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? ??Hello, Why is this happening? The members do not marchthey are expelled, (for Spam?), this will not be fair. Some explanation?. Thanks. ? ? Rosa.? ? ===============================================? ? ? Asunto: Subscriber was removed for marking a message as spam ? Hello, ? This is to notify you that rhondameador@... has been unsubscribed from your group [email protected] because a message to them was marked as spam. Note that this may have been done by their email service provider, not by the individual member personally. They've been given a link that lets them quickly resubscribe, in case this was an error. ? To turn off this notification, log into and edit your subscription. ? Thank you for choosing Groups.io groups. ? Cheers, ? The Groups.io Team

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 02:41 PM, ?? Rosa - Rosa Tags ?? wrote:

Some explanation?. Thanks.

Rosa -- This is a frequently-complained-about feature of groups.io. The bottom line is that groups.io cannot afford to get a reputation as a spamming service.

[The .io top-level domain (British Indian Ocean Territory) does not help in that regard.]

In any event, please read the wiki entry at?/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam?and come back here with any further questions.

Hope this helps,
Bruce?
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The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

I think removal when someone tags an groups.io email as spam is a great idea.

If a member tags an email spam, the member should be removed. Of course, the member could accidently tag an email as spam, but when he is removed, another email is sent to him advising him he was removed for reporting spam and that email tells him what to do if his tagging of spam was in error.

Love it!
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On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 08:09 PM, CW Bill Rouse wrote:

If a member tags an email spam, the member should be removed.

Perhaps so, but in many (perhaps most) cases it is not the subscriber that marks the message as spam, it's their ISP.

Have you read the GMF wiki that Bruce mentioned in his message? The problem is more complex than your comment seems to recognise.

Chris

I am in agreement that, regardless of the complaints, this is a good policy, and one that should teach users a very necessary lesson.

You do not, EVER, mark as spam a message that comes from a service to which you have subscribed, PERIOD, and certainly not from an e-mailing list you had to go to great effort to join.? If you don't want the message, delete it.? If you're getting too much traffic, then learn the methods Groups.io gives you for:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

Spam is not just a message you don't want from a group you've subscribed to.? ?Marking these as spam now has ripple effects because these designations get aggregated by various ISPs and spam filters, causing people who actually should be getting stuff they want to have to jump through hoops to get it.

If an e-mail message is not unsolicited, and messages from a subscription service are never unsolicited even if the message is unwanted, it is not spam.? It may be junk, but it's not spam, and should never be identified as such.

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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

The problem, as has been mentioned, is not the individual marking it as spam but the ISP.

I've been receiving GMF Digests for more than a year and I have never personally marked one as spam yet I have been removed due to marking it spam.? So now I check the ISP Webmail on a daily basis (don't need to do it daily but that way I won't forget :)) and move GMF digests from the Spam Folder by marking them Not Spam -- in an effort to train the Spam algorithms to recognize it as Not Spam. So far, it hasn't been effective. I had 3 digests in the Spam folder yesterday :(? But I keep trying :)

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 07:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

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On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 11:03 PM, John T wrote:

The problem, as has been mentioned, is not the individual marking it as spam but the ISP.

Then that issue needs to be taken up with the ISP.? ?ISPs should never be identifying anything that comes from a known subscription-only service of a non-commercial nature, and e-mailing lists fill that bill, as spam.

If customers don't raise hell with them about this they're certainly not going to stop doing it.

Yes, it's a PITA, but we all have to play our part in both blocking real spam and preventing the blocking of things that, by definition, cannot be spam.? Something an individual must subscribe to is never, ever spam.
?
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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

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? Thank you very much everyone for the responses. Also for this link that I read. Anyway, I do not see solution to this problem. Worst of all, that I forget to say earlier, is that they be removed by Spam inactive members who do not send any mail to the group, then, if they do not send any mail, impossible to eliminate them by Spam, incredible! ? ? ? ? -------Mensaje original------- ? De: Bruce Bowman Fecha: 26/02/2019 20:47:31 Para: [email protected] Asunto: Re: [GMF] Subscriber was removed for marking a message as spam? ?

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? ? Yes, but if they are inactive and they do not write to the group ... as they can be expelled by Spam, if they do not write. I do not understand the reason for the expulsion. Thanks for your answer. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -------Mensaje original------- ? De: Shal Farley Fecha: 27/02/2019 9:42:39 Para: GMF Asunto: Re: [GMF] Subscriber was removed for marking a message as spam? ? Rosa, ?Worst of all, that I forget to say earlier, is that they be removed by Spam inactive members who do not send any mail to the group, then, if they do not send any mail, impossible to eliminate them by Spam, incredible! Even if they are inactive, they will be sent the notification of their removal from the group, and can use that to resume their subscription. The only hitch is that their email service might redirect the notice itself to the the member's Spam folder and he/she may not notice it. Or even if it arrives in his/her Inbox, he/she may not recognize it or trust it. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list ?

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:18 AM, David Haun wrote:

What I don't understand is why it is only groups.io where this is happening.? I have and use email accounts with Yahoo, JUNO, Gmail, plus FaceBook and Instagram, and none of them remove members for marking messages as SPAM.? David

You're not the first one to ask about this. This is explained in the wiki.?Wiki - SPAM Info

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Gerald

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 04:21 PM, ?? Rosa - Rosa Tags ?? wrote:

I do not understand the reason for the expulsion.

Rosa, I accept that English is not your first language, and that that complicates matters but did you read the GMF wiki that Bruce mentioned?

