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Chris, we are a group of 150 retired men between the ages of 65 and 95. Not everyone is computer literate, but we require that all members log on to the web site, at least initially.

Easier would be a longer lasting cookie. Or forcing a password creation.

It would also be safer not to offer the potential to login with you Google it Facebook accounts.
The present requirements for logging in seem arbitrary, without hearing directly from Mark, instead of making assumptions as to why it is being handled this way.

Chris,

I don't /know/, but strongly suspect, that Mark designed the overall
operating system on the basis that there would be sufficient
understanding on the part of Owners, Moderators, and Members to be
able to use Groups.io effectively. He cannot, IMHO, be expected to
deskill it completely; it simply should not be necessary.

Actually, in the early months of beta quite a bit of effort and back-and-forth with Mark went in to streamlining both the sign up and the log in flows as much as possible, and clarifying the layout and wording of those pages.

The humorous (and old) observation was repeated at the time: making it foolproof is an impossible task - the fools are far too clever for that. It isn't so much fools' cleverness, I think, as broadly disparate experiences and expectations that make it virtually impossible to make a system completely intuitive to everyone.

We should make some distinctions here though.

This topic is primarily about the 30-day login expiration. With subtopics on "can it be changed (longer, reset on visit, or indefinite)" and "can the user experience be made clearer (what happened and what to do when it happens)".

I see those as separate issues from members having initial confusion about establishing web access the first time (join flow), including establishing a password if so desired. They are related, but when discussing "user confusion" about accessing a group's web pages it is useful to be clear about whether we're talking about a new user issue, or an on-going issue with expired logins.

(I cannot recall if the GMF wiki is publicly accessible or not;
if it is then members can be simply sent a link to it.)

Yes (as Duane said). GMF's messages too - both intentionally set that way so that we can give links to our group members without them needing to join GMF or know anything about wikis.

Shal


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Bill,

Does Mark rotate the outbound servers?

Not that I know of. Of the 18,000+ messages from groups.io that I've saved in my email, none has been from a different IP.

That's not to say he hasn't (e.g. for groups I'm not in or member services other than Gmail) or won't tomorrow.

Shal


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On 10/28/2018 7:00 PM, Duane wrote:

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 03:50 PM, Dave aj4xv wrote:
421 cxr-ibgw-6008a.stratus.cloudmark.com cmsmtp 66.175.222.12 blocked
I may be wrong, but it looks to me like the security service for cox, cloudmark.com, has blocked groups.io.
Duane

One of my list members on Cox is getting blocked on that same IP, but some messages are arriving OK. Does Mark rotate the outbound servers?

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Bill

Thanks.
I looked at our reason code, and it's showing: 5.3.4 smtp; 552 5.3.4 Message size exceeds fixed maximum message size

I'm going to contact IT to make sure there are no size restrictions in place.

Nicole

You could try using all lower case characters, but I doubt that will help.? I was eventually able to get to the home page of the group, but it took several tries.? It may be a temporary problem with YG!? I did notice that if I go to , I'm redirected to the Italian site.? That may be the problem.? If so, you will probably need to contact [email protected]

Duane
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On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 03:52 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

the "Or You Can" buttons for alternate log in methods (email, Facebook and Google) below

From personal experience, I can tell you that these don't show up if you have adblocker and don't don't disable it for the site, or at least the page.? Since there are no ads, I didn't feel uncomfortable disabling it for the site.

Duane
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On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 03:50 PM, Dave aj4xv wrote:

421 cxr-ibgw-6008a.stratus.cloudmark.com cmsmtp 66.175.222.12 blocked

I may be wrong, but it looks to me like the security service for cox, cloudmark.com, has blocked groups.io.

Duane
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Hi,

I'm trying transferring a Yahoo group by following the instructions, but I get this error:



The name is the right one, how you can see in the following screenshot.



How can I resolve this ASAP?

Thanks,

Francesco

Cox.net is not bouncing all of groups.io. We average 3 or so digests per day and almost 800 or our members receive individual messages so there's a lot going on
We currently have 34 members on cox.net.? Only 3 have been bounced in our history and the latest one of them was June 2017.??
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Founder, Fuchs Friends??
Founder & Executive Director,?

Jim,

My Gio cookie expired within the past day or two... with NO NOTICE to
me that I could request a login link!!!!

This may be the fundamental reason you and I are at odds on this topic.

My login expired sometime last night. Then when I clicked on the Pending button I had open in a browser I was taken direct to the Login screen.

This is the behavior I've always seen when my Groups.io login expires, so I don't see any possibility of confusion about what happened or what needs to be done. The two boxes to enter Email Address and Password at the top, and the "Or You Can" buttons for alternate log in methods (email, Facebook and Google) below.

My browser fills in my Email Address automatically, I paste my password (copied from Password Safe), click the green Log in button, and am taken to my intended destination: in last night's case GMF's Pending list.


If you and others are having a more confusing experience when your login expires then that's what we should be discussing - exactly where you were when it happened, and where it took you.

It is possible that there's a bug or missed case or something that led to your dismay. If we can identify it perhaps it can be corrected.

Say whatever you will, but this 30-day cookie thing is one (maybe the
only one) aspect of groups that Yahoo did much better.

I'll have to wait and see on that one.

I know that historically Yahoo Groups classic used a login cookie with a two-week expiration, and just like Groups.io one had to sign in again periodically.

