Before I submit to the beta group, when I look at our ADMIN > member list, the filter at the top shows member setting attributes such as banned, bounced, moderators, etc.? ? But I cannot filter to locate moderated members (group setting overrides.)

Is this a #BUG or am I missing something?

Is there any other filter that should be added?

thx
Ken

开云体育

Erynn,

I think Ken hit it on the head; I wouldn't worry too much about this, provided your subgroup is genuinely discussing something vs promoting it, and it really does come down to concise rules and their application, to keep folks in line and keep the peace.

You are (kinda) right insofar that (some of) the rules are (somewhat) "vague" but that's by design; there is no practical way one can create an explicit list that accounts for everything that is and is not allowed in such a wildly-diverse universe that GIO is.

Don't forget there's some grey area in terms of the actual usage reality in this universe; e.g., "No Pornography, adult content, or nudity".? I guarantee you there is plenty of "pornography", i.e. adult content, or nudity being shared daily in the form of written or meme jokes, cartoons, attached images/scans of nude playboy centerfolds, nude calendar pics, etc; all one needs is a private group and a closed circle/group of like-minded people.? Or "Groups that share media or content whose distribution would be in violation of copyright law"; pfft, I again guarantee you that there are plenty of groups where folks share scanned copyrighted material, albeit for research or assistance purposes, but sometimes to a degree that's skirting -and in some cases technically breaking- copyright laws.? Model-building and similar groups do this a lot, I belong to a few of those groups and I know!? Or "Groups that are designed strictly to use the Groups.io directory as an advertisement for something other than the group itself", I bet there are groups that are cleverly (and carefully) using the group for advertising and profiting purposes, probably seriously-skirting or even crossing the boundary line, and they haven't been caught yet.

I also suspect that, while Mark more than likely does have some active auditing processes to catch blatantly-obvious violations, something like a specific keyword filter could return a ton of messages and I bet he has better things to do that going through each message to determine if it's a genuine discussion vs a promoting message; I mean a search for the word "qanon" for example in all of GIO's message archives would return a ton of messages, most -if not all- innocent messages that just used the word in some innocent context.? I highly doubt GIO has AI filtering/auditing code like (or to the extend of) FB or Tweeter does, but I could be wrong.

I don't know what the process is when someone reports a group but I'd think that, at the very least, nothing happens to the group itself for now, at the very worst, the group gets locked and hidden temporarily, until Mark looks into the report.? If the report was malicious, i.e. someone did it out of spite or to cause trouble, I'd think the group would be reinstated with no problems, and then it would be up to the mods to unleash their wrath on the person who caused this (unnecessary) trouble.? So like Shal suggested, make the rules (and consequences of not following them) crystal clear to the members.? Then moderate the group and discussion and you'll be fine.

Cheers,
Christos

On 03/01/2021 22:23, Mark Murphy wrote:

I’m proposing this topic for members to share suggestions with the wider forum here. I suggest we concentrate on practical methods owners and members could use.

I'd like to comment on the practical side of things. Let's accept that this pricing change means that most groups that choose to use Groups.io will eventually become paying groups, and therefore their founders have to consider this pretty much from the beginning of the group's running.

(Perhaps GMF should make this clear as a best practise: if you don't intend to convert to a paying group, and you expect that your group might exceed 75 members at some time, rather go with Google Groups.)

$220 per year is for a premium group of any size (including 20, 50 or 100 members), but a prudent group owner might decide to upgrade by the time his group has about 75 members. And although $220 equates to 55c per member if you have 400 members or more, $220 is more like $2.50 per member by the time the group decides to upgrade.

A good idea would be to charge your members $2.50 per year from the start. This would help grow a bit of a buffer initially and it would help users get into the habit of paying for the subscription.

However, one must not forget that members who do not pay can also contribute to the group in various ways (even if they never post anything, their presence has a positive effect.) For this reason I think it may be better for many types of groups that some members subsidize others. In other words, some members will be paying e.g. $5 per year and others will be allowed to pay nothing.

This is great in theory, but the problem becomes: how to convince paying members that it's worth paying. Not all group owners would want to spend their time figuring out ways to come up with special content that paying members may be willing to pay for. The ideal, I think, is that paying members pay voluntarily (for the good of the group), but not all paying members may be willing to do that indefinitely.

One tactic may be to state that long-time members should pay, while members who have only recently joined are allowed to participate for free. In other words, if you discover after a year or two that you like being a member of the group, then you must start paying for it.