Here it is again:? /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Chris

?? Rosa - Rosa Tags ?? writes:

Yes, but if they are inactive and they do not write to the group …
as they can be expelled by Spam, if they do not write.
I do not understand the reason for the expulsion.
Thanks for your answer.

Rosa -
The system is not saying your member sent spam.

The system is responding to a message that the member (or her email provider) marked as spam and that then wound up in her spam folder.

The deletion doesn't happen when the message gets marked. It actually happens when her spam folder gets emptied and the "spam" messages are deleted.

It could have been any message from groups.io that she (or her mail provider) marked as spam. It could have been something as simple as a welcome message you sent that has laid in her spam folder for a while, until the folder finally was emptied.

The root of the problem is not with groups.io or any other group. The real problem is with spam filters that are so poor that they are worthless. But responsible mail handlers are expected to have spam filters so they use something, even though it works very poorly.

The spam filter my own email provider uses is so poor that it has only once caught anything that could reasonably be called spam, and yet has let through dozens of real spam every year without tagging them.

Dano

This topic spurred me on to post my first Admin Notice on a group where I have just been installed as moderator.? ?This is going on everywhere.? It is not an issue limited to Groups.io.? It is a direct result of the mechanisms described in the link posted by Bruce and again by Chris.

This is the cyber world we are in.? ?Individual users have to do their part to avoid these issues in the first place and, when they occur due to no direct action of their own, what they can and should do to at least attempt to bring the issue to a stop by communicating with their e-mail service providers.
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? ? ? ? ? ?First, let me say, that I know that many of you who've experienced this have not done this marking yourself.? ?If, however, you did, and you did it intentionally:? Please STOP!!? ?There are all sorts of mechanisms in place these days behind the scenes that feed information about messages marked by users as spam up to their e-mail service providers, that then gets shared among e-mail service providers, to create spam filters.? ? This is absolutely marvelous when messages are marked correctly, but if non-spam gets marked, then non-spam starts to get identified as spam by the e-mail service providers, leading everyone to have things blocked that they'd rather be getting.

? ? ? ? ? ?If you are not intentionally marking anything as spam, but are getting a message from Groups.io saying that you have been unsubscribed for marking a message as spam, this means that your own e-mail service provider is doing that marking, which is not a good thing.? Thus, I'm asking you to please make the effort to contact your e-mail service provider and ask them to remove anything that comes from any groups.io address from their spam filters.? ?The only way anyone should be getting messages from groups.io is if they went to the effort to subscribe, and by definition subscription e-mail lists cannot be spam.? You may get messages you don't want, and if they're few and far between, then delete them, but don't mark them as spam.

? ? ? ? ? ? If you are on any Groups.io group where traffic is substantial, and you don't want to deal with individual messages, you can change your subscription to digest to cut down on your traffic or use a number of controls provided to really limit what you're going to see from Groups.io for a given group.? I will post the instructions on what exists, and how to use it, here again now:

? ? ? ? ?

? ? ? ? ? ? There has been a lot of recent conversation on a couple of the administrators groups about people being unsubscribed for having marked messages as spam, even when they personally have not done so.? ?I wanted you all to know why this is happening when you have not done any marking and what you can do to at least try to educate your e-mail service provider about Groups.io messages not being spam.

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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

Also added this as an addendum, as I'd forgotten about the excellent information in the Group Managers Forum Wiki on this:
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By the way, for any of you who want to know more about what's happening and why, there is an excellent Wiki Page on the Group Managers Forum that gives you the skinny.? For those who want more of the background on this, the actual mechanisms involved, and what you can do about it, please read:

? ? ??Members Removed for Marking Messages as Spam
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The more our members know about what's happening, why, and what they can actually do about it the better!
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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 01:16 PM, D R Stinson wrote:

The real problem is with spam filters that are so poor that they are worthless.

We'll have to disagree on that.? ?Spam filtering, when done *correctly* has been raised to an art form in the age of Bayesian filtering.? ?I haven't had a single message misidentified as spam by Google under Gmail in I cannot recall how long (many years).

Even when I was using Popfile way back when, a personally controlled Bayesian filter, the speed with which it learned how to correctly identify spam was mind boggling.

The problem now is that many e-mail service providers are not "filtering on reports."? ?It would be a simple matter, once Mark (or anyone) notified an e-mail provider that Groups.io is a subscription service, for them to put a permanent exclusion on classifying anything that comes from *@*.groups.io as spam.? The problem is that they don't have human beings taking the time to actually do that.

End users are well known to run the gamut from complete idiots who think that spam marking is just the same as deleting to those who understand what all the distinctions and ramifications are.? ?Those in charge of spam filtering at large organizations should know that they cannot and should not rely on end-user reports, or feedback loops that result from them, as valid without doing a bit of further research.
?
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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

David,

? ? ? ? ? ?Juno is an email service provider.? ?Groups.io is not, it is an e-mail list management service (with a concurrent web interface).

? ? ? ? ? ?Email service providers, and only email service providers, decide what they will and will not do as far as central spam filtering.? The page referenced clearly, very clearly, states this and even gives a list (not definitive) of email service providers who are using the mechanisms that result in unwanted unsubscriptions, and why Groups.io must honor those "requests" or face even worse issues.

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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

???? I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

? ? ? ? ?~ Galileo Galilei

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 08:18 AM, David Haun wrote:

accounts with Yahoo

Ironically, Yahoo (mail) is one of the services that will punish groups.io for not removing a member that reports a message as spam, but doesn't enforce it on their own service.

Duane
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