That worked, thanks.
Mel, K6KBE
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 9:14 AM Kurt Poulsen <kurt@...> wrote: Hi Mel
Please copy from .. Until pdf and paste into your URL in a
browser. Watch out for the inserted >
Then it works
Kind regards
Kurt
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af Mel
Farrer, K6KBE
Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 18:05
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig
Sorry the link does not open???
Mel, K6KBE
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 8:54 AM Kurt Poulsen <kurt@...> wrote:
Hi Ulrich
First of all I give you the link to another document not published but
in small "circles" and it will interest you I am sure
to the Test Chamber and Measurements
above 500MHz.pdf It might be entered in the browser directly as the io
groups messages does no like my notation ?
Regarding the adaptor, to which the male centerpin is engaging, is a
straight forward threaded SMA female female adaptor with a hex nut on
either side of the top plate, with a toothed washer on the top side.
For the male centerpin to find the female center bushing I just press
inserted a small 2mm long section of the Teflon part for a male SMA
adaptor. It has a hole of 1 mm and that is enough guidance for the
male pin to home in on the female bushing. I insert an image of both
sides, and in my case it was a bulkhead adaptor used but it does not matter what you use.
No wear to consider.
Just for the fun of it I show you my mico-chamber Regarding the DC
biasing I have no experience, but I do not see a big problem in that
either. The center pin resistance is very low so not much DC blocking
required to protect the VNWA TX out. The biggest problem is to know
the impedance of the RF isolation between the DC supply and the center
pin to be high enough. I imagine a SMA T adaptor and some sort of
resistive or inductive impedance to block the low impedance of the DC
supply. The impedance of the T adaptor seen from the RF isolation is
removed by the calibration on the output side of the T-adaptor
connected to the test chamber (with no DC current applied). So the
impedance for determining the inductance of the internal ground rod
without the toroid and with toroid is straight forward measurement as
such. How many Amps the SMA adaptors can carry is a matter for studying.
In my last mail I said some nonsense about the spreadsheet, which is
used for determining the rod impedance and that only. How to subtract
the inductance for the measurement with toroid is a matter of some
mathematics I think is covered by already available material else
revert to the matter Kind regards Kurt
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af
UlrichKraft
Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 15:25
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig
Hello Kurt,
that is a wonderful description of what you three did a while go when
measuring the performance of ferrite materials. Very cool stuff and
because I'm just looking in exactly that topic I have a few questions
questions to your fixture. I'm still on a "beginner level" using VNA
for measuring ferrite impedances, so sorry for any stupid questiosn.
When you have inserted the ferrite bead and turning the adjustment
knob it will contact the SMA F connector at some point. What type of
SMA connector did you use? I would imagin that the inner conductor
gets damaged pretty fast after using the fixture a few times? Or is that a "special"
type of SMA with more robust inner-conductor design ?
Do you know if something similar is commercially available?
Secondly, I like to characterize the ferrits with DC-BIAS current from
0 up to 10 Amps.. That changes ferrite impedance and frequency,
depending on saturation of the material.
See
cable-emi-suppression-cores/ For relatively large ferrite cores it
might be easy just adding an additional wire through the inner
dimeter, with a DC-current. That way the
RF- and DC wires are separated.
But for smaller components like wound-beads (e.g. Fair-Rite
2961666671) I need to "inject" the DC current into the signal line of
the VNA. Do you have any experience how to do that best? What kind of
RF-filtering / DC-blocking needs to be build ? How is calibration
performed then? The additional filtering will definitely change the
overall S11 response, but I want to see only the ferrite effect on the
Impedance and not any effect of that filter. The intended frequency
range is up to 500 MHz for #61 material, but ideally for full span of nanovna up to 1 GHz.
|
Re: NanoVNA-Saver 0.1.3 MAC
Ok, I rescan isn¡¯t finding anything, so I will try manual also
Thx
Dana
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 20, 2019, at 14:22, ericm@... wrote:
Hi Dana,
In OSX the nanoVNA is shown as "/dev/cu.usbmodem4001"
Normally rescan will automatically connect. You could try however to manually enter the string above
Eric
|
Re: errors of "error" models
Dr. David Kirkby from Kirkby Microwave Ltd
If you do get in a position to produce a PDF that at least resembles
*¡¯ A scientific paper, with labels on the axes of graphs.