Precisely how the donations or subscriptions are gathered would be up to the group owner and members. Ideally, the group owner would figure out a number of ways of accepting payments (add this to the GMF wiki) and then just accept payments like that. PayPal, Stripe, direct transfer, coupons (you know, the type that scammers use) etc.

Something else is important: how to ensure that donations are safe from dishonest group owners. And: what are the tax implications for group owners to be sitting on a bunch of money for a number of years until the group goes premium.

Samuel

On 4 Jan 2021 at 18:54, Shal Farley wrote:

Ken,

> ... but if an owner uses his/her own bank account to collect money for
> a "donation" to GROUPS.IO wouldn't he/she be liable for income taxes
> on that money?

This concern was raised in the beta "Pricing Changes" topic. And is a
part of my motivation for the "Simplified Donation feature #suggestion":


I'm also not a tax accountant, but I believe that (at least in the U.S.)
the answer is no. But (strangely) the giver may be required report it if
it exceeds a substantial exclusion per recipient.

In UK the answer is yes. I am a (long retired) tax accountant (among other
things).

Jim Fisher

One approach to paying for a group is to set it up as a business run by the group owner. I write books and make a little money at it. When I sold my first book I had my tax accountant set up a writing business for me. He designed books for the business (actually a spreadsheet) in which I record income and expenses for the business. That simple spreadsheet is all there is to it. No LLC or other business entity. So simple he just threw it in it as part of doing our taxes.

Some years, the writing makes a little, most years, it breaks even or loses some. The years it loses, the loss decreases my taxes slightly. The years it profits, I pay more taxes. Also only slightly.

I suspect the same could be done for operating a group. It's simple and a lot less trouble than establishing and maintaining a 501(c)(3) non-profit. Your members could not claim their membership as a charitable donation, but in my experience, charitable donations have to be substantial before they affect your taxes. Unless you plan on making money off your group for a charitable purpose, rather than just paying groups.io fees, I doubt that establishing a 501(c)(3) would be worth the trouble. If Mark ever wants proof that you are not running a group for profit, showing him your books ought to do it. If you do show a profit, more power to you!

This is just my personal experience. I'm not a lawyer or a registered accountant, so don't take my word for it.
Best, Marv

--
Help: /helpcenter
More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list

--
Help: /helpcenter
More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list

For what it's worth:

I disagree with your prise that the rules are vague.? You have to parse the clauses.? There's a very clear difference between members openly "discussing" Pizzagate, and the group itself's?purpose being "dedicated to promoting" Pizzagate.?

There's no confusing those two unless the group itself is "promoting" and is indeed attempting to disguise it as "discussing."? Moderating the posts would in itself demonstrate that it is openly discussing, not promoting (ass/u/ing that the moderation is leaning toward the truth and not fiction.)

No one has any right not to be censured on a private chat or email group or media platform. It pertains to government control.? If a member is off-base as to the group owners' rules, and the posting is controlled (moderated, censured, whatever you want to call it,) then too damn bad.? Either conform to the rules or pack your bags.? Start your own discussion on Parler.? Newspapers censure every minute -- editors control which off-base and whacko 'letters to the editor' get printed and which do not.? No one has a Constitutional right to have nonsense and hate and outright lies spewed froth without repercussions.? That only protected speech in the committees and subcommittees of Congress hearings!!

It seems to me that the group owners need to tighten and narrow down whatever rules for the subgroup, rather than expect GIO to do the hard work.? ?Post the Webster definitions of "promote" vs "discuss" in the subgroup rules (with examples if appropriate) and enforce them, with an explanation if necessary.? Moderating is like parenting, or at least what parenting used to be.

On 04/01/2021 07:24, Shal Farley wrote:

Mark has ruled out the use of donations to support Groups.io itself (I think that's what he meant) but I'm still hopeful that he'll implement features to make it easier for group owners to use donations from group members to make the group's plan payments.

I'm not a lawyer, nor an accountant.

Soliciting donations can be a minefield.
One issue is having the appropriate licenses to solicit donations.
Taxes are a second issue.

I've forgotten the court case citation. A church run afoul of the county ordinance on soliciting donations, by not having the appropriate license. That the soliciting of donations was confined to passing the collection plate during the church service was irrelevant.

jonathon

[Digital signature removed by Moderator]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:16 PM, Carla Nelson wrote:

Sorry to be slow, but where do I find the “no resizing” option (I am a new owner still learning). I poked around in the Admin/settings looking for anything about size but somehow missed it.

