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Sharon,

The reason I like hashtags is that the topic is clear—its like a
standardized key word.

While I agree, I'm not sure how that's relevant to your original question about Groups.io's directory listings.

Subject lines are not clear. If someone changes it or the thread is
the same subject as a thread from yesterday or last, that isn’t
reflected.

Groups.io's processing of inbound messages to determine whether they should be added to an existing Topic or start a new Topic is more restrictive than Y!Groups's was.

There are two basic factors in both implementations:

1) Whether the message has the same Subject line (excluding things like Re:) as an existing message.

2) Whether the message has an "In-Reply-To" field in its header that cites an existing message. Most email interfaces will insert that standard header field when the user Replies to a message rather than Composes a new one. Some email interfaces use the "References" header field instead; Groups.io uses that one also, Y!Groups did not.

Where the two differ is that Y!G's implementation uses the logical OR of those two conditions, where Groups.io uses a more complex evaluation.

A practical difference is that a frequent complaint relating to Y!Groups was that someone could post a new message whose Subject line happened to be a textual match for a message that was years old, and Y!Groups would tie them together anyway (condition 1); and conversely a member could post entirely new content under a changed Subject line, but because they happened to start with a reply to an existing message it would get tied to that messages (condition 2).

On the other hand the complaint for Groups.io is more often the other way around - messages that should have been treated as part of an existing Topic sometimes aren't.

There's no perfect world, I think.

One list with tens of thousands of messages could probably be narrowed
down to 15 topics.

With Groups.io's more restrictive evaluation that's much less likely. In particular, a message won't link to an existing Topic if the last post in that Topic is more than two weeks old - unless condition (2) is also met.

Shal


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Bruce,

Hmmm...both the Yahoo group transfer instructions and the GMF wiki
still state that you have to manually send the transfer agent an
invitation.

When the Form submission was first created there was a brief time (maybe less than a day) when the instructions did not mention inviting the transfer agent, but waiting to approve the transfer agent if needed ...

and depending on group settings this might not even be possible.

... and then Mark ran into the "Invitation only" type of group. And so the instructions changed again to require an invitation. Bottom item:

Someone needs to confirm the actual process so the documentation can
be kept current.

I'm not sure we know, fully.

It is safe to say that the Y!Group should invite the transfer agent; because the instructions say so. What I'm not certain of is what happens in the event that a group reaches the head of the queue, or some timeout, without the transfer agent receiving the invitation. Maybe Mark will then attempt to subscribe to the group.

That is, it may be belts-and-suspenders, but I don't know that for certain.

Of course if neither happens then the process stalls and it is up to Mark and/or the Y!group admins to notice and attempt to get it back on track somehow.

Shal


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Brett,

If I'm reading the thread correctly, should our setting be updated to
"Reply to Group"?

If you're talking about David's group, yes. That would best enable what he wants (replies to his Groups.io and also another list).

To make it even better a suggestion could be posted on beta to add an "All Recipients" setting to the Reply-To option. Then when a member happens to cross-post to another list, that other list would be included in the Reply-To field generated by Groups.io.

If you're talking about some other group, then it would depend on the needs of the group. Some groups aren't really for conversations but more of a bulletin-board. Examples include Freecycle, Freegle, and other sharing-oriented groups; in this type of group it is more appropriate that replies to offers be sent only to the original poster.

Shal


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Thanks Shal!

I checked the settings of the list in question and it is currently set to "Reply to Sender"

Other options include: Group, Moderators, & Group and Sender.

If I'm reading the thread correctly, should our setting be updated to "Reply to Group"?

Bruce, you are correct. This change hasn't been well documented, but it was just after our experience that Mark created the form on the join page. That was prompted not only by that change but by the desire for people to be able to verify that their transfer was indeed in process. Of course that doesn't mean that the invitation process won't work, either. By inviting the transfer agent and still filling out the form, a group owner stands a better chance of getting the transfer agent onto the Yahoo group to be transferred. Somewhat of a belt-and-suspenders way of looking at the situation.

Dano

David,

|_| I always want copies of my own messages

This only affects messages that I send, right?

Correct.

Is there a way to set this for everyone.

No.

In particular note that it is an Account setting, not a Subscription setting. This means it affects all groups to which you have a subscription (under this address).