* A draft scientific paper, with labels on the axes of graphs.
* A professional report, with labels on the axes of graphs.
* An interim professional report, with labels on the axes of graphs.
please email me a copy privately. However, temporarily at least, I am going
to mute this topic, so will see no further posts on the topic unless sent
privately.
Dave.
--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100
Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United
Kingdom
|
Re: errors of "error" models
#65 : [TheLeastVNA] Code - Update 20191020 Hello, Allow us, please, to inform you that we just uploaded the new version of our /F/L/O/S/S/: Take into account, please, that with this version The Common User computes the Impedance Z of an unknown load he connects to his [NanoVNA] from the console outputs of PuTTy, as we detailed at: #64 : A further simplification of our [LeastVNA] /g/nanovna-users/message/5351and in an almost obvious analogy with what we instructed at: #59 : UPDATE : [LeastVNA] : version 20191020 /g/nanovna-users/message/5269Sincerely, gin&pez@arg 65#
|
Re: errors of "error" models
GIN & PEZ;
Up to the presentation of your [LeastVNA] formula: G=(g-l)(o-s)/[(g-o)(s-l)-(g-s)(l-o)], and provided in executable form as BBC BASIC source code, I interpret as an alternative calibration algorithm.
As currently being performed in the traditional manner, it requires 3 reference measurements (SOL), which are combined mathematically with the measurements of an unknown (DUT) in order to compute accurately the reflection coefficient of the DUT FACUPOV. It there a comparison to make that will differentiate and otherwise highlight the virtues of using your algorithm?
Your 36 character long formula is misleading and imprecise as presented in, A3 of #62 : On the Most Reasonable Questions with the Most Clear Answers.
It is a compact presentation of 36 typed characters, but the variables are neither defined nor identified as complex. This may be obvious to knowledgeable readers, and those who dissect your source listing.
The NanoVNA outputs its raw results represent the uncorrected measured reflection coefficient in cartesian form. Is this a condition of your BBC BASIC implementation, or is the reader to assume the measurements can be in either rectangular or polar form?
The output of [AnyVNA] is generally understood to be S-Parameters. S11, S22,...Snn, are in fact reflection coefficients. Each of the input variables in your formula are reflection coefficients of the form S11, S22,... Snn, etc.
"No errors" implies absolute accuracy. That's going to be a tough sell.
... better yet... You might be better served if you purge the long list at the end of A3 altogether... It discloses your passion, but the content is confusing and does nothing to support or defend your claims.
My questions and comments here need not interrupt the progress of your report, but are instead offered for your consideration whilst the pdf version of your final report is being composed.
--
73
Gary, N3GO
|
Re: NanoVNA-Saver 0.1.3 MAC
Hi Dana,
In OSX the nanoVNA is shown as "/dev/cu.usbmodem4001"
Normally rescan will automatically connect. You could try however to manually enter the string above
Eric
|
Re: NanoVNA-Saver 0.1.3 MAC
Hmmm, Larry, so it may be a Catalina issue as it doesn¡¯t find the usb¡
I¡¯ll try it on Mojave and see if that works¡thanks for the comments.
Oh by the way what version of Python are you using??
Dana Ve3DS
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 20, 2019, at 13:41, Larry Goga <lgoga@...> wrote:
Hello Dana,
I have been running most of the recent releases of NanoVNA-Saver on my iMac under Mojave 10.14.6. I declined the upgrade to Catalina because several of my expensive software purchases would no longer work. The procedure I use is to plug the NanoVNA into my MAC, turn on the NanoVNA and then launch the Saver program V0.1.3. When the screen paints the USB port is already properly identified and I simply select "Connect to nanoVNA". It all works perfectly and has for every release of Saver that I tried starting back at about V0.0.6.
