw@...>:
There is an
undocumented REPEAT feature in the
Wiki at: /g/LTspice/wiki/13810
A
list of data points or a file
reference can be repeated a
fixed amount of times <n>,
or forever
PWL REPEAT FOR
<n> (|<file spec>)
ENDREPEAT
PWL REPEAT FOREVER
(|<file spec>) ENDREPEAT
======================================================================================
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own
Opinions Only
Rayleigh, Essex UK
I hear, and I forget. I see, and I
remember. I do, and I understand.
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)
On
2023-07-08 13:51, Christoph wrote:
I have created a pulse source from a PWL file.
It‘s 32 samples of a signal.
Is it possible to make this pulse train periodic?
Or do I have to provide the pulse samples for every period by the PWL file?
—
Christoph
|
John Woodgate
Tony Casey
eewiz
Bell, Dave