Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 03:51 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:

Yes, something should be done about this problem ASAP.

Anyone can come up with a specific proposal and make it on the group, where Mark can see it and respond as he sees fit. You don't need the permission of anyone here to do that.

Pete?

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46336

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The continuing failure of logic on this subject is based upon absolutist thinking.

I believe the majority of group owners agree there should be a designation of succession. ?It should be for the existing owner and/or members how that should occur. ?All that is needed is agreement from as to the formalities of implementation. ?That requires discussion among open minds.?

I believe this should be a new specific “change of owner” option within , no different than the other present options. ?Those not in favor can simply ignore it without denying others said option.

Group founder/owners are those logically responsible for whether or not there is a “succession plan” in place. ?There may be NO person/persons deemed qualified and interested in accepting group ownership responsibility immediately TODAY. ?

This is why more than a few groups have only one owner…not because they WANT it that way, but because they see more potential problems with currently available options. ?That’s why they refuse to adopt options they see as inappropriate or inapplicable. ?That’s what “needs fixing”.

Successful and predictable management succession is complex and subject to oversimplification. ?It is those who want a quick and easy “solution” that believe no problem exists. ?That’s simply not true.

Any succession ultimately made without prior Owner input based on history/experience is less likely to succeed in the long term. ?Whenever a group’s owner dies or is incapacitated, it expires and its history is forever lost. THAT is our problem re-stated.

Group founder/owner(s) should have option to designate one or more potential successors to become “Group Owner” upon prior owner’s death or incapacitation. ?They should also have the option to designate another person or procedure to assure completion of such transfer because the mere passage of time can change circumstances (such as interest or health) such that the logical choice of today may prove unwise or impossible tomorrow. ?

Owner’s death or incapacitation may prompt others to volunteer to “take over”. ?There should be a procedure then available (as determined by and acceptable to ) UNLESS the existing Group founder/owner(s) indicates in writing that they WISH the groups to expire upon such occurance. ?This would give hope in the situation described by Bob McGraw.

In some groups there are opposing factions. ?The designated group owner is the person best able to appoint a successor to “carry the flame” into the future. If they wish to continue to serve until they cannot, that option cannot be guaranteed today. ?

It isn’t a matter of what’s presently “in the FAC”, but what ISN’T. ?That said, I agree "This question has come up over and over.” ?

Yes, something should be done about this problem ASAP. ?This is why I advocate that appointment of a single successor owner (as opposed potentially competing multiples) should be a process initiated by immediate need and not attempt to see into the fog of the future with some inflexible legacy.

Sincerely,

William R.. Bayne

—?

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On Feb 18, 2024, at 11:05 AM, Bruce Bowman <bowman46118@...> wrote:

The problem here is that Bob has no official capacity within the group. He isn't even a member. While his claims are likely to be true, there's no way to corroborate that independently. Evidence can be faked, and even "voting the current owner off the island" by polling existing members has its problems. Thus support's hands are tied.?

The group owner owns the group, not the members. He should be able to run it as he sees fit. If he wants it to wither from neglect, that's his right. If when he dies, he wants it to die with him, that's his right, too. He should not be subject to ouster by those who think they know how to do things better, even if it's just from a misunderstanding. If that happens even once, that's once too many.??

This question has come up over and over and that's why it's in the FAQ. If you think it might become a problem, do something about it now. You cannot buy life insurance after you're already dead.

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Question on subject text formatting/processing #misc

#46335

I experimented by adding multiple more spaces, and they actually exist if you go back and Edit the Topic Properties. They simply do not display, which I suspect is “a Mark thing.”

I think don't that's exactly?concatenation, but regardless try using a hard space character (alt-255 on your num-pad; “nbsp”).?

There are other software that tend to lose extra spaces, <CRs> etc as when I create a text block or add text to a PDF and I have to cheat in order to have a blank line hold (start the line with s “.”)

Re: Group Forum owner is deceased. Reset?

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

#46334

I have written a letter and sent it by snail mail to the address of the last owner of record, hoping a relative will respond.    If I can't raise a moderator, or owner and can't get approval, that is a dead end.   Likewise, if the moderator of record does not have privileges provided, then there can be no owner assigned.   The only hope is that some person in the administration at groups.io will be able to intervene.   

73
Bob, K4TAX

Not understanding “Special Notice”

#46333

I initiated a Topic and posted it as a Special Notice. ?But I cannot add another msg to that Topic as a Special Notice (in order to make sure that it reaches members with notifications set to ‘Only Special Notices’, plus draw attention to it.)

Does a special notice topic “remain” a Special Notice, so that follow-up messages by a mod get that treatment?

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

#46332

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Bruce et al;

I was once the Owner of the TentecEagle group.?? I elected to retire and turn the ownership over to another person.? Most recently,? I needed to search the Messages for some information and found that as a non-member, I can't do that.? I subscribed and received a message to "reply to this message to confirm membership".? I did that and my membership is still pending.?