Again, this is all under Mojave, not Catalina. If you find the correct incantation for Catalina please let us all know.
Good luck,
Larry, AE5CZ
|
Re: NanoVNA-Saver 0.1.3 MAC
Hello Dana,
I have been running most of the recent releases of NanoVNA-Saver on my iMac under Mojave 10.14.6. I declined the upgrade to Catalina because several of my expensive software purchases would no longer work. The procedure I use is to plug the NanoVNA into my MAC, turn on the NanoVNA and then launch the Saver program V0.1.3. When the screen paints the USB port is already properly identified and I simply select "Connect to nanoVNA". It all works perfectly and has for every release of Saver that I tried starting back at about V0.0.6.
Again, this is all under Mojave, not Catalina. If you find the correct incantation for Catalina please let us all know.
Good luck,
Larry, AE5CZ
|
Re: errors of "error" models
#64 : A further simplification of our [LeastVNA]
Hello,
Allow us, please, to enhance even more more our [LeastVNA]
description, by hiding even more of its internals from The
Common User who simply does not want to know even the
slightest about "those ratios", as follows:
- - - - - - (c) gin&pez@arg (cc-by-4.0) 2019 : start - - - - - -
In our sow and facupov, the [LeastVNA] of Characteristic Zo
(usually 50 Ohm) Computes the Nominal Value for the Impedance
Z of an Unknown Connected Load to its associated [AnyVNA],
after the measurements g, s, l, o, in just two 2 steps, of a total
length of 52 characters long, as follows:
G=(g-l)(o-s)/[(g-o)(s-l)-(g-s)(l-o)] : 36 chars
Z=Zo*(1+G)/(1-G) : 16 chars
while this procedure, does not exclude The Common User, who
is interested more in his [AnyVNA] internals, to indeed proceed
further with "those ratios".
- - - end : (c) gin&pez@arg (cc-by-4.0) 2019 - - - - - - - - - -
Anyway, this fact will be included in the next Update of our
/F/L/O/S/S/ [LeastVNA] for the associated [NanoVNA] of
anyone Common User like us.
Sincerely,
gin&pez@arg
64#
|
Re: errors of "error" models
Good afternoon GIN and PEZ: Briefly; Yes I have read your contiguous report @ This is much improved and helpful to me; but please understand that its falls considerably short of Dr. Kirby's stated desires and expectations. Perhaps the frustration expressed by Dr. Kirby, and shared by myself an others that may be following or attempting to follow may best be communicated by example. I have attached and renamed (for my own convenience), the first of a well written 5 part series of which a link was provided us early in this thread. This example represents the form of a well written report and I believe also represents Dr. Kirby's inference of a document entitled "Full Final Report". I should also point out that after approximately 10 minutes of searching the forum, I gave up on locating your post that provides the links to your documentation and the link to this document specifically. I finally resorted instead to providing my own downloaded copy to serve here as a prototype example of a report that an uninformed reader might expect when being presented with closing arguments of an informed third party's research. Respectfully; This is intended as a technical criticism of your communication style, and not a personal one. Our frustrations have been expressed sufficiently and clearly to this point that nonstop repetition should be unnecessary. Perhaps in your own words... The writers have been warned. My own recent post: /g/nanovna-users/message/5075... at the time of this writing... can be mostly ignored. I see the important content is being addressed. I acknowledge your response as noted and I will attempt to refrain from revisiting this topic, and hopefully limit my comments to productive or otherwise constructive ones. I will also acknowledge that it is your intent to terminate this thread with a more or less formal presentation of your work here with the NanoVNA, the introduction of your AnyVNA definition, summary of results, refinements of your algorithm(s), and ... most anticipated... your conclusions. Finally, I gratefully acknowledge your responses to my questions, guiding my understanding, and in sharing of ownership in the task of breaking through the barrier of communications. I see responses to my questions as this is being composed, so I will maintain patience and permit you time to respond. 73 Gary, N3GO -- 73 Gary, N3GO
|
Know what you are buying for a test fixture. Thanks for the Coilcraft pointer. I wonder about their test jig. My "mickey mouse": * thru cal using resistor divider approximating advertised transformer ratio, - e.g. 47 + 6.2 Ohms # for ~ 9:1 considering CH1 ~ 50 Ohm loading - measure transformer as step-down with 6.2 Ohm load * hope that performance is reversible for 1:9 step-up e.g. 50 to 540 - then 390 in series with CH1, if not back-to-back stepup-stepdown
