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Re: errors of "error" models

 

Hello again GIN&PEZ

I would like to continuing following your work, but I think you are expecting much mind reading on my part for me to meet that objective. I am able to infer some information from your one port equations and the context of this thread; and I can infer some from the variables used and the general form of several of the equations. As presented however, I am forced to make assumptions that are misleading at best, and incorrect at worst. You need to provide some textual guidance in the form of variable definitions with assignments void of ambiguity, such as the numbers 0 and 1, and the letters O and L. A starting point with a reference baseline set of measurements that are (or will be) required to complete the calculations should be established before the onset of your derivations.

The textual content need not be verbose, but it needs to be clear and unambiguous, precede your equations, and ideally it follows the process regarded as the scientific method.

Is there a message in the timeline listing of the Mathematicians/Philosophers of the Classical and Hellenistic periods; or was this appended to serve as a statement of how you would describe a model of your SOW? :-)

--
73

Gary, N3GO
Re: Brand new user here

Ron Bussiere
 

Here's a 'free' idea that works. Take an old (2 piece) ball point pen and replace the ink tube, with a small diameter piece of wood, sharpened to a point.
Chop stick, wood 'Q tip', (which is what I use), etc.
I have big fingers and this works perfect.
BTW, I always use 'screen protectors' on my VNA, VNA-F, my 7300, 7610, and my new Kenwood TS-890.
I would never recommend a metal stylus of any type.
YMMV and it's your toy.

ron
N4UE
Re: Brand new user here

Bob Albert
 

My 'stylus' is an old metal drafting pencil, the back side, all metal.? It's perfect.
Bob

On Sunday, December 8, 2019, 01:26:30 PM PST, Jim Allyn - N7JA <jim@...> wrote:

On 12/8/19 12:52 PM, Ray, W4BYG wrote:
No I don't have a stylus.? Not quite sure where to find one.

???? The local Dollar Tree has them.? Probably most office supply
stores would have them too.? They are also available on Ebay.
Re: New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

 

Hi Rudi
I insert my comments below

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af reuterr@...
Sendt: 8. december 2019 20:05
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

Hello Kurt,

Thank you very much for your paper How_to_display_delay_shift_for_a_cable_in_NanoVNA_saver.pdf

I tried to follow your advice.

By reviewing all Display Parameters of nanoVNA-saver I brought it to about your style for a better readability, see:
Display settings:
Point size 3 px
Line thickness 3 px
Marker size 14 px
Filled markers Yes
Data point is: At the tip of the marker
Fontsize 11 pt
Opacity Reference color 15% -> 50%

Ok about you settings. Still the contras in the PNG files are very poor a dark background like mine blue is much better

Marker settings:
S11 Group delay - Add

page 2: see my screenshot CH0_RG316-50cm_202_500MHz_Open_Group-delay.png
Unfortunately with each sweep the Group Delay varies very much, between -6 and +8 ps. So, what to take?
The S11 Phase trace was "unwrapped". Group delay is useless for a open dot there is not data to calculate from except noise
<<<<< If you look in my document the phase indicated to -0.1 degree and group delay 24fs and that is still very small values not to trust entirely. See next comment

page 3: your calculation -1.883 ps * 250 MHz * 360 = -169468 page 5: Here for the Offset Delay a number of -167800 was used,
is that the same value?
<<<< You have misunderstood the purpose of this point. First of all you have forgotten to divided by 1e6= 1000000 in my formula which is how to convert a delay to a phaseshift- The -1.883ps leads to -0.169468 degree:
I have made a mistake using a wrong number it should have been -0.98ps which is the fringe C delay for the SMA female adaptor from the female female adaptor terminating the test cable. You calibration is wrong as well as the S11 phase trace has a negative slope with 0.0882 degree at 250MHz as -0.98*250*360/1000000=-0.0882 degree. You will se in my edited document attached it is spot on for my cable. So calibration must be doen with the male kit and offset C is 0.98*20=19.6fF in the calibration settings for NanoVNA-saver.

I loaded the exported OPEN file nanoVNA_RG174-30cm_202_500MHz_Open.s1p
in Zplots, see screen shot Zplots_page9_RG174-30cm.PNG.
Next step was to click to "Add/Sub".
See screen shot Zplots_page10_RG174-30cm.PNG.
Unfortunately the Length = 30932,2 mm, is x100 of the real length of 309 mm.
<<<<Where in the world did you get the figure 30932.2 from ??. You should enter 309mm and fine tune the length until you get a spot in the open position of the Smithchart and also some sensible phase oscillation with tips of the maximums / Minimums on same level.