Go to Admin, Settings. Scroll down to Features, Photos.
See

Max Size In Photos Section?

?
Use the menu there to choose the first choice - no resizing.?
I use 1024 x 1024 rather than no resizing.

Members can also make changes to attachment size. In Subscription, Adv preferences. In Message Selection.
A member can decide on max attachment size in emails. If an attachment is larger, then a link is provided instead.

Frances



--

---

Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

?

开云体育

Shal,

I did a five year?projection based on the NEW pricing plan.

In the pricing plan Mark has defined the three list types by member size:

Free (Basic) - 100 members

Premium (Paid) - 400 members

Enterprise (Paid) - 1000 members

You are right, for the first year (2021), my list would be an Enterprise list cloaked as a Basic (Free) list, saving $4400/year by legacy pricing.? If Mark's pricing plan per member reflects

his cost per member to remain viable,? I don't think giving away $22,000 in revenue over five years is sustainable.

I also assumed that there wouldn't be a major price change for three years.? Admittedly this is overly optimistic, as there have been two pricing changes in the last two years.? And that also assumes?

that the pricing changes do not require adjustment (upward) for three years.? Finally I assumed that after three years providing Enterprise size lists with Free service will no longer be sustainable and

that Free lists of Premium size (or larger) will have to be converted to a paid list for groups.io to be sustainable in the near future.

So I presented my list with three basic five year scenarios:

1. Staying as a Basic list with a forced upgrade to Premium after three years at an annual cost of $1100 a year for $2200 total cost over five years
2. Upgrading now to Premium at $220/year for a five year annual cost of $1100
3. Staying as a basic list with a forced upgrade to Enterprise after three years at an annual cost of $4400 per year for $8800 total cost over five years.

My list is choosing #2 at 81% of the votes cast.

I made some?na?ve (not based on inside knowledge) assumptions:

1. Mark is committed to?a sustainable business model with higher cost lists paying for their service.
2. That it will take three years before additional pricing changes are made.
3. That Legacy paid lists will be? upgraded to fee per member pricing AFTER large free lists are asked to upgrade
4. That the fee per member pricing for a Premium list can be avoided in the next five years by upgrading to Premium before Jan18th.
5. That Free lists that have grown into the size of a Premium or Enterprise lists will need to become paid lists in the future.

The view five years from now is much different than the view today.? My list members recognize that our list size does not justify continuation as a free list and

they are willing to become a Paid list to sustain the list in the future.? In return image storage can be increased since the space available is sixty times larger than what we have been using.

The Enterprise plan far exceeds are needs as do the costs exceed are ability to pay.? The list would disband it forced to upgrade to Enterprise level.

--
ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

As new moderators of a 20-year-old group that has migrated from Yahoo,? we have some questions about the below listed restricted dedicated groups and content.

We decided to open a subgroup for OT discussion from the main group mission. We hoped to have an open dialogue on various topics that might include but are not specific to? politics, health, etc.? As it turns out, some of our more vocal members have alternative views and post information and links to support the info they share. Our subgroup is not dedicated to any of the below-restricted groups or content.? However, some of these subjects do arise and our members would like to share and discuss them openly without restriction. They feel that that the groupsio definition of "restricted groups and content" is too vague and undefined, leaving the members and moderators to decide arbitrarily what is acceptable and what is a violation. They feel moderation can and will be based on moderators' own personal predilections. They feel censured and unsure of what is appropriate to post. And moderators are unsure of what discussions will be seen as violating groupsio restricted content. Members have demanded, tongue in cheek, for a list of approved topics...Definitions of conspiracy theories, hoaxes, and approved sources.? They are a lively bunch.

As a moderator, we see value in the sharing and discussion of information that falls into some of the restricted categories to be discussed, questioned, and debated. Otherewise they head back to the echo chambers. But I am worried there will be repercussions of some sort if topics or content crosses the somewhat invisible lines? The priority is the Main list and its mission. We would let the discussion happen, as long as it remains civil and respectful, and take our chances. But not if it can affect our Main group or our good standing on groups.io.? It would help to know what the repercussions might be so we can let the members know. They need to know that the moderators are not moderating willy nilly.?

My questions are:

• If we allow open discussion in our subgroup of topics related to politics and health, which may fall into the categories listed below, will we be violating the iogroups guidelines?
• What makes a group or subgroup" dedicated or promotion of"?
• What happens to groups that accidentally violate these guidelines? Can consequences affect the Main-group? Is a warning issued??
• How does iogroups know what's being discussed? Can it see the conversations??