My efforts raised the attention of others who find themselves in the same situation.??? For me, it makes no difference who is Owner or Moderator.? I just would like for them to do their job.? From my recent experience and that of others, seems there is no one alive to further the group membership.? Surely there has to be some way to salvage the messages, data, files and such for a group.??

It seems that the owner, Gary K0DVN, has locked the group.?? My research indicates the owner, Gary K0DVN, is deceased and his ham radio call/license was taken over by a relative, according to FCC records.?? And I find that relative is now deceased as found in the Houston TX obituaries.?? Valid documentation in my thinking.

If there was a way to download the member roster, messages, and files, I would be most glad to start a group of similar name with the history of the original group.? I've yet to get the attention of the administration of the parent? Groups.IO.??? I have tried to locate Mark Fletcher and know the site is hosted in? Portola Valley, CA.

I am still trying to salvage the TentecEagle group that has a membership of 403 members, 6273 Topics.

I'm just hoping for help or assistance to make this happen.

Thanks in advance

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/18/2024 11:05 AM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

The problem here is that Bob has no official capacity within the group. He isn't even a member. While his claims are likely to be true, there's no way to corroborate that independently. Evidence can be faked, and even "voting the current owner off the island" by polling existing members has its problems. Thus support's hands are tied.?

The group owner owns the group, not the members. He should be able to run it as he sees fit. If he wants it to wither from neglect, that's his right. If when he dies, he wants it to die with him, that's his right, too. He should not be subject to ouster by those who think they know how to do things better, even if it's just from a misunderstanding. If that happens even once, that's once too many.??

This question has come up over and over and that's why it's in the FAQ. If you think it might become a problem, do something about it now. You cannot buy life insurance after you're already dead.

Regards,
Bruce

Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

--
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46331

I believe it essential to have multiple Group owners. My son is my estate trustee; he joined every one of my Groups and I made him an Owner. He is not interested in Group messages so we set his preference to No Email. If I can no longer manage or I pass, he can announce that and ask what Group members want to do. The key is that a co-owner does not necessarily have to be a current Group participant, just someone you trust.

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Related topic: it is wise to have Group ownership under your own alternative email addresses.

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Larry

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-------- Original message --------

From: Pete Cook <peterscottcook@...>

Date: 2/18/24 9:32 AM (GMT-08:00)

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: [GMF] Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

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This issue has been discussed, and technical solutions proposed, many many many many times. My take on Frances' post is that given the way things are NOW, each of us needs to decide how important the continuation of the group is if we're unable to continue, and then to act accordingly with the tools that we have.

In my case I have two very trusted co-owners and we share moderator responsibilities. When I was in the hospital last year and out of commission for a long time, they took over seamlessly. If the worst had happened we'd then still have one owner with a backup. I understand that there are objections to the co-owner tactic but my bet is it would work for a great many groups.

Pete

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46330

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 05:57 AM, Duane wrote:

As I see it, the PROBLEM is that owners won't use the existing solutions or aren't aware that they can privately pass on ownership when they die.? Of all people, I learned about digital estates from my non-techy ex-wife! ;>)

Duane: Thank you (and your ex) for bringing this to our attention. It has? important implications and applications above and beyond the question of Groups.io Owner succession. Still, the PROBLEM, as you point out, is the necessity of doing something now, whether it is empowering a backup Owner or doing some digital estate planning. It seems obvious to me that the person to whom you would entrust your digital estate in the future is also trustworthy enough to be added as an Owner right now.

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Robert R.

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46329

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 11:32 AM, Pete Cook wrote:

In my case I have two very trusted co-owners and we share moderator responsibilities.

On this group, GMF, there are currently 3 owners, Shal (founder), David, and me.? We've never met since we're in different parts of the world and only know each other from the group, but we don't seem to have any problems.? When I'm unsure of how to handle something, I try to contact Shal (who's been busy with life), but sometimes have to make decisions on my own.? If I make a mistake, I take it to heart and learn from it.? We often confer with the mods if/when a situation arises that may need to be addressed, including adding more moderators.

Duane
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Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46328

This issue has been discussed, and technical solutions proposed, many many many many times. My take on Frances' post is that given the way things are NOW, each of us needs to decide how important the continuation of the group is if we're unable to continue, and then to act accordingly with the tools that we have.

In my case I have two very trusted co-owners and we share moderator responsibilities. When I was in the hospital last year and out of commission for a long time, they took over seamlessly. If the worst had happened we'd then still have one owner with a backup. I understand that there are objections to the co-owner tactic but my bet is it would work for a great many groups.

Pete

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46327

The problem here is that Bob has no official capacity within the group. He isn't even a member. While his claims are likely to be true, there's no way to corroborate that independently. Evidence can be faked, and even "voting the current owner off the island" by polling existing members has its problems. Thus support's hands are tied.?

The group owner owns the group, not the members. He should be able to run it as he sees fit. If he wants it to wither from neglect, that's his right. If when he dies, he wants it to die with him, that's his right, too. He should not be subject to ouster by those who think they know how to do things better, even if it's just from a misunderstanding. If that happens even once, that's once too many.??