|
Re: The Male Calibration Kit for AliExpress
Hi Rudi It was just my sense of humor who got me carried away. You link got me down the memory lane to the NWT4000 I also have. I wrote once a huge manual which suddenly showed up when google'd NWT4Win Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af reuterr@... Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 18:10 Til: [email protected]Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] The Male Calibration Kit for AliExpress On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote: Do not expect the NanoVNA to beat a more advanced VNA
Hello Kurt, Thank you for the detailed analysis. I do not want to tune the nanoVNA to a competitor of a HP VNA. I just want to make the best out of it with little effort, finding the weak spots and improve them, like: 73, Rudi DL5FA
|
Re: Authorized Distributor with 6mo Warranty?
I, also, bought the AURSINC unit and am quite happy with it. I don't regret paying a little more as at the time of purchase, they were the only ones I saw that were shielded.
|
Know what you are buying for a test fixture. Specs for trusted Coilcraft signal baluns (1/4 watt max.) Note how insertion loss will increase with bandwidth.
N0YWB
|
Mel, sometimes Kurt¡¯s links don¡¯t complete properly, even though all the words are there. Let¡¯s see if this works:
to the Test Chamber and Measurements above 500MHz.pdf
If not, try this :
Jeff
|
Hi Mel Please copy from .. Until pdf and paste into your URL in a browser. Watch out for the inserted > Then it works Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af Mel Farrer, K6KBE Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 18:05 Til: [email protected]Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig Sorry the link does not open??? Mel, K6KBE
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 8:54 AM Kurt Poulsen <kurt@...> wrote: Hi Ulrich
First of all I give you the link to another document not published but
in small "circles" and it will interest you I am sure
to the Test Chamber and Measurements
above 500MHz.pdf It might be entered in the browser directly as the io
groups messages does no like my notation ?
Regarding the adaptor, to which the male centerpin is engaging, is a
straight forward threaded SMA female female adaptor with a hex nut on
either side of the top plate, with a toothed washer on the top side.
For the male centerpin to find the female center bushing I just press
inserted a small 2mm long section of the Teflon part for a male SMA
adaptor. It has a hole of 1 mm and that is enough guidance for the
male pin to home in on the female bushing. I insert an image of both
sides, and in my case it was a bulkhead adaptor used but it does not matter what you use.
No wear to consider.
Just for the fun of it I show you my mico-chamber Regarding the DC
biasing I have no experience, but I do not see a big problem in that
either. The center pin resistance is very low so not much DC blocking
required to protect the VNWA TX out. The biggest problem is to know
the impedance of the RF isolation between the DC supply and the center
pin to be high enough. I imagine a SMA T adaptor and some sort of
resistive or inductive impedance to block the low impedance of the DC
supply. The impedance of the T adaptor seen from the RF isolation is
removed by the calibration on the output side of the T-adaptor
connected to the test chamber (with no DC current applied). So the
impedance for determining the inductance of the internal ground rod
without the toroid and with toroid is straight forward measurement as
such. How many Amps the SMA adaptors can carry is a matter for studying.
In my last mail I said some nonsense about the spreadsheet, which is
used for determining the rod impedance and that only. How to subtract
the inductance for the measurement with toroid is a matter of some
mathematics I think is covered by already available material else
revert to the matter Kind regards Kurt
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af
UlrichKraft
Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 15:25
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig
Hello Kurt,
that is a wonderful description of what you three did a while go when
measuring the performance of ferrite materials. Very cool stuff and
because I'm just looking in exactly that topic I have a few questions
questions to your fixture. I'm still on a "beginner level" using VNA
for measuring ferrite impedances, so sorry for any stupid questiosn.
