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On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 07:12 AM, Jim Wilson wrote:

Separately, I think the short answer may be to simply add GIO to the DNS TXT entry for SPF on your domain by inserting "include:groups.io" before your "~all" or "-all" statement.

Giving this a try. However after discovering that there is apparently no A or CNAME record pointing to the groups.io sending IP address, and after reviewing the groups.io SPF record, I decided to go with the IP4 syntax:

"v=spf1 include:spf.protection.outlook.com ip4:66.175.222.12 -all"

tommy0421,

I thought I had replied to this but apparently I have not.

You did: /g/GroupManagersForum/message/33139

... it was the en-dash character. That is a dash preceded by a space
and followed by a space.

As Sharon alluded, spaces do not an en-dash make.

In the email message hyphen, en-dash, em-dash, and other horizontal line shaped characters, are all represented by different character codes (code points, in Unicode parlance). They may look alike on your screen, but they are not the same to a program parsing the message content.

Where the confusion comes in is that some document-processing applications, and MS-Word in particular, will auto-convert come combinations of keystrokes into alternate characters. That's a "convenience" feature because keyboards standardized around a relatively limited typewriter-based set of keys, but document typography commonly uses many more characters ("marks") than there are keys on a keyboard.

But the image also failed to display when posted to Shal's test group
even with the spaces before and after the dash deleted but the dash
still there. (Technically creating a hyphen, I think?)

Nope. I'm not sure what program you were using when deleting the spaces, but that wouldn't normally change the identity of the character between them.

But the dash was the problem. Lesson being, DO NOT use dashes when
naming image files.

Not typographic dashes, but hyphens are innocent.

The other lesson is: DO report this bug on beta, maybe Mark can fix the parsing to handle such cases. That could result in the already posted messages displaying properly.

Shal


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Shal,

Thanks for trying to explain that and provide history.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 03:07 PM, Shal Farley wrote [emphasis mine]:

Facing the same issue Groups.io rewrites the outbound From header (in a more sensible way), but only when the posting member's domain has a DMARC p=reject policy. Many services do not do that (including Gmail) so you'll see unmodified From addresses from many members (including me).
/helpcenter/faq/1/group-member-faq/q-why-are-some-people-s-email

That's the first time I've heard that groups.io header rewriting only starts when I set p=reject. Comparing email headers from your message and mine, both say "via groups.io" and both follow the form "username=domain<at>groups.io". In fact, given that, I don't understand why the SPF and DKIM are unaligned, since all domains reference groups.io.

The Authentication=Results header is perhaps telling--it includes both groups.io and my domain. It's like it is somehow extracting both domains from the FROM line. And then it's only a "bestguesspass":

Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 66.175.222.12)
?smtp.mailfrom=groups.io; mydomain.com; dkim=pass (signature was verified)
?header.d=groups.io;mydomain.com; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none
?header.from=groups.io;compauth=pass reason=109

As for the huge uptick in spoofing since posting here, it occurs to me that savvy scammers would subscribe to this forum as a way to harvest email addresses from everyone who posts. Sigh. Further reason to move to p=reject!

I guess I will try modifying my SPF record to allow groups.io as a sender and see if that lets DMARC pass.

Mark

Chuck,

I just sent him a Bounce Probe then checked his Email Delivery
History.
The bounce probe and previous emails all say:
<ip address>: dial tcp4 <ip address>:25: i/o timeout

Is the IP address in the above Groups.io's outbound server, 66.175.222.12? If so it would seem that the receiving service is attempting to access Groups.io's SMTP server (port :25) and failing.

That's not a behavior normally seen with Gmail addresses. If this member is truly subscribed with a gmail.com address, and not some look-alike (or some primary domain handled by Gmail) then I'm not sure how this could happen.

I'm tempted to just delete him then re-Direct Add him in but thought
I'd check here first.

I don't think that's likely to help, unless it incidentally corrects an error in the member's subscribed email address.