Our priority is our Main group which has a very narrow focus, with no issue.
We opened the subgroup so people that connect in one area can discuss more freely in other areas not specific to the main group, as not to distract from the mission.? We didn't realize that there were groups.io restrictions and we did not realize that our members would want to discuss things that broached those categories. We as moderators are looking for clarity to help guide our members and ourselves.?

We welcome any thoughts and information and experience that this group can share! Thank you in advance.?



/helpcenter/faq/1/group-owner-moderator-faq/q-what-types-of-groups-are-not

A:?Groups.io does not permit these types of groups and content:

• Pornography, adult content, or nudity
• Harassment of any kind
• Groups that share media or content whose distribution would be in violation of copyright law
• Groups dedicated to the promotion of extreme, hateful, or exclusionary ideas, including, but not limited to, the alt-right
• Groups dedicated to the promotion of conspiracy theories, including, but not limited to, Gamergate, Pizzagate, and Qanon
• Groups dedicated to the promotion of anti-vaccination ideologies
• Groups that are designed strictly to use the Groups.io directory as an advertisement for something other than the group itself

Sorry to be slow, but where do I find the “no resizing” option (I am a new owner still learning). I poked around in the Admin/settings looking for anything about size but somehow missed it.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 03:47 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:

You don't mention how you are exactly viewing these images. Is this after you have sent it via Groups.io or before?

After uploading! I am usually composing on the web, using insert to bring in a pic. The pictures look clear on my camera roll, but once inserted into a forum post it is blurred. This makes it hard to read screenshots.

Many thanks Frances

Exactly what I was looking for

I had not envisaged creating any more so hadn't saved the pdf from when I think you posted before

Now I find I may need to as a group owner has passed away and there does not seem to be a way of taking over a group

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 11:03 AM, Nivard Ovington wrote:

I have searched the wiki but could not find anything on the changes and the dates thereof to free groups

I created one 8th November 2020 and wanted to know what facilities it has compared to one created now

You can start with this document in Files on GMF.
/g/GroupManagersForum/files/Groups.io%20features%20%28includes%20legacy%20stuff%29.pdf
As you see, there are no changes since November 2020.

And for the upcoming changes, see?

Frances

?
--

---

Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

?

I have searched the wiki but could not find anything on the changes and the dates thereof to free groups

I created one 8th November 2020 and wanted to know what facilities it has compared to one created now


--
Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

I totally agree with you that the pictures are not as good as say Yahoo. There are other topics on this in the GMF and you can search the archives - try blurry.

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:41 PM, Susan D'Entremont wrote:

What's the catch??

I was not on the BOD when the contract was made with Morgan, the owner of Groupworks. I was a beta tester and helped implement the roll out nationwide to a non profit. Morgan and Spencer, co-founders of GW are both very accessble by phone and are great at handholding and support.

I am sure much has changed in the past 3 years, so it would be best to contact them directly if interested. I don't know of the catch. Like GIO being entirely free and full featured just 18 months ago, GW's vision was to meet the needs for clubs using a no cost model to the club owners. Like Mark has discovered with GIO, the GW free "no catch" model may not be sustainable going forward. However, in the past few months GW has introduced one discreet, static ad on each screen so I suspect that is now their funding source.

I find most GW users are over 55. They are the sort that don't want to deal with headaches of configuring group settings, managing subscriptions, etc. They just want to log in and have all their club information presented to them.

Personally, my problem with Groupworks is the fact that it's web only access. Where GIO offers real-time individual email delivery and exchange of information over email, Group Works forces users to communicate only by logging into their website. Their digest is limited to none, daily, weekly or 3 times a week. It contains a subject only and I found myself wasting time to log in only to discover the post was of no interest to me.?There is no way to communicate?a pressing, time sensitive matter to the members of your group. You would have to use traditional email to do that.?

But for clubs and hobbyists whose sole reason is routine meeting information, event registration, dues collection and record keeping, access to newsletters, files calendars, tutorials, meetings, etc it works well. Especially if your members are computer challenged or elderly. The font is large and high contrast for easier reading. The help files are large print PDFs and videos.

GW group Owners have ultimate control over their group members with direct add, removal and email address changes. Individuals cannot join GW. They can only join if the group owner or admin directly adds their name and email. At that point, the member receives an email from GW to create a password. Once they do that and log in, they land on their club's homepage.

GW serves a niche need in the online group world.
--
Sandi Dickenson