At this point I gave up, sorry.
---
Another test was the *comparison* of your file "33cm NanoVNA supplied cable open.s1p" from the archive "Cable measurement.zip" with my own 30 cm RG174 coax cable.

In my measurement of a 30 cm RG174 coax cable, see screen shot nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open.png.
I imported your S1P file "33cm NanoVNA supplied cable open.s1p" as a *reference*.
The result is in my screen shot nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open_Ref.png.
For me it looks very much the same.
What is you impression?
<<<They should be similar, but while typing this response I cannot got back and look
Kind regards
Kurt

73, Rudi DL5FA

How_to_display_delay_shift_for_a_cable_in_NanoVNA_saver.pdf
How_to_display_delay_shift_for_a_cable_in_NanoVNA_saver.pdf

Re: New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

 

Hi Rudi,

I loaded to Sim Smith Chart your s1p data file. I see some calibrations and/or nanovna errors. The circle not spiral to centre point simmetrically. I subract 31,22cm RG-174 cable from internal model. I have good result to 150 Mhz (blue dot). See attached picture. Currently not have Excel to try zplots. It is my ultra cheap ultra portable laptop only 1024x600 pixel resulution. Sorry for low resolution attachment.

73,
Lajos

rg174.png

Re: Brand new user here

 

On 12/8/19 12:52 PM, Ray, W4BYG wrote:
No I don't have a stylus.? Not quite sure where to find one.

???? The local Dollar Tree has them.? Probably most office supply stores would have them too.? They are also available on Ebay.
Re: Brand new user here

 

Walgreens has stylus - small rubber on one end, take the cap off and you
have a ball point pen.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 8:52 PM Ray, W4BYG <w4byg@...> wrote:

Clyde,
Thank you. No I don't have a stylus. Not quite sure where to find one.
Ray, W4BYG

On 12/7/2019 10:09 PM, Clyde Spencer wrote:
Have you used a stylus? Fingers are too large for that little screen.
*Clyde K. Spencer*



On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 7:53 PM Ray, W4BYG <w4byg@...> wrote:

Just received my new NanoVNA and beginning to learn how to use it. I
have read the "user guide" but it is not much help with my problems:

After I set the menu settings for display, frequency, etc., and start
trying to use it, I am having trouble moving the markers to where I want
them on the trace.

As I go to touch a marker to move it where I want it, the menu comes up
automatically on the right and the marker doesn't move. I close the menu
and try again with the same result. Repeated attempts will eventually
allow me to move the marker, but it is still problematic.

What am I doing wrong or missing?

Also, is there a setting where I can tell it to boot back up to my last
screen settings, instead of the factory default out to 900 MHz? This
would allow saving the battery when I have to be make extended changes
to an antenna and not have to reprogram everything again.

Additionally: Is there software for use with a Win 7 or Win 10 PC and
for Android?

Your assistance would be appreciated.
Ray, W4BYG







--

*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*
*Just Think*
Re: errors of "error" models

 

Hello again GIN&PEZ



--
73

Gary, N3GO
Re: Brand new user here

 

A small not sharp wooden stick works also.

--
NanoVNA Wiki: /g/nanovna-users/wiki/home
NanoVNA Files: /g/nanovna-users/files
Erik, PD0EK
Re: Brand new user here

 

Bob,
Thank you.? That works!
Ray, W4BYG

On 12/7/2019 10:32 PM, Bob Albert via Groups.Io wrote:
Don't move the marker by touching it.? Use, instead, the multipurpose rocker control at the top.? Rocking it one way or the other will move the marker in use.? To change markers you go to the menu.
On Saturday, December 7, 2019, 04:53:21 PM PST, Ray, W4BYG <w4byg@...> wrote:
Just received my new NanoVNA and beginning to learn how to use it.? I
have read the "user guide" but it is not much help with my problems:

After I set the menu settings for display, frequency, etc., and start
trying to use it, I am having trouble moving the markers to where I want
them on the trace.

As I go to touch a marker to move it where I want it, the menu comes up
automatically on the right and the marker doesn't move. I close the menu
and try again with the same result.? Repeated attempts will eventually
allow me to move the marker, but it is still problematic.

What am I doing wrong or missing?

Also, is there a setting where I can tell it to boot back up to my last
screen settings, instead of the factory default out to 900 MHz?? This
would allow saving the battery when I have to be make extended changes
to an antenna and not have to reprogram everything again.

Additionally: Is there software for use with a Win 7 or Win 10 PC and
for Android?

