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Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group
Peter,
I get the same issue with group+owner, and I use Thunderbird.Thanks for that! I really didn't think it was a Microsoft issue, as I think there are many group members using Outlook in one form or another, and we'd no doubt have heard of this already. ----- With the clarity of morning comes the realization that the header To: field has the correct (+owner) address, even in the misdirected message. So, the recommended fix to Groups.io may be, in cases where the message is delivered to Groups.io directly from btinternet.com, trust the header To field over the envelope To. Or at least compare them and make a decision. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Bottom Quotes in Digests
Is it just me, or have bottom quotes recently begun to disappear from formatted digests?
Nick's posts 18730 and 18731 arrived in my inbox via digest without any context...but the quotes do appear in the message archive, so they must have been sent. Not sure if this is a bug or a feature... From yesterday's system update:
Bruce -- The system Help is your friend.??/static/help |
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Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group
Peter,
I am going to send two messages to [email protected], onemain@shalstest has the "Allow Non Subscribers to Post" box checked, so your message arrived in the Pending queue for moderation. I checked that before asking you to send in a message. Alas, nothing in the header offered me a clue. None of the Received fields bothered to include a "for" clause that might have revealed the envelope To: content at that step. I am guessing the second will be routed correctly. I will copy both toDamn Gmail. I forgot that it would irrevocably hide from my view the second message (the copy through the +owner address). I really do hate that misfeature with a passion. And I also failed to check my alternate mod addresses, which weren't set to send me non-subscriber +owner messages. Oops, that one's on me. ----- At any rate, one interesting distinction between the one that was sent by your email client and the one that was Webmail is the path they took. The client SMTP message: Your laptop (Outlook Express 6) --> synchonoss.net --> btinternet.com --> Gmail & Groups.io The Webmail message: yahoo.com --> yahoo.com --> Gmail (& presumably Groups.io) Which is consistent with my failure to be able to reproduce the problem using my Yahoo mail account by way of its webmail interface. Sue used Outlook 14 on her laptop, but otherwise the message followed the same path as your first example. So implicated are Microsoft, synchonoss.net and btinternet.com. Alas, I can't think of a way to determine which one. Well, I guess we could rule out (or convict) Microsoft if one of you were to try a different client app (e.g. Thunderbird). Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Ken,
How does GIO check/verify the sender?My understanding is that Groups.io does the standard connection-time checks to see that the connecting machine has valid DNS records identifying it as a mail server (aka, a "reverse DNS" lookup). That takes out the classic sort of spambot: a malware-infected PC that is running its own SMTP code to connect and deliver mal-mail. Given that nearly every receiving service has a defense against this type of source, I'm not sure if they are still out there. But they probably are, just to nail the remainder. I'd guess there's ways for a mal sender to spoof the "From" addressYup. Forging the From address is only a little more difficult than writing someone else's return address on a postal envelope. ... but I'd suspect email servers check and dump messages (never makeCorrect. Most email servers have closed their "open relay" ports, meaning that applications like Thunderbird or other remote software must now authenticate with valid user credentials in order to send mail to that server by SMTP. Finding and exploiting unlocked SMTP relays is another technique the crooks use to get to you. If they find an open relay they can exploit the fact that that server /does/ have a valid DNS record as a mail server - thus getting past that first line of defense (above). The fact that there are still "open relays" in the world is one reason a receiving service might use a third-party RBL (real-time blacklist) to reject messages from such sources. Sometimes I suppose the crook might manage to set up and register an email service of his own, so he doesn't have to find open ones. I don't know if/how Groups.io handles these cases. The majority of mal-mail that reaches me these days I think is none of the above. I think these scam-malware-spam messages originate at compromised email accounts at otherwise legit email services. In this case authentication was required, but by means of phishing or otherwise the crooks were able to obtain the login password for that account and use it. These mails generally do not have a forged from address, though the Display Name, Subject, and Message Body are of course a complete lie intended to fool you. With an open relay, an owned server, or a compromised account the mal-mail won't arrive in your group unless the sender does actually forge the address part of the From field to match one of your group members' address. In this case there is still one more check Groups.io could do, but doesn't. It could do something akin to a DMARC check to ensure that the domain written in the email part of the From field matches the domain of the server that connected to theirs. That is, if a message's From field says it is from me@..., but it was given to Groups.io by a server from yahoo.com, then the message is a priori a "spoof" - a forged From address. The last time I talked with Mark about this his reason for not performing this check is that it would reject too much of his inbound traffic which is actually "legit" but breaks that check. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Shal
What you say makes a ton of sense.? I didn't notice the option of the source code. How does GIO check/verify the sender?? I have no idea how/method, but I'd guess there's ways for a mal sender to spoof the "From" address (like spoofed robo calls "from" phone numbers) but I'd suspect email servers check and dump messages (never make their way out the door) that don't authenticate it's from an actual email user? -ken |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