It seems to just not insert a Reply-To for our list, which is pretty
important for cross posting to work (otherwise our group effectively
steals threads from every other list).

I'm not certain what you mean here. As far as I know there's no way to prevent Groups.io from putting a Reply-To field in the header of outbound messages.

In any case, if you can resolve those cases where it appears that Groups.io removed the other list from the To or CC field then it seems like the right thing will happen if you set your Groups.io group to have Reply To the group, and for members to habitually use the Reply All feature of their email service. But...

1) The Reply All will most likely include a direct message to the sender, as well as both groups.

2) One possible reason for Groups.io not to pass the address of the other list would be if it was named in a BCC. In that case that address was never delivered to Groups.io from the sender's email service.

3) Reply All doesn't seem to be implemented uniformly among all email services. That is, I've read of odd cases where Groups.io messages are concerned (or any message with a Reply-To field).

Shal


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On Apr 8, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Gerald Boutin <groupsio@...> wrote:

A Topic is a group of messages that consisting of the initial message and all ongoing replies. Hence, the name of the Topic is the subject of the first message.

The number shown in Topics view is a count of the messages in the topic.

The reason I like hashtags is that the topic is clear—its like a standardized key word. Subject lines are not clear. If someone changes it or the thread is the same subject as a thread from yesterday or last, that isn’t reflected.

Counting topics by using subject lines doesn’t really mean anything beyond how many people responded to that one message and didn’t change the subject line.

One list with tens of thousands of messages could probably be narrowed down to 15 topics.

Sharon
----
Sharon Villines, Washington DC

"Save Our Planet. It's the only one with chocolate."

On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 05:59 pm, D R Stinson wrote:

This change was added after member invitations started failing to work. We were able to have the transfer agent use the "request membership" process instead to get a couple groups I was helping to get moved, and I believe the transfer agent is now using that method to join your Yahoo group.

Hmmm...both the Yahoo group transfer instructions and the GMF wiki still state that you have to manually send the transfer agent an invitation. There is no suggestion that the agent will send Yahoo a membership request; and depending on group settings this might not even be possible.

It's been a couple months since I've done this and quite a bit has changed since then. Someone needs to confirm the actual process so the documentation can be kept current.?

Regards,
Bruce

Mary Ellen,

If a member is automatically removed from a group (because of the
reported spam issue), does Groups.IO notify the owner of the group ...

As Chris said, a notice is sent to the group admins (owners and moderators).

I think that any owner or moderator may elect not to receive such notices by unchecking the "Email when a member joins/leaves this group" box, in the Notifications section of his/her Subscription page. That may be appropriate for admins who have limited authority or responsibility in the group.

Also, an entry is made in the group's Activity log. These can be searched for under the "Removed because of spam report" Action.

I would follow up with each "removed" member to give training if I
know their email addresses.

Several of us (GMF members) been working at making the "Removed for Marking Messages as spam" page in GMF's wiki (linked under Advice to Group Members) as useful as practical (clear, but comprehensive). You may link to it or crib from it if you think that will help your members.

Please feel free to ask, comment, suggest or criticize (constructively of course) if you see ways that page can be improved, especially from the member's point of view.
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

Shal


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Thanks. ?That makes sense. ?But: if a subscriber to a subgroup that is invisible in the parent group posts a message, where does the public see it? ?I haven’t explored the publicly-viewable messages area yet, but I’ll check there next.

Don,

The invitation you sent had my first name on it. Did you put that
there or does the invite process add that name?

I did that. I meant to mention that I used the form of address:

Don <user@...>

I usually do that if I have knowledge of the person's name. It gives them an initial display name for their account, if they don't already have a Groups.io account.

If you leave that out and submit just the email address then the salutation in the message is just "Hello," without a name. And for the invitation I don't think groups.io looks up the Display name associated with the account, if any.

Shal


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Derek,

What does this option mean "Group not listed in parent group, publicly
viewable messages."

It means that the subgroup won't be shown in the Subgroups page of the parent (main) group. And that the Messages page of the subgroup is viewable by anyone (public) member or not of either group.

Is this for one-way email subgroups?

No. Having the subgroup not listed in the main group won't prevent main group members from learning about it (especially not with public Messages), or accessing it's home page.

On the whole it seems like a somewhat useless combination, but maybe someone has a use case for it.