Your assistance would be appreciated.
Ray, W4BYG
Re: Brand new user here

 

Clyde,
Thank you.? No I don't have a stylus.? Not quite sure where to find one.
Ray, W4BYG

On 12/7/2019 10:09 PM, Clyde Spencer wrote:
Have you used a stylus? Fingers are too large for that little screen.
*Clyde K. Spencer*



On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 7:53 PM Ray, W4BYG <w4byg@...> wrote:

Just received my new NanoVNA and beginning to learn how to use it. I
have read the "user guide" but it is not much help with my problems:

After I set the menu settings for display, frequency, etc., and start
trying to use it, I am having trouble moving the markers to where I want
them on the trace.

As I go to touch a marker to move it where I want it, the menu comes up
automatically on the right and the marker doesn't move. I close the menu
and try again with the same result. Repeated attempts will eventually
allow me to move the marker, but it is still problematic.

What am I doing wrong or missing?

Also, is there a setting where I can tell it to boot back up to my last
screen settings, instead of the factory default out to 900 MHz? This
would allow saving the battery when I have to be make extended changes
to an antenna and not have to reprogram everything again.

Additionally: Is there software for use with a Win 7 or Win 10 PC and
for Android?

Your assistance would be appreciated.
Ray, W4BYG
Re: errors of "error" models

 

#81': update : on the physical expression of two-port s-parameters
#81 - 8 December 2019 - /g/nanovna-users/message/7962

Hello,

We just uploaded a substantially updated improved proof at:



Sincerely,

gin&pez@arg

:81'#
Re: New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

 

Hello Kurt,

Thank you very much for your paper How_to_display_delay_shift_for_a_cable_in_NanoVNA_saver.pdf

I tried to follow your advice.

By reviewing all Display Parameters of nanoVNA-saver I brought it to about your style for a better readability, see:
Display settings:
Point size 3 px
Line thickness 3 px
Marker size 14 px
Filled markers Yes
Data point is: At the tip of the marker
Fontsize 11 pt
Opacity Reference color 15% -> 50%

Marker settings:
S11 Group delay - Add

page 2: see my screenshot CH0_RG316-50cm_202_500MHz_Open_Group-delay.png
Unfortunately with each sweep the Group Delay varies very much,
between -6 and +8 ps. So, what to take?
The S11 Phase trace was "unwrapped".

page 3: your calculation -1.883 ps * 250 MHz * 360 = -169468
page 5: Here for the Offset Delay a number of -167800 was used,
is that the same value?

I loaded the exported OPEN file nanoVNA_RG174-30cm_202_500MHz_Open.s1p
in Zplots, see screen shot Zplots_page9_RG174-30cm.PNG.
Next step was to click to "Add/Sub".
See screen shot Zplots_page10_RG174-30cm.PNG.
Unfortunately the Length = 30932,2 mm, is x100 of the real length of 309 mm.

At this point I gave up, sorry.
---
Another test was the *comparison* of your file "33cm NanoVNA supplied cable open.s1p" from the archive "Cable measurement.zip" with my own 30 cm RG174 coax cable.

In my measurement of a 30 cm RG174 coax cable, see screen shot nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open.png.
I imported your S1P file "33cm NanoVNA supplied cable open.s1p" as a *reference*.
The result is in my screen shot nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open_Ref.png.
For me it looks very much the same.
What is you impression?

73, Rudi DL5FA

CH0_RG316-50cm_202_500MHz_Open_Group-delay.png
nanoVNA_RG173-30cm_202_500MHz_Open.s1p
nanoVNA_RG173-30cm_202_500MHz_Open.s1p
Zplots_page9_RG174-30cm.PNG
Zplots_page10_RG174-30cm.PNG
nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open.png
nanoVNA-saver_RG174-30cm_Open_Ref.png

Re: connector swap

aparent1/kb1gmx
 

First BNC up to 3ghz is a reliable connector, no different from TNC.
Caveat; use good stuff and make sure you do not interchange
50 ohm BNC with 75 ohm BNC, really they are different!

Having used BNC and TNC to 3ghz on PNAs if they make
erratic connection it is time to toss the offending connectors
or adapters it or at least try to clean it! They do get dirty!

The other is as others have said changing the connectors stresses
the case and board to make that change. Use quality adapters.

One last thing SMA, use a torque wrench if your that critical.
Loose is a problem and over-tighten ruins them.

As a generalization If I were to go from SMA to anything it would
be type N as they are fairly robust. However they are large and still
need adapters.

In the end if you are using decent parts (cables and adapters) the
calibration takes it all in and compensates.

