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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Right now, it is the middle of the official message, neither before nor after it.

But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.

-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 12:47?PM Greg D <ko6th.greg@...> wrote:
What I think would help is if the added message would appear above the default text, not under it.? With our small-screen, short-attention-span environment, the first impression is "What is this stuff.? Swipe to trash...".? Putting our introduction first should solve that.

Greg


Bruce Bowman wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message.
It states it quite clearly to me.

As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.
In order to even have a chance at a change, you'd have to request it on the since this is a peer-to-peer group not monitored by Groups.io management.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I already said that I included all the information (as far?as I know) in my own message, which I expected would replace the officialese. There is nothing I saw in the documentation?that said that the procedure I followed would not work in the obvious way.

The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message. As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.

And no, the Officialese does not have to be included at all. "Officialese" is a style of expression. What has to be included are certain?legal requirements which I stated fully (as far as I can see) in my own way.

You are quite right that I referred to the Welcome message in my original email. But I followed the instructions for creating my own Direct Add message, and again, there is nothing in those instructions to indicate that this procedure would not replace the existing Direct Add message.

I have already (above and earlier) suggested an improvement which would allow a full replacement to take place; namely, by concisely stating the bare minimum requirements concisely in a required?footer.

-P.


On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:41?AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese
Based on most interpretations of worldwide law, the "officialese" has to come first so folks can easily leave if they want.? Of course, spammers don't pay any attention to minor things like laws.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

What I think would help is if the added message would appear above the default text, not under it.? With our small-screen, short-attention-span environment, the first impression is "What is this stuff.? Swipe to trash...".? Putting our introduction first should solve that.

Greg


Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

My group is not a discussion group. I have my group set to an announcement group with all new postings by me only and all responses to my postings to me only. This is appropriate for this situation. I have stated those things quite explicitly in my message.

I have been a member?of a number of discussion groups (yahoo, google, and ) over the years. I even wrote software to run such a group back in the?1980s. I'm an active member of a discussion group now and I like the way it works.?

A few people whom I have?added who have welcomed the?anouncements sent from my own email via bcc have actually been so turned off by the officialese Welcome and other messages that they have unsubscribed. In addition, several others have expressed their distress directly and I've had to soothe their concerns.

Though I appreciate your remarks, what you are suggesting is the opposite of what I am trying to do!

-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:31?AM KATHLEEN DESMAISONS <radiantkd@...> wrote:
Peter,
I have another suggestion for you. I think it might be a good idea to explain to your group what a list serve is and how it works. Many people ?who are unfamiliar with the ¡°every email goes to everyone process are horrified by the idea at first. If you explain that everyone learns from listening, they can get excited. Also if you take the time to explain logistics to new people they may be happier?
hope this helps
Kathleen

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese
Based on most interpretations of worldwide law, the "officialese" has to come first so folks can easily leave if they want.? Of course, spammers don't pay any attention to minor things like laws.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome
You're confusing two notices, Welcome and Direct Add.? Welcome is sent when someone joins your group on their own or you add them, Direct Add is only used when you add them.? There is a default Welcome created when you create a group, but can be modified, including deleting, to suit you.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I might add that this entire problem could be finessed by concisely?adding the required information in a footer, rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese.
?
-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:17?AM Peter S. Shenkin <shenkin@...> wrote:

I did include the information you refer?to in my own Direct Add massage.

I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome, and was told in a response to my posting that I could replace the boilerplate welcome with my own message, as GMF has done. I followed the link that was given to replace the boilerplate mention. There is no mention in the help documentation that this procedure would, to put it bluntly, not work.
?
Is there no workaround? How did GMF manage to replace the boilerplate welcome?
?
-P.?

[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I did include the information you refer?to in my own Direct Add massage.

I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome, and was told in a response to my posting that I could replace the boilerplate welcome with my own message, as GMF has done. I followed the link that was given to replace the boilerplate mention. There is no mention in the help documentation that this procedure would, to put it bluntly, not work.

Is there no workaround? How did GMF manage to replace the boilerplate welcome?

-P.?