When you have inserted the ferrite bead and turning the adjustment
knob it will contact the SMA F connector at some point. What type of
SMA connector did you use? I would imagin that the inner conductor
gets damaged pretty fast after using the fixture a few times? Or is that a "special"
type of SMA with more robust inner-conductor design ?
Do you know if something similar is commercially available?
Secondly, I like to characterize the ferrits with DC-BIAS current from
0 up to 10 Amps.. That changes ferrite impedance and frequency,
depending on saturation of the material.
See
cable-emi-suppression-cores/ For relatively large ferrite cores it
might be easy just adding an additional wire through the inner
dimeter, with a DC-current. That way the
RF- and DC wires are separated.
But for smaller components like wound-beads (e.g. Fair-Rite
2961666671) I need to "inject" the DC current into the signal line of
the VNA. Do you have any experience how to do that best? What kind of
RF-filtering / DC-blocking needs to be build ? How is calibration
performed then? The additional filtering will definitely change the
overall S11 response, but I want to see only the ferrite effect on the
Impedance and not any effect of that filter. The intended frequency
range is up to 500 MHz for #61 material, but ideally for full span of nanovna up to 1 GHz.
|
Re: The Male Calibration Kit for AliExpress
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Kurt Poulsen wrote: Do not expect the NanoVNA to beat a more advanced VNA
Hello Kurt, Thank you for the detailed analysis. I do not want to tune the nanoVNA to a competitor of a HP VNA. I just want to make the best out of it with little effort, finding the weak spots and improve them, like: 73, Rudi DL5FA
|
Hi Urrich I think it is worth mentioning that only when a toroid/clamp is measured in a closed chamber the true charcteristics of the material is measured. Using an open air loop you are "fooling yourself" as field lined are escaping. This statement might get someone to protest, as they have so and so good experience but fact is fact. We got Fair Rite to admit it was not the true characteristics for the material they published, but that was the best they could do (at that time) using a short wire thru a test core. Kind regards Kurt -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [email protected] < [email protected]> P? vegne af UlrichKraft Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 15:25 Til: [email protected]Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig Hello Kurt, that is a wonderful description of what you three did a while go when measuring the performance of ferrite materials. Very cool stuff and because I'm just looking in exactly that topic I have a few questions questions to your fixture. I'm still on a "beginner level" using VNA for measuring ferrite impedances, so sorry for any stupid questiosn. When you have inserted the ferrite bead and turning the adjustment knob it will contact the SMA F connector at some point. What type of SMA connector did you use? I would imagin that the inner conductor gets damaged pretty fast after using the fixture a few times? Or is that a "special" type of SMA with more robust inner-conductor design ? Do you know if something similar is commercially available? Secondly, I like to characterize the ferrits with DC-BIAS current from 0 up to 10 Amps.. That changes ferrite impedance and frequency, depending on saturation of the material. See For relatively large ferrite cores it might be easy just adding an additional wire through the inner dimeter, with a DC-current. That way the RF- and DC wires are separated. But for smaller components like wound-beads (e.g. Fair-Rite 2961666671) I need to "inject" the DC current into the signal line of the VNA. Do you have any experience how to do that best? What kind of RF-filtering / DC-blocking needs to be build ? How is calibration performed then? The additional filtering will definitely change the overall S11 response, but I want to see only the ferrite effect on the Impedance and not any effect of that filter. The intended frequency range is up to 500 MHz for #61 material, but ideally for full span of nanovna up to 1 GHz.
|
Sorry the link does not open???
Mel, K6KBE
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 8:54 AM Kurt Poulsen <kurt@...> wrote: Hi Ulrich
First of all I give you the link to another document not published but in
small "circles" and it will interest you I am sure
to the Test Chamber and Measurements
above 500MHz.pdf
It might be entered in the browser directly as the io groups messages does
no like my notation ?
