On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 10:06 AM, Art Kocsis wrote:

(And still be stuck with automatic payment if that had been setup?)

Won't happen.? A person that is no longer a member of a group cannot be the payor.

I propose a new category for group permissions: Founder.

This has been gone over multiple times from various angles.? Nothing has been done, so I doubt that it's a high priority, if it even exists on the TODO list.

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur (although at this point that would be quite rare). Greg D outlined one such possibility.

Hasn't happened that I know of.? Mark has all sorts of interlocks to prevent the last owner from being removed.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 11:10 AM, Arno Martens wrote:

Problem
I was the ONLY owner in one group and, since the notification goes to the
registered owner (albeit to a non existing address), I cannot log in any longer.

Is this a new problem? Happening now?

Frances


?
--
Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

?

Background.
Changed ISP, added new eMail address in one group, made myself the owner and
deleted the old address.
Tried to do the same with a second group and found out that all my other groups
disappeared. I was not aware that the address is being changed in ALL groups if
a change was made in ONE group.

Problem
I was the ONLY owner in one group and, since the notification goes to the
registered owner (albeit to a non existing address), I cannot log in any longer.

I would appreciate any advice about a possibility to rectify that.

Arno

On 08-06-2023 16:51, Jim Allen wrote:

I don't know what else to do but get assistance. I will have to wait for it I guess.

Not to be snarky but you could try to explicitly and completely answer the questions posed by people trying to help you. Such as:

? Are there other owners or moderators?
? Can you log onto Groups.io?
? What are the details of the SPAM removal message(s)?
? What can you do and not do with your group?
? Other questions that have been asked or other useful info

Art

On 08-06-2023 09:40, Jim Allen wrote:

I woke up this morning and am no longer the owner. I had to different emails as such both have been deleted. Why? I want my group back.

My immediate thought was that a rogue co-owner had co-opted the group and had locked the OP out. While this may or may not be the actual case, the possibility exists.

Group ownership has been discussed (and beaten to death?), here and in the beta group.
Some changes were made but, at least for me, not satisfactorily. Orphaned groups continue to pop up - not all due to laziness, procrastination or ignorance of the owners. I suspect many owners are reticent to create co-owners just for this very reason - there is nothing to prevent one owner from locking another owner out and stealing or destroying the group.

In this day and age of internet nasties, nefarious forum attacks/activities may not be at the top of the list but they do exist. These forums, by definition, span the globe and most members/owners have never met face to face. So for a group founder who has nurtured his baby into a viable community and is needing to have the safety of a co-owner, who can he trust? How can he assure that someone he promotes to co-ownership doesn't steal his group? (And still be stuck with automatic payment if that had been setup?) With the current system, he can't. I suspect that that is the main reason a significant number of groups do not have a co-owner and may become orphan groups (with more to come in the future).

I propose a new category for group permissions: Founder.

A founder would have identical rights and permissions as a regular group owner but with these differences:

? There can be only one founder per group
? Founder status can only be removed or transferred to another by a founder
? Founder status is automatically conferred onto the creator of a new group
? The existence of a founder is not required for a group

That should ensure that a group Founder would never be unwillingly locked out of a group he founded. It, hopefully, would also increase the compliance with creating co-owners and decrease orphaned groups. This could be implemented without upsetting the status quo of permissions and ownerships.

To get started, owners of existing groups with a single owner could promote themselves to founder status. For existing groups with a single RL owner but with multiple "owner" addresses, the owner could temporarily demote all "owners" but one in order to establish "Foundership" status. For existing groups with multiple RL owners, a "Founder" is probably not necessary nor desired. To change the address of a Founder, he could create a new regular owner and then transfer "Foundership" status to that address.

Comments?

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur (although at this point that would be quite rare). Greg D outlined one such possibility.

Art

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 09:39 AM, Sharon Allen wrote:

It's unfortunate because then they're showing as new members when they've been with me for 19 years.

After they get the 'new' address, they can change email addresses in their account so that they maintain their previous information.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 11:56 PM, Ken Schweizer wrote:

Are we having a Google issue or has my Gmail account having issues?

Two days ago, I had a bunch of mail held up (by Gmail), including all of groups.io's daily digests. They showed up 12 hours later...not sure if it's related.

Regards,
Bruce

---

Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 07:44 PM, coprosowner wrote:

I take it there's no fix and this will be a permanent thing to work around.