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 8:33?AM Bruce Bowman <bowman46118@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Peter,
I have another suggestion for you. I think it might be a good idea to explain to your group what a list serve is and how it works. Many people ?who are unfamiliar with the ¡°every email goes to everyone process are horrified by the idea at first. If you explain that everyone learns from listening, they can get excited. Also if you take the time to explain logistics to new people they may be happier?
hope this helps
Kathleen
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Just thought of that, it may had been the browser's autocomplete feature messing this up somehow, I had this happen a few times in other sites where I thought I had cleared the field using backspace only for the same value to reappear.

In any case, all's well that ends well!

Cheers,
Christos


On 2023-06-12 18:02, Peter S. Shenkin via groups.io wrote:

Hi,?

I had stated that when I empty out the Subject Tag field and press Update Group, the default tag reappears. Indeed, as several suggested, I must have been doing something wrong, because when I tried it again just now, that procedure did the Tag, which was the desired result.?

I'm reporting this just for closure.?

-P.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Hi,?

I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?

When I look at the Direct Add message I created in Admin > Settings > Member Notices > Direct Add, only the italicized part appears. But when I go to actually do a Direct Add, the message that is shown is the full text shown below.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add.

How can I make that happen?

Thanks,
-P.

Hello [Name],

You have been added by the Groups.io Team to?Peter Shenkin Gigs.

You can visit your group, start reading messages and posting them here:?/g/peter-shenkin-gigs.

If it's your first time logging in or you have forgotten your password, please use the "email me a link to login" button.

The email for this group is: [email protected].

But most importantly, please add this email address to your safe sender list in your email client's contacts. If you find emails from this group landing in spam, promo, or social folders, please move those emails to your primary inbox so that you can train your email client to put them directly in your inbox.

The Group moderators have included the following important message:

Hi,

This is Peter Shenkin.

I have added you to the email notification list for my upcoming gigs. If you don't care to receive such notifications, just send an email to:?[email protected]. It can be an empty email. I promise not to be insulted if you unsubscribe.

I use this list to announce my forthcoming gigs. Any response you make to a message will go only to me. Also, I send announcements from the address "shenkin+music@...". if you wish to stay on the list, you should check occasionally for messages from that address in your spam folder and declare them "not spam", or move them to your inbox. You can also add that address to your address book, perhaps as an additional email address for me in your contacts. But many of you won't have to do that.

Assuming you'd like to remain on the list, you can visit the group archive to see what you missed by going to the url:?/g/peter-shenkin-gigs.

You have control over how you'd like to receive announcements. You can change your settings at the site:?/g/peter-shenkin-gigs/editsub. For example, you can opt to receive: all messages in individual emails, collections of messages in a digest, a daily summary, or only special notices. Since I don't expect a huge amount of traffic on this list, I suspect that the default of individual emails will work well for most folks. You can also turn off email notifications while remaining a group member and turn them back on again later.

The reason I adopted the rubric is because it makes an archive available to users and also provides a simple "unsubscribe" feature. And the handling of the membership list is done automatically. My previous method of copying and pasting a long list of users into the bcc: field of a personal outgoing email for each notification was time-consuming and error-prone.?

I have tried to make emails from this list resemble, as closely as possible, the ones I used to send personally. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to write me at "shenkin+music@...".

Best,

-P.

?

If this was a mistake, please click on the following link and you will be immediately removed:

Unsubscribe

The Groups.io Team

Customize Message

Formats?


On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 6:04?PM Peter S. Shenkin via <shenkin=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,?

I had stated that when I empty out the Subject Tag field and press Update Group, the default tag reappears. Indeed, as several suggested, I must have been doing something wrong, because when I tried it again just now, that procedure did the Tag, which was the desired result.?

I'm reporting this just for closure.?

-P.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:20?PM Peter S. Shenkin via <shenkin=[email protected]> wrote:
I recently started a group ([email protected]) to send announcements about my gigs to interested parties. It's a "premium" group to which I've added a bunch of my friends. Several have?opted out because the canned welcome notice and a few other things make?the announcement group?look and sound so much like some kind of social-media or formal work-related site. I've been at pains to explain to some of my friends that neither the case, but I'd not have had to do this if the welcome message and other features could have been personalized.?