Duane, CMGW is Connection Manager Gateway.? I'd guess that there was a problem with GIO making a connection via the manager to secureserver.? The GIO site will keep trying to send emails until it's either successful or gets a bounce reply. I think CMGW must be a part of Nick's setup, not a part of Groups.io. Hence it still sounds like greylisting to me. That is, it probably wasn't so much a problem making a connection as being given a 4xx "try again later" response from CMGW. Finally (five hours later) CMGW gave a 2xx "success" response and passed the message on to the rest of Nick's inbound chain. In the screenshot, rows 0, 1, and 2 would be the inbound leg from Nick to Groups.io, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 would be the outbound leg from Groups.io to Nick's email interface. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Re: Messages to +owner being wrongly routed to the whole group
Peter, It's not quite like simple. The bug occurs "out there" in the internet, not Would you (and/or Sue, if she's listening) kindly send a message to: I'd like to take a look at the header of such a message to see if there's anything to learn from it. You don't need to be a member of shalstest, but perhaps for an extra point of view CC it to my personal email address (which should be available in the From of this message in your email interface). ... but my fear is that almost anywhere in the internet there might be intermediate hosts with Not too likely, for a couple of reasons. First, there's Duane's point regarding the email standard (RFC) specifically disallowing such behavior. Second, in the modern internet most messages route directly from the source server to the destination server. And even in cases where that is not true, the intermediates are usually "hardwired" in the sense of being a part of the source email infrastructure. By which I mean that most likely, for a given sending user, messages will always go through the same intermediaries, or none. ... there may be no easy fix unless we can persuade As an alias perhaps, but certainly not as a replacement for the existing form - it is too deeply entrenched. It may be easier to persuade Groups.io to find some form of "fix" to apply to messages arriving from btinternet (or maybe just the affected subset, and any other affected services) if a way can be found within the message header of determining that part of the user name (the plus and what follows) in the destination address has been trimmed. Hopefully that could be applied to correct all of the email commands, and not just +owner. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 02:55 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
It does appear that the message got held up for five hours at groups.io, but I gotta admit that I don't know what CMGW means.CMGW is Connection Manager Gateway.? I'd guess that there was a problem with GIO making a connection via the manager to secureserver.? The GIO site will keep trying to send emails until it's either successful or gets a bounce reply. Duane -- Help: /static/help GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Search button at the top of Messages list A few site FAQs: /static/pricing#frequently-asked-questions |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 03:32 PM, Nick Schweitzer wrote:
Here is a screen shot of the header analysis...Nick -- It does appear that the message got held up for five hours at groups.io, but I gotta admit that I don't know what CMGW means. Are you the owner of TosaSpokesmen? If not, it's possible that the owners may have some of the subscribers on moderation and could be approving posts out of order. There are a handful of people in my own group who struggle to stay on-topic and I've found it necessary to put them on a moderation override. I'm not aware of any recent groups.io system downtime...maybe someone else here has another explanation? Regards, Bruce -- The system Help is your friend.??/static/help |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
I have a fairly simple setup. I have a domain which is registered with GoDaddy. I am using an email forward to go from that email address straight?to Gmail. I don't think any of those have throttles or greylists that I'm aware of. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Bruce Bowman <bruce.bowman@...> wrote: On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:03 PM, Nick Schweitzer wrote: |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
Here is a screen shot of the header analysis... On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:11 PM Nick Schweitzer <nick@...> wrote:
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Re: bouncing, forgot password
#bouncedemails
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 03:05 PM, Su wrote:
Bruce -- thanks. Would it be possible to merge the accounts rather than simply delete the old? I guess not if she lost the password?Su --?Below are the steps necessary to perform an account merge. 1) Log into the account that you want to inactivate. 2) Pull down the menu at top right and select Account (or browse to?/account) 3) In the "Email" field at the top of the page, enter the address you want to merge into. 4) Click the "Change Email" button. 5) Groups.io will notify you of the fact that the account already exists, and ask if you want to merge them.? 6) Click the blue button below this notification to confirm your intent to merge. 7) An email will be sent to the destination email address.? 8) Clicking on the link in that email will complete the merge. If she can't log into the old account, she won't be able to complete Step 1, and the merge is not possible. Regards, Bruce |
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Re: Out of Order Emails
#bug
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:03 PM, Nick Schweitzer wrote:
Emails are being delayed, sometimes by several hours. Often times they are delivered to some people quickly, and others slowly. Often I will get a reply to a thread before the original email ever hits my inbox.Not really a bug. Among others, cox.net, spectrum and roadrunner are known to delay/throttle mail delivery. If you can get a copy of the header of the delayed message, paste it into the analyzer at?.?This will tell you who's holding things up.? ? Regards, Bruce -- The system Help is your friend.??/static/help |
Shal Farley
Bruce
KWKloeber
Duane
Nick Schweitzer