Shal


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Mark,

Okay with the help of the raw reports and the MxToolbox visualizer, I
have a new insight: SPF and DKIM are _authenticating_ correctly, but
they are not _aligned_ and thus fail DMARC.

Right.

The key purpose of DMARC is to flag "spoofed" messages - ones where the domain of the header From: field does not match the domain of the actual sending server. The intent is to be able to automatically reject those scam emails that claim to be from your bank, USPS, or UPS, or other trusted businesses from which you may expect to receive messages.

Short form:

Don't use DMARC (specifically p=reject) with an email domain from which you intend to use any email list or forwarding service.

Long form:

DMARC does not work well with public mailbox domains (yahoo.com, aol.com, etc.) because mailbox users frequently also use email lists, email groups, and other services which legitimately pass along messages from mailbox users. The decision by Yahoo Mail, and shortly thereafter AOL mail, to implement DMARC p=reject on behalf of their mailbox users was highly controversial at the time, as it broke the delivery from most of the traditional email forwarding services used by those mailbox customers.

Yahoo side-stepped the problem with regard to Yahoo Groups versus Yahoo Mail by including Yahoo Group's outbound servers in the DNS records for Yahoo Mail. But when AOL followed suit with p=reject there was a paroxysm in Yahoo Groups when suddenly messages posted by AOL users were being rejected by users of other email services, causing the /receiving/ members to be put on "bouncing" status. A similar problem happened with more traditional email lists, with many old-school list services automatically unsubscribing the /receiving/ member because they had rejected a list message. Oops. Some email list managers reacted by banning users with AOL and Yahoo mail domains, and ultimately any p=reject domain.

Those who believe that DMARC is a good thing for all email, including mailbox services, claim that email email list and forwarding services should never have been passing the poster's From address through unmodified. They make that claim despite precedent going back as far as internet email has existed.

In response to the AOL debacle Yahoo Groups changed their email handling to rewrite all From addresses so that the outbound header From would now have the yahoogroups.com domain. Thus creating the needed alignment.

Facing the same issue Groups.io rewrites the outbound From header (in a more sensible way), but only when the posting member's domain has a DMARC p=reject policy. Many services do not do that (including Gmail) so you'll see unmodified From addresses from many members (including me).
/helpcenter/faq/1/group-member-faq/q-why-are-some-people-s-email

By the way, some people conflate "spoofed" (aka "forged From") messages with spam messages, but the two ideas are distinct. The confusion comes about because forging a legit header From address is a technique that email viruses, spambots, and all manner of scammers have often used in an attempt to fool people into opening and acting on their messages.

What I don't get is why I suddenly have _thousands_ of emails going
out "from" my domain that would fail: ...
* Perhaps the biggest concern are the 1665 emails purportedly from my
domain sent yesterday from two adjacent IP addresses in Moldava.
That looks like a determined effort to spoof my domain.

That seems likely. The scammers never give up trying.

I don't know if that's related to groups.io, but the timing overlaps.
(Third attachment) Unfortunately, I do not seem to have the raw report
for these failures.

It might be.

Or it might be from any other usage of your domain which might be collected by scammer's bots. Such as having it posted as contact info on a web site.

Shal


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An oddity here. When I viewed the failed image sent to my group it was on the webpage and later in the daily digest I receive. Same thing when I tested the file name on Shal's test group today. I posted from the website, using Add picture to add the original file but with the spaces removed. It didn't display on the web page. In Shal's group I'm in individual email mode so a copy of my message was emailed to me. I had actually forgotten I was getting individual emails from the test group. When I saw there was a copy of the message in my inbox and opened it, the image does seem properly displayed.

Apparently what does not work on a Groups.io webpage may work in the email copy of that message. Of course, it was already pointed out that the difference is code. If I'm remembering correctly, most email programs can read UFT-8. Groups.io webpage apparently can not.

Is that close? :)

tommy0421

This all came about after a member included an image in a message they sent to one of my groups. The message file name included an en dash. They were very disappointed when the image failed to display in their message when posted. But the dash was the problem. Lesson being, DO NOT use dashes when naming image files.