The way I had been sending notices out was to simply send them from my personal email, adding the long list of recipients to the bcc: field each time. This is laborious and error prone, so I liked the idea of because of easy unsubscription and maintenance. Based on changes that Mark was able to make (see my recent postings to the beta group), I now have my group behaving the same way as my emails in most or all essentials; viz.:
  • Only moderators and owners can post new topics.
  • Regular users can respond to posted topics.
  • Responses made to posted topics go directly to the author of the post.
So what's missing? The personal touch!
  • Custom welcome message. I see that GMF has one, but I didn't see any way I could create my own. Is there a way I can do this for?my?group?
    • The language in the canned Welcome message is offputting for a group such as mine. Language like "You have been added by the?Groups.io?Team to?Peter Shenkin Gigs."?has the air of officialese, especially since approximately nobody who gets the welcome based on my "direct adds" is likely to have ever heard of , and as soon as they read it they think it is spam.
    • I would instead replace the whole message with something that I have written myself, as myself, using language like "I have added you to this mailing list thinking you might be interested", and so on. After all, it's really I, not , who was responsible for adding the user.
  • Be able to get rid of the tag. For my group, it?is totally unneeded. My group already sends out email as from "Peter Shenkin Music", so the tag is redundant.?
    • I tried setting the tag to an empty field in Settings, but this just restored?the default [peter-shenkin-gigs] tag. I replaced it with "Peter Shenkin Music: ", which is more user friendly, but still redundant, because that information is already in the From: of the email, which is immediately?visible to the user.
    • I've looked at what other musicians do in their gig announcements. None of them include a tag in the Subject:. All of them have sufficient identification in the From: address to avoid confusion.
    • This one could be solved by simply?allowing an empty tag field to do what it says: eliminate the tag!?
None of the suggestions I am making would be appropriate for all groups; I am a member of a group where I find the tag inoffensive, but that group is a discussion group and people understand from the start that some 3rd-party infrastructure is involved.


I would like to make my group look and feel as personal as the emails I used to send out, and IMO, there ought to be a way to do that.

If anyone has workarounds for replacing the entire Welcome message with a personalized one or for eliminating the tag, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you,
-P.?
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Hi,?

I had stated that when I empty out the Subject Tag field and press Update Group, the default tag reappears. Indeed, as several suggested, I must have been doing something wrong, because when I tried it again just now, that procedure did the Tag, which was the desired result.?

I'm reporting this just for closure.?

-P.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:20?PM Peter S. Shenkin via <shenkin=[email protected]> wrote:
I recently started a group ([email protected]) to send announcements about my gigs to interested parties. It's a "premium" group to which I've added a bunch of my friends. Several have?opted out because the canned welcome notice and a few other things make?the announcement group?look and sound so much like some kind of social-media or formal work-related site. I've been at pains to explain to some of my friends that neither the case, but I'd not have had to do this if the welcome message and other features could have been personalized.?

The way I had been sending notices out was to simply send them from my personal email, adding the long list of recipients to the bcc: field each time. This is laborious and error prone, so I liked the idea of because of easy unsubscription and maintenance. Based on changes that Mark was able to make (see my recent postings to the beta group), I now have my group behaving the same way as my emails in most or all essentials; viz.:
  • Only moderators and owners can post new topics.
  • Regular users can respond to posted topics.
  • Responses made to posted topics go directly to the author of the post.
So what's missing? The personal touch!
  • Custom welcome message. I see that GMF has one, but I didn't see any way I could create my own. Is there a way I can do this for?my?group?
    • The language in the canned Welcome message is offputting for a group such as mine. Language like "You have been added by the?Groups.io?Team to?Peter Shenkin Gigs."?has the air of officialese, especially since approximately nobody who gets the welcome based on my "direct adds" is likely to have ever heard of , and as soon as they read it they think it is spam.
    • I would instead replace the whole message with something that I have written myself, as myself, using language like "I have added you to this mailing list thinking you might be interested", and so on. After all, it's really I, not , who was responsible for adding the user.
  • Be able to get rid of the tag. For my group, it?is totally unneeded. My group already sends out email as from "Peter Shenkin Music", so the tag is redundant.?
    • I tried setting the tag to an empty field in Settings, but this just restored?the default [peter-shenkin-gigs] tag. I replaced it with "Peter Shenkin Music: ", which is more user friendly, but still redundant, because that information is already in the From: of the email, which is immediately?visible to the user.
    • I've looked at what other musicians do in their gig announcements. None of them include a tag in the Subject:. All of them have sufficient identification in the From: address to avoid confusion.
    • This one could be solved by simply?allowing an empty tag field to do what it says: eliminate the tag!?
None of the suggestions I am making would be appropriate for all groups; I am a member of a group where I find the tag inoffensive, but that group is a discussion group and people understand from the start that some 3rd-party infrastructure is involved.