At some point (maybe around the time of the 2013 Neo roll-out) the Y!Account code changed, but the Y!Group code didn't, with the result that the top bar would indicate that you were logged in, but the Y!Group pages below that would behave as if you were logged out. This became a FAQ in Y!GMF: part of the "browser ritual" was to log out and back in again, resolving the problem. But I haven't noticed that in a while, so perhaps it is no longer the case.

Shal


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Thanks Duane!

The "most recent unsuccessful delivery" of several members is "421 cxr-ibgw-6008a.stratus.cloudmark.com cmsmtp 66.175.222.12 blocked. Refer to Error Codes section at http://postmaster.cox.net/confluence/display/postmaster/Error+Codes for more information. AUP#CXCNCT".

When I check the Cox url, the closest error code I can find is the CXCNCT; listed as "Connection issue from IP address".?

Previous experience leads me to believe that, like most large enterprises, Cox listens when they want, or not at all.

-Dave

In addition to the previous information, /g/GroupManagersForum/topic/15537567, you should look at the delivery history of a few Cox members to see what Response the service gave.? If it's a 2.x.x, that means they accepted the email, but delivery may be deferred for some indeterminate time.? That seems to happen on a regular basis with some services, including Cox.? If it's a 4.y.y code, GIO may keep attempting delivery until it gets through.? If it's a 5.z.z code, there was a fatal error and delivery won't be attempted again.? They may also subscribe to a 3rd party blacklist that has blocked GIO as happened several months ago when an erroneous entry was promulgated to several services.? Complaining to Cox is probably the best resource, if they listen.

Duane
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On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Chris Jones wrote:

I cannot recall if the GMF wiki is publicly accessible or not; if it is then members can be simply sent a link to it.

Yes, the Wiki here is publicly viewable, so a link would work.? Might even be preferred since updates would need to be noticed and copied to another group when made.? I'd make members aware that these are on another group to reduce possible confusion though.? Possibly have your own Wiki link to them and include the advisory.

Duane
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Hello,

We've discovered that since October 27th, messages from Groups.io are not being delivered to cox.net addresses. As best I can tell, Cox is having "connection issues" to the 66.175.x.x mail server.

I've sent email to the postmaster@..., and asked our cox.net subscribers to do the same. Are there other steps I can or should take to get this resolved asap?

Thanks!? for any help or comments.

Best regards,
-Dave Shantz

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:55 PM, Norman Pierson wrote:

As a paid group, I'd appreciate a way to have my membership get on the website easier

Seeing you have put it that way, can you explain exactly what about the current system is not easy?

As Barb M said in a posting "...I explain that the "login link" option is only a temporary login and urge them all to just set up a permanent password like they have to do for almost everything else on the internet (bank accounts, merchant accounts, etc.). Since we moved to GIO, I haven't had a single member complain about this..." The implication underlying compaints about "difficulties" in using the web UI, or having to log in every 30 days is that those having these difficulties don't use the internet for anything else; apart from the broad examples of bank accounts & merchant accounts it would seem that there is a large cohort of people for whom ebay and Amazon are utterly foreign territory that is never visited for fear of the dragons that abound.

If people are capable of sending and receiving emails on group business then they are perfectly capable of setting up a permanent log in to speed up access every 30 days, unless of course they are allowed to develop the mindset of not being able to do it because some others assure them it is too troublesome.?

I do not think it is unreasonable for there to be an expectation of an adequate level of understanding amongst the members of various groups. As Owners & Moderators we should accept that we must take the time and trouble to find out as much as we reasonably can about the workings of Groups.io so that we can offer some help to our members on those occasions when they really cannot sort it out for themselves.

I don't know, but strongly suspect, that Mark designed the overall operating system on the basis that there would be sufficient understanding on the part of Owners, Moderators, and Members to be able to use Groups.io effectively. He cannot, IMHO, be expected to deskill it completely; it simply should not be necessary.

As it happens the GMF wiki has a better section on the subject of log - ins and related topics than the official Groups.io help section does. (Follow the link and scroll down the page a bit). There is nothing to stop a group owner or moderator copying it, (or the relevant part of it) to members who wish to set a permanent password or who wish an explanation of how the 30 day rule operates. There is nothing to prevent moderators copying it into their own wiki sections, although until your members have their web UI access sorted out they will not be able to read it! (I cannot recall if the GMF wiki is publicly accessible or not; if it is then members can be simply sent a link to it.) The GMF exists to provide "mutual aid" after all.

Chris

Though I hate to add to this lengthy conversation, I have to confess to being totally baffled by it. Groups.IO will work just like Yahoo did if you create a password at the beginning, as Yahoo *required* you to do. To me, the login link is an "extra" option for those who don't want a permanent password for some reason. You don't have to use it. I fail to grasp the emotional significance of having a choice.

Yes, I am used to having to hold new users' hands as they walk through the startup. But I explain that the "login link" option is only a temporary login and urge them all to just set up a permanent password like they have to do for almost everything else on the internet (bank accounts, merchant accounts, etc.). Since we moved to GIO, I haven't had a single member complain about this. Guess we're just lucky?

Barb

Another update.? 9454 visible groups, member ID 3,338,635 joined yesterday on one of the groups.? I suspect the actual number of groups is around 25,000 or more based on Lena's detective work, /g/GroupManagersForum/message/6220 when the actual groups were about 3 times the visible groups.

Looks like we forgot to celebrate the 4th birthday of the site.? It doesn't seem like it's been that long, but maybe that's because it runs so smoothly. ;>)

Duane
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WOW!! everything I thought, you put into words!! Thanks Jim. Maybe someone who can make the change will be listening? I do know that as a group owner, I get tired of hearing about the problem.
Ellen