This question has come up over and over and that's why it's in the FAQ. If you think it might become a problem, do something about it now. You cannot buy life insurance after you're already dead.

Regards,
Bruce

Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46326

Hi Bob

As has been said there isn't a straight forward way

If yours is a paid for group you may have some luck contacting groups.io for help, I am not saying they ignore free groups, they don't but paid for are likely to get priority

But looking at your posting history its tailed off considerably and unfortunately the archives are member only

I was going to suggest starting a new group and inviting those still reading in the existing group to join, assuming you are still a subscriber but the archive would be lost

Having said that it may similar to what we had with the demise of rootsweb for genealogy lists, much was said about the loss of the archives but I don't think many bother to check them these days, your situation may be completely different of course

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

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On 18/02/2024 16:18, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
I have a situation where the  TentecEagle group has one owner.  That person is deceased as well as the person that has taken his ham radio call.   Is there any way or provision to gain membership or ownership access in order to use the history of data, files, etc.
Thanks in advance
Bob, K4TAX

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

Paula Hansen, NFSS Band Secretary

#46325

If the TentecEagle group is only in IO than contact IO and ask your questions to them as to their policy for such cases. The group is under their jurisdiction
.

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46324

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 11:17 AM, Carol Collins wrote:

What happens if there's absolutely no interest in anyone volunteering to be either a co-owner or moderator, even after several requests? My group is nearing its fourth anniversary and no one has expressed any interest in helping. I'm going to try requesting again on our fourth anniversary, but it's frustrating.

Always the way with volunteering, isn't it? Someone suggested giving someone the powers (or perhaps moderator with all powers except the ability to change owner's privileges) but telling them they don't have to do anything. Just a safety net.?
See?
/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/managing-moderators-and-additional-owners/making-a-member-an-owner-or-moderator

Frances
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Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

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Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46323

Hi
Not sure but couldn't Mark or one of the mods here make you in to a owner?

“How lucky I am to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard.”- - Winnie the Pooh
[solicitation removed by moderator]

? Sugar

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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw - K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2024 8:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

I have a situation where the  TentecEagle group has one owner.  That person is deceased as well as the person that has taken his ham radio call.   Is there any way or provision to gain membership or ownership access in order to use the history of data, files, etc. 

Thanks in advance
Bob, K4TAX

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

#46322

I have a situation where the  TentecEagle group has one owner.  That person is deceased as well as the person that has taken his ham radio call.   Is there any way or provision to gain membership or ownership access in order to use the history of data, files, etc. 

Thanks in advance
Bob, K4TAX

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46321

What happens if there's absolutely no interest in anyone volunteering to be either a co-owner or moderator, even after several requests? My group is nearing its fourth anniversary and no one has expressed any interest in helping. I'm going to try requesting again on our fourth anniversary, but it's frustrating.

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46320

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We had a situation occur like this, a few years ago, where an owner had passed away. And the moderator of the group got promoted to owner. I believe, that you can request this to be done via groups. iOS support email address.

Joseph Hudson

EmailFaceTime/iMessage

jhud7789@...

Connect with me on zoom

https://us06web.zoom.us/j/3437608339?pwd=akNsMHlLTWsyWmk0UXdSaVdsSkhNUT09

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On Feb 18, 2024, at 2:02?AM, Andy Wedge <andy_wedge@...> wrote:

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 07:52 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:

No "Owner Succession" feature (a Group 'will') is a flaw that Groups.io (and YahooGroups) share(d).
Surely the 'flaw' is with the group owner that fails to consider to the consequences for other members if they are no longer around or able to manage the group.? Having any kind of transfer option puts some responsibility onto Groups.io to verify that whatever information they are sent when a transfer of ownership is requested, is genuine.? I can image the arguments if a transfer of ownership is made and then the request is found to be based on false information.

Regards
Andy?

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46319

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 09:34 AM, outlawmws wrote:

The current "Solutions" are inadequate and extremely limiting.

My questions are:
What is the problem of adding a co-owner?
If you don't want a co-owner, what's wrong with having a moderator with all permissions?? Or less than all, but enough to run the group?
What are you trying to do that can't be done with the current features?? This needs to be stated clearly or there will never be an option available.

I consider myself the current caretaker of the information in any groups that I "own", as well as on my web site.? Many people have contributed to the data, not just me.? I've given co-ownership on all my groups, just in case, but have discussed the situation with those people that they don't have to do anything as long as I'm around.? If they completely change the group, or even delete it, after I'm gone, I won't care!

Duane
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Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

Re: Caution, if your group has only 1 owner

#46318

I wrote the initial post in this thread because I wanted to alert those who wish their groups to continue even if they are not around. If they wish their group to go on as long as there are others who are interested, the owner needs to do something about it before they become incapacitated.

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However it depends on the nature of the group. If it is simply a personal project, it may not matter. Each owner is the best judge of that.

I have read some interesting points and suggestions. Please post something on Beta where the owner Mark Fletcher can read it, and perhaps put it on his to-do list.

Having a second owner is not a rule. I personally think it is best practice for many groups, at least for now.

Frances

--
Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

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