I would like to make my group look and feel as personal as the emails I used to send out, and IMO, there ought to be a way to do that.

If anyone has workarounds for replacing the entire Welcome message with a personalized one or for eliminating the tag, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you,
-P.?
Re: Show quoted text option

 

I laughed, because I can't get people on my lists TO quote anything, so many replies lack context. Be careful what you wish for!


On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 04:32 AM, SafeTex wrote:

Hello everyone

We're planning to set up an IO group and we would like to know if it is possible to block the "show quoted text option" when members post.

In other groups that I'm subscribed to, I find that it causes previous posts to get copied again and again exponentially, making them impossible to navigate,? and even images get copied, so there is also a maximum storage aspect to all this.

i've looked in the Group Owners manual but cannot find anything to disable this, except in the digest

The digests include the full text of each message, omitting any quotes of previous messages

but we want to limit this in the posts themselves.

Hope this makes sense and thanks in advance for any help



?
Re: Subscription is all messed up. #access

 

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 05:52 PM, jocaan_1 wrote:
For some reason my emails for the computer forum are not being received at jocaan@....? They are instead being misdirected and going to an old email address that I do not use for computer problems most of the time.? I only have been able to write this inquiry because I logged onto this website.? I would like to receive, through email, the computer discussion messages using the username noted for this message.? My username for this email address should not be jocaan_1 but simply jocaan.??Please advise how I can correct this mix-up.??
I am a bit puzzled - so you use different email addresses for different groups?

Well, first of all, since you can get online to this group, go to the top right corner where you will see a username. Change your email address there. Be sure to scroll down and save. Then choose preferences from the same location. Change your user name if you wish. Again save.

See?/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/understanding-groups-io-accounts/setting-account-preferences-and-viewing-account-information?single=true

You might check out this page in GMF wiki -?/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/12871

You can check in Subscription - menu on the left. Look at the Email Delivery History. And you can look at your Group Profile.

I am unsure if you own any groups. If you do, be cautious especially if you are the only owner. I am being cryptic - and a worrywart probably!

Frances
?
--
Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

?
Subscription is all messed up. #access

jocaan_1
 

For some reason my emails for the computer forum are not being received at jocaan@....? They are instead being misdirected and going to an old email address that I do not use for computer problems most of the time.? I only have been able to write this inquiry because I logged onto this website.? I would like to receive, through email, the computer discussion messages using the username noted for this message.? My username for this email address should not be jocaan_1 but simply jocaan.??
Please advise how I can correct this mix-up.??
Frank C.??
Re: Show quoted text option

 

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 04:44 PM, ro-esp wrote:
It isn't, because quote often is necessary to know what the message is about. However, you can have a group-rule that top-posting/TOFU is not allowed. This used to be established netiquette

I don't mind TOFU if used as by me in this response.
I also like TOFU in my salads ???

My thanks to Ro-esp and Duane for your help
Re: Undelivered mail to Yahoo, AOL and Verizon email address #email

 

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 03:28 PM, Mark Hermsmeier wrote:
I'm not sure what to look for.
?
You need the information from a bounced message to continue troubleshooting.? You won't have access to the header, but there will be more info than "554 error: 'Message not accepted for policy reasons.'", usually a link to the page that covers the error.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Undelivered mail to Yahoo, AOL and Verizon email address #email

 

Here is the raw data?of a message sent to a gmail account but was undelivered to a yahoo account.??.? I'm assuming it would be identical to the message blocked by Yahoo.? I'm not sure what to look for.

Mark







On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 03:53:55 PM EDT, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:


On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 02:28 PM, Mark Hermsmeier wrote:
problem of undelivered mail to Yahoo, AOL and Verizon email addresses
For all intents and purposes, they're the same company, so will likely handle messages the same.? Without a complete header of a bounced message, replies will be mostly guessing.? It should give some specific information that could help figure things out.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

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