I'm new here and have a multi-level group to add, where "public" and
"parent group" privacies are important. If there's a reference for
this, let me know. Thanks.

Generally "public" means anyone anyone (and any search engine) on the web, and "private" means members-only. In a subgroup you have the additional option of having the Messages visible to parent group members as well as members of the subgroup but not the public.

Shal


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Not sure if this was a really hard question or a really obvious answer, still not sure!? I'm new here and have a multi-level group to add, where "public" and "parent group" privacies are important.? If there's a reference for this, let me know.? Thanks.

Sarah, you are correct. For new transfers, go to the Yahoo group transfer page at /yahootransfer and scroll to the bottom. Click on the "Start New Transfer" button. Fill out the form and click on the "Start Transfer Process" button. Watch for a membership request from [email protected] on your Yahoo group, or some further communication.

This change was added after member invitations started failing to work. We were able to have the transfer agent use the "request membership" process instead to get a couple groups I was helping to get moved, and I believe the transfer agent is now using that method to join your Yahoo group.

Dano

Pam,

Is it possible to integrate two Yahoo groups into one groups.io
group here?

Yes. Just perform the transfer twice: once for each Yahoo Group, citing the same Groups.io group as the destination.

See also:
/yahootransfer and (the work-in-progress):
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Transfer-from-Yahoo-Groups

When the neo nonsense started, I found another yahoo platform that
hadn't changed yet, and moved the group there. It ended up changing as
well, of course, and now I'd like to have the messages from both
groups moved into one here, if possible.

Memberships (email addresses) that appear in both Y!groups will be copied as part of the first transfer, then skipped on the second. That will leave the members with the delivery and moderation settings, and join date, they have in the first group.

Messages in the Groups.io group will generally be displayed in date order, so if messages were posted in the two Y!groups concurrently they will appear intermingled in the Groups.io group. But the message numbers will be assigned at the time the messages are copied, so all of the messages from the second group will have higher numbers than those from the first.

Both of the above mean you likely would prefer to transfer the original group first, and the "lifeboat" group second.

Shal


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Sharon,

Why do the numbers for lists show number of topics instead of the
number of messages?

Interesting observation, I hadn't noticed that. I'm not sure why, maybe it was thought that topics better represents the activity, or at least diversity of activity, in the group.

What counts as a topic? Is it the same as messages?

To what others have said, I'll just add that I have colloquially used "topic" and "thread" interchangeably. Both refer to an initial message and the collection of messages in reply, and the replies to the replies.

When speaking specifically about a Groups.io function I try to remember to use "Topic", as that's the name for them here. In other times and places I've tended to use "topic" in the English language sense of a single subject of conversation; and "thread" to refer to the technical, email-specific (or forum-specific), meaning above.

Shal


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On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 03:02 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

I haven't delved into this at all. But here's documentation and support for it:
/api

Thanks Shal. Looks like mostly JSON, which is doable on my end.

Not a lot of activity in the group, though. The API looks pretty powerful but is also a great way to screw things up. The last thing you want to do is use your main group for alpha testing. A platform along the lines of Shalstest would be very handy if I ever get to that point.?

Thanks again,
Bruce

Bruce,

"Track Removed Members" sounds like chipping them with a miniaturized
GPS, but I think I know what it really means.

It means there's one more list in your group's Members page selection:
"Past"; in addition to the usual Members, Moderators, Pending Approval, Bouncing, and Banned. It includes both Removed (by moderator) and Left (on their own).

* "API access" -- What features of the basic GIO package can I
customize/enhance via the interface? What are the function
calls/hooks, and where is the documentation?

I haven't delved into this at all. But here's documentation and support for it:
/api

Despite greater understanding of search engine features, I've been
unable to track down any threads on this topic either here or in beta.

There had been a lot of discussion in beta of (the failings of) the previous search engine implementation, but I don't think any of that adds up to a "how to" with the current implementation.

Thank you for spearheading this in GMF's wiki.

Shal


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The way I understand it, the Directory is a essentially a listing of group profiles for those members who have chosen to create one. As such, only those who have a profile and choose to share it with others will show up.

Although group owners can restrict directory visibility to Moderators or even disable it altogether, they cannot force visibility between subscribers who haven't opted in.?

Bruce