Regarding the adaptor, to which the male centerpin is engaging, is a
straight forward threaded SMA female female adaptor with a hex nut on
either side of the top plate, with a toothed washer on the top side.
For the male centerpin to find the female center bushing I just press
inserted a small 2mm long section of the Teflon part for a male SMA
adaptor. It has a hole of 1 mm and that is enough guidance for the male pin
to home in on the female bushing. I insert an image of both sides, and in
my case it was a bulkhead adaptor used but it does not matter what you use.
No wear to consider.
Just for the fun of it I show you my mico-chamber
Regarding the DC biasing I have no experience, but I do not see a big
problem in that either. The center pin resistance is very low so not much
DC blocking required to protect the VNWA TX out. The biggest problem is to
know the impedance of the RF isolation between the DC supply and the center
pin to be high enough. I imagine a SMA T adaptor and some sort of resistive
or inductive impedance to block the low impedance of the DC supply. The
impedance of the T adaptor seen from the RF isolation is removed by the
calibration on the output side of the T-adaptor connected to the test
chamber (with no DC current applied). So the impedance for determining the
inductance of the internal ground rod without the toroid and with toroid is
straight forward measurement as such. How many Amps the SMA adaptors can
carry is a matter for studying.
In my last mail I said some nonsense about the spreadsheet, which is used
for determining the rod impedance and that only. How to subtract the
inductance for the measurement with toroid is a matter of some mathematics
I think is covered by already available material else revert to the matter
Kind regards
Kurt
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: [email protected] <[email protected]> P? vegne af
UlrichKraft
Sendt: 20. oktober 2019 15:25
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [nanovna-users] Measuring ferrite beads #test-jig
Hello Kurt,
that is a wonderful description of what you three did a while go when
measuring the performance of ferrite materials. Very cool stuff and because
I'm just looking in exactly that topic I have a few questions questions to
your fixture. I'm still on a "beginner level" using VNA for measuring
ferrite impedances, so sorry for any stupid questiosn.
When you have inserted the ferrite bead and turning the adjustment knob
it will contact the SMA F connector at some point. What type of SMA
connector did you use? I would imagin that the inner conductor gets damaged
pretty fast after using the fixture a few times? Or is that a "special"
type of SMA with more robust inner-conductor design ?
Do you know if something similar is commercially available?
Secondly, I like to characterize the ferrits with DC-BIAS current from 0
up to 10 Amps.. That changes ferrite impedance and frequency, depending on
saturation of the material.
See
For relatively large ferrite cores it might be easy just adding an
additional wire through the inner dimeter, with a DC-current. That way the
RF- and DC wires are separated.
But for smaller components like wound-beads (e.g. Fair-Rite 2961666671) I
need to "inject" the DC current into the signal line of the VNA. Do you
have any experience how to do that best? What kind of RF-filtering /
DC-blocking needs to be build ? How is calibration performed then? The
additional filtering will definitely change the overall S11 response, but I
want to see only the ferrite effect on the Impedance and not any effect of
that filter. The intended frequency range is up to 500 MHz for #61
material, but ideally for full span of nanovna up to 1 GHz.
|
On 16/10/2019 13:38, Rune Broberg wrote: I just released NanoVNA-Saver 0.1.3!
Hi Rune, Many thanks for this new version. I can't comment on the improvements as this is the first version that I have tested, but so far it's working well. I have pushed a new package for nanovna-saver to the Mageia Cauldron repository (our development branch). It adds the current user to the dialout group on install, has a .desktop file and a temporary icon. This will be available in our next release of Mageia (8). I can provide a .rpm for use with the current stable release of Mageia 7 if anyone would like to contact me directly. Attached is a short video of it running in Mageia 7 connected to a HWEF 80/40m antenna. Do you have an 'official' icon design available? Cheers, Barry G4MKT
|
gin&pez@arg
Oristo
Kurt Poulsen
N0YWB