Just to clarify for those who may not know there are three kinds of dashes: hyphen, en dash, and em dash. The hyphen is shortest and can be used in file names.

The en and em dashes cannot. They are special typesetting characters. The en dash joins words that are not hyphenated but are used in a string as adjectives, and the em dash sets off phrases within a sentence.

In many typefaces, it is hard to tell the difference. The en is supposed to be the width of an N, and the em the width of an M but they often are not.

And depending on the settings, in some word processing programs accidently typing two hyphens may produce an em dash that you don’t notice but the computer does.

Sharon
———
Sharon Villines

[email protected]
To subscribe:
[email protected]

Okay with the help of the raw reports and the MxToolbox visualizer, I have a new insight:? SPF and DKIM are _authenticating_ correctly, but they are not _aligned_ and thus fail DMARC. This is consistent across the four samples I analyzed. See first attachment (the report from Google). Here's a description of alignment: https://www.dmarcanalyzer.com/what-is-alignment/.

What I don't get is why I suddenly have _thousands_ of emails going out "from" my domain that would fail:

• Three of the four reports show failures from IP addresses other than Group.io 66.175.222.12.
• In the four days between August 4 and 7, 3273 emails would have failed DMARC. (Second attachment)
• Perhaps the biggest concern are the 1665 emails purportedly from my domain sent yesterday from two adjacent IP addresses in Moldava. That looks like a determined effort to spoof my domain. I don't know if that's related to groups.io, but the timing overlaps. (Third attachment) Unfortunately, I do not seem to have the raw report for these failures.

?Shal Farley wrote: This is kind of an odd theory, and I've not tested it, but the only difference I'm seeing between what does not display right in GMF, and what does in shalstest, is the file name. In particular, the one in GMF included an en-dash character.
======================================================================

I thought I had replied to this but apparently I have not. Shal was right, it was the en-dash character. That is a dash preceded by a space and followed by a space. But the image also failed to display when posted to Shal's test group even with the spaces before and after the dash deleted but the dash still there. (Technically creating a hyphen, I think?)

This all came about after a member included an image in a message they sent to one of my groups. The message file name included an en dash. They were very disappointed when the image failed to display in their message when posted. But the dash was the problem. Lesson being, DO NOT use dashes when naming image files.

tommy0421

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 01:33 PM, Christina Gray wrote:

Will you PLEASE give us a way to disable the Subscribe link on the main page?? I keep getting these requests with nondescript emails with no full name and I have no idea who the hell these people are?

You can also require more information before they join by creating a Pending Subscription notice. Available to any level including free groups.
/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/managing-member-notices/pending-subscription-notice

Also you can take your group out of the Publicly Listed Groups, if you wish.
/search?p=SubsCount,,,20,2,0,0

And fine-tune your group description to discourage people who wouldn't be a match. For example, if it is only for those who live in your neighbourhood, say that. Or use specific software.... etc.

Frances
?
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GMF wiki for help.?Search box at the top of each page.

Check out the?new groups.io Help Center??Use your browser to search or download?the PDF.

Personally I have no such problem so wonder why you do?

Is your group closed to new subscribers?

Does your home page have a description of what your group is about and who can join? (and who cannot)

Is your group restricted and do you have a pending subscriber message ?

In the pending subscriber message you can stipulate there must be a full name and add other qualifying questions

They have 14 days to answer the pending subscriber message or its automatically deleted

Works well for me

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 12:33 PM, Christina Gray wrote:

Will you PLEASE give us a way to disable the Subscribe link on the main page?

There already is.? All you have to do is upgrade to an Enterprise group and you should have complete control over the group's home page content.

BTW, this is a user-to-user group.? No one from GIO monitors it.? If you want to make a suggestion, you'd need to post on the .

Duane
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The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

Will you PLEASE give us a way to disable the Subscribe link on the main page?? I keep getting these requests with nondescript emails with no full name and I have no idea who the hell these people are?

Is this so difficult?