-----------------
I do not accept private email due to forum scraping groups.io
Re: Would like to buy NanoVNA #nanovna-matlab

 

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 03:02 AM, Lucio I?LYL wrote:


European customers responded for DHL's import fees
I had to pay as must for import tax, VAT and handling fee as for the nanoVNA itself.
If you are not in a hurry, use china post for shipping to avoid all this extra cost.
--
NanoVNA Wiki: /g/nanovna-users/wiki/home
NanoVNA Files: /g/nanovna-users/files
Erik, PD0EK
Re: Would like to buy NanoVNA #nanovna-matlab

 

@Hugen,
Unfortunately I was in a hurry and ordered on 12.11.2019 before you post this notice.
However something wrong with my shipment. Shipment seems canceled on 28th of Nov and no move in tracking report anymore. Long time passed didn't received anything. A lady in your Alibaba shop is saying nothing wrong and I should wait for that but maybe shipment returned back according to order tracking. Can you help?

2019-11-28 16:55 China (Yurt Disi), Cancel item export



--
Regards,

Erhan, TA1LSX, 73
Re: connector swap

Bob Albert
 

I have been successfully using adapters from SMA to BNC.? Works great.? You calibrate with the adapter in place and readings are accurate.
Replacing the connectors, while possible, makes for a lot of stress on the PC traces and can promote failure.? I wouldn't do it.
Bob

On Sunday, December 8, 2019, 04:25:11 AM PST, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 at 10:56, paul larner <quadzillatech@...> wrote:

seems like its dooable then,imworking on making a milled aluminium case
for it so the mechanical stuff isnt an issue,was more concerned about the
frequency responce,im only going to use it upto 70cms.

Definitely use N, not BNC. Mainly because BNC provides a less repeatable
connection, and for a VNA, you should be seeking the most repeatable
connection possible.

Dave
Re: nanoVNAPartner v0.17

 

Hi,

For those who have a problem on the above-given link,
please try downloading it from here:

Kind regards,

neb
Re: New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

 

Sorry, didn't know that the site was illegal !

Jos

Op 8-12-2019 om 16:58 schreef Dick:

If you have a guilty conscience you can buy a NIB copy of Office 97
over on that auction site for $5 !!

73 es HH, Dick, W1KSZ
________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Larry Rothman <nlroth@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2019 8:32 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

Please be aware that legal use of anything from that site is iffy at best due to copyright laws.
I searched the site for anything regarding original copyright ownership and could not find anything so it is really no better than downloading from a pirate site.
Please be aware.



On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 at 9:08 AM, Jos Stevens<jrs@...> wrote: I think to remember that Zplot runs under Excel 97, so I searched the
web and found a German website where to download .
.

I did not have the time to try it.

This might help.

Jos

Op 8-12-2019 om 14:36 schreef hwalker:
On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 04:49 AM, Larry Rothman wrote:

¡­ A quick search mentions Google sheets and IBM Lotus Symphony and a few others as alternatives...
======================================================================================

Larry,
ZPLOT uses VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) to draw its user interface and also do some underlying calculations. Other than AutoCad I don't know of any other applications that have licensed VBA from Microsoft for use as their scripting language. I suppose the VBA licensing fees are the primary factor

I did get sidetracked looking at the underlying VBA code in ZPLOTS. Some of the mathematical coding is educational for those geeks amongst us, of which I admit I am one.

- Herb
Re: New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

 

If you have a guilty conscience you can buy a NIB copy of Office 97
over on that auction site for $5 !!

73 es HH, Dick, W1KSZ
________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Larry Rothman <nlroth@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2019 8:32 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] New version of NanoVNA-Saver: 0.2.1

Please be aware that legal use of anything from that site is iffy at best due to copyright laws.
I searched the site for anything regarding original copyright ownership and could not find anything so it is really no better than downloading from a pirate site.
Please be aware.



On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 at 9:08 AM, Jos Stevens<jrs@...> wrote: I think to remember that Zplot runs under Excel 97, so I searched the
web and found a German website where to download .
.

I did not have the time to try it.

This might help.

Jos

Op 8-12-2019 om 14:36 schreef hwalker:
On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 04:49 AM, Larry Rothman wrote:

¡­ A quick search mentions Google sheets and IBM Lotus Symphony and a few others as alternatives...
======================================================================================

Larry,
ZPLOT uses VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) to draw its user interface and also do some underlying calculations. Other than AutoCad I don't know of any other applications that have licensed VBA from Microsoft for use as their scripting language. I suppose the VBA licensing fees are the primary factor

I did get sidetracked looking at the underlying VBA code in ZPLOTS. Some of the mathematical coding is educational for those geeks amongst us, of which I admit I am one.

- Herb
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