I just checked the logs for several groups.? me, mac, and icloud are only intermittently bouncing since July 18, but no more than any other domains.? I believe Mark's fix has resolved the majority of the problems, so it's a matter of getting those bouncing members to unbounce themselves.? There was even one member with a gmail address that was bouncing, which is unusual, but turned out to be over quota on their mailbox.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 10:56 PM, Ken Schweizer wrote:

Are we having a Google issue or has my Gmail account having issues?

It's your gmail account.? The "2.0.0 OK" means that gmail accepted the email from Groups.io.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

I did not Christos but I will.

Thank you for the guidance.
--
---

CoProS Owner
coprosowner@...

开云体育

I have a second Groups.IO account set up using my Gmail account and haven't received a Groups.IO message in some time. I checked Mail Delivery History and I should have received one today as the response was

Delivered

7:40pm

Response

2.0.0 OK 1691368803 h8-20020a170902ac8800b001b02e8d8976si4991345plr.300 - gsmtp

?

The last unsuccessful response was

07/05/21

Response

gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com: dial tcp4: address gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com: no suitable address found

I see a bounce for this address on 12/15/20 but nothing since

I don't see any notifications in my Gmail account about issues.

Are we having a Google issue or has my Gmail account having issues?

Thanks,

Ken S

?

Frances . . .

On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 18:57:25 -0700, "Frances" <frances@...> wrote:

Ken, Duane suggested that he sign in with his second account. Both would not be removed.

Jim still has not told us whether there was a third, fourth, or even more
owners. If there were, then one of them deleted him IF he can't log in with
either of his admin accounts. If he can log in with his other admin account, he
should be able to rectify the situation himself.

We can't do much of anything for him until we know if he can log in with his
other admin account and if his group had more than 2 owners (him being the 2).


Donald KX8K



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

Jim . . .

On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 09:40:05 -0700, "Jim Allen" <jimp72@...> wrote:

I woke up this morning and am no longer the owner. I had to different emails as such both have been deleted.

I don't think you answered the question about whether your group had a third
owner (or even more) or not???


Donald



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

开云体育

Playing software engineer...?

Wonder if there's a race condition here?? Both of the owner's email accounts got a message at about the same time, each rejecting it as Spam.? Two different Groups.io administrative threads started working on the Spam removal receipts in parallel, each checking whether their email was the last owner, and each (seeing the other was still there) allowing the removal?? When each thread ends, their owner is gone; having two threads in parallel removed both.?

Just a thought...? no idea if this is how it actually works.

Greg

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 09:55 PM, Ken N wrote:

So, he has no alternate owner to approve his reinstatement. At the start, I thought rejoining was the easy route, but needing an owner approval makes that impossible. I’m surprised the system allows a group to be left without ANY owner.

Ken, Duane suggested that he sign in with his second account. Both would not be removed.?
As Duane also wrote: ?"If those were the only 2 owners, then both of them would not have been removed. ?Groups.io will never remove the last owner. ?Have you logged in with both email addresses?"

Duane,

Jim already said:

On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Jim Allen <jimp72@...> wrote:

I had two separate email accounts set up for just this reason and it looks like both are gone!!!!

Jim

So, he has no alternate owner to approve his reinstatement. At the start, I thought rejoining was the easy route, but needing an owner approval makes that impossible. I’m surprised the system allows a group to be left without ANY owner.

Ken N
Oxnard, CA

On 2023-08-06 20:36, coprosowner via groups.io wrote:

A few of the 43 who did get the bounce probe told us it was in their junk folder.

Did you make sure to tell them to manually mark those as not-spam and move them to the inbox (if not done automatically)?? They need to do that otherwise other groups.io messages/notifications will end up there as well.? They may have to monitor their junk folder once a week and keep doign this, hopefully the spam filter will be eventually trained.? Whitelisting groups.io can also help with some mail services.

Cheers,
Christos

Bruce,

A few of the 43 who did get the bounce probe told us it was in their junk folder.? They acted on the email and were un-bounced.

If I appear to be obsessing it's only because like Don, this has happened in the past and has only been a few members.? No big deal. The only members involved in this recent bounce probe all have the same domain which to me is concerning since nothing has changed.? The members who have me.com, mac.com or icloud.com continue to be bounced.

I take it there's no fix and this will be a permanent thing to work around.

Sincerely,
--
---

CoProS Owner
coprosowner@...