I searched thru the Wiki and Help docs but didn't see anything regarding this weirdity I'm having with one particular member's emails bouncing to his gmail address that I know is good.

I just sent him a Bounce Probe then checked his Email Delivery History.? The bounce probe and previous emails all say:
<ip address>: dial tcp4 <ip address>:25: i/o timeout

I don't see any references to this "i/o timeout" anywhere but these old eyes may have missed it!? As I mentioned above, I have no probs sending/recieving emails to his gmail address.? Any ideas??

I'm tempted to just delete him then re-Direct Add him in but thought I'd check here first.
thanks!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 03:19 AM, Andy Wedge wrote:

We had initially intended to allow the subgroup Mods to add members to their subgroup from the pre-approved main group list but as there's as there is no distinction between the privilege of adding or inviting a member, allowing a Mod to invite someone to a subgroup effectively gives them some control over the main group member list.

I presume you mean that a subgroup Mod can cause someone to be added to the main group that the main group Mod(s) didn't previously know about or approve (and therefore, is beyond the control of the main group Mod(s).? Is that what you meant when you said "gives them [a subgroup Mod] some control over the main group member list"?

Bruce,

Lots of people still have Yahoo Mail accounts because for awhile you
*had* to...in order to subscribe to Yahoo Groups.

That actually was never true, for email-only use of Y!Groups. Their -subscribe email command will create a subscription to a group without a need to visit any part of Yahoo's site. Just reply to the confirmation request.

The part that's true is in regards to accessing a group's web pages as a logged in member. For that you've always needed a Yahoo account, and that has (almost) always automatically created a Yahoo Mail address for you. But you still didn't need to use that address for anything: even with a web-access Y!Groups membership you can have your choice of delivery email address.

But I think Duane was talking about Yahoo Groups and Google Groups
here, not Yahoo and Google as email providers. Those two listservs (or
whatever you want to call them) were "too big to fail," and can thus
better afford to ignore incoming FBL notifications.

In the case of Y!Groups I think the situation is more that FBLs are a relatively new innovation by email service providers, and Y!Groups effectively ceased development of email-related features in around 2010. It isn't so much that they can afford to ignore FBLs, its that they've been ignoring everything.

Yes, there was the calendar redesign of 2012, and the ill-fated "neo" web interface redesign in 2013. But core email processing for Y!Groups hasn't changed in a *very* long (internet) time.

Yahoo Group members do pay a price for this. Non-delivery of Y!Group messages has always been a frequent complaint. It got so bad that the Yahoo Groups team had to publicly post the IP addresses of its servers in hopes that they could convince email service providers to whitelist them.


I'm pretty sure that if the "good old" Y!Groups team were still in place, they'd be working with FBLs too.

Shal


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Have you used the owners' manual to review the correct process?

It's covered at?/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/inviting-people-to-join-a-group/overview?single=true

When in doubt, first review the Owners or the Members' manuals, use ctl & F to search after opening help at:?/helpcenter


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Bob Bellizzi

@Mark Berry, thanks for the link to Valimail but it wants me to sign up so I will consider doing that soon.

FYI, the DMARC reports only specify?how?a message or set of messages pass or fail (DMARC, DKIM or SPF) as well as originating server IP but provide no message details beyond that. This may be why Valimail provides no other details. By the way, MxToolBox has an excellent??for the reports you will receive.
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Jim

@Duane - No I haven't notified Mark / support. The only offer to change headers that I've seen on public posts is about Exchange, and that's already being done according to my account page.

@Jim - I'm just using a free Valimail account, so I don't expect them to really diagnose much unless I have proof of a bug in their system. In the meantime, I've updated my DNS to also forward DMARC reports directly to me so I can look at some details.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 08:22 AM, Jill Ingle wrote:

I've followed your instructions but can't find how to make it active.

Jill -- You have to select one each time invitations are sent by pulling down the "Notices" menu below the "Customize Message" editor. There is no "active" checkbox.?

If you'd like the ability to set a default, please say so in my active topic on the beta group ().?

Regards,
Bruce

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