开云体育

Billy,

This is the correct URL:


However, the link seems broken. If you right click on the " here" link you can copy the link address and past it into a new browser tab and doenload the file.

73,
Geoff-AB6BT

Billy, why aren't you using the links in the forum's Wiki?
Scroll down to the bottom of the Wiki - there is a lot of info there!
Read the info associated with Nanovna-App. It's all there.

I have tried to download the NanoVNA-App as recommended by Larry Rothman. I searched FireFox for "Nanovna-App".

Got:

1) => Got NanoVNA-App is the very powerful windows software developed by OneOfEleven for NanoVNA and LibreVNA.

You can download the per-compiled software here. "here" leads to a full page of machine code!

2) => NanoVNA-Web-Client / WebApp

NanoVNA-Web-Client/WebApp was developed by cho45 and can be used by accessing using the latest version of chrome browser.
(The link => blank page)

PLEASE ANYONE! Is there anyway to search for a simple PC download such as NanoVNA-App with out multiple dead-ends and goobygook. In all my years, I have never seen such unorganized and in-accessible data. I just do not understand.

Do not try to tell me where to find NanoVNA-APP, please explain this filing system and how it is organized in PLAIN SIMPLE terms. If you cannot use actual URL's, then PLEASE do not answer with general terms. And if your answer involves GITHUB, definitely use URL's. I have never used github.

Thanks in advance,
30, Billy

[cid:12814b77-0fbc-4158-b040-408ee0488153][Billy Wayne Moore]

________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of N5SE via groups.io <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 09:58
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie - Connected

Larry,

I do not mean to be impertinent or insulting nor do I want to offend you, I am only frustrated. The problem with your advice is always the SAME.
I quote you:

"I have modified the GUI of DefuseDemo and placed it in the files section. My mod enables larger font and better description of the functions of the buttons. Grab the zip'ed file and read the instructions."

You might as well as say "Go to FireFox", grab the zip'ed file!" You make a high level generalized statement and expect someone who does not understand a word you say to jump through the hoop and execute!

Now to explain, WHAT FILES SECTION? I go to /g/nanovna-users and click on /g/nanovna-users/files (THE FILES SECTION?). I get a gobblygook of what could be write-ups; who knows from the explanations. I see nothing about a zip file or Larry Rothman. I finally see down on entry 8, Firmware. So I click on it. I see five entries with Larry Rothman as author; all leading to PDF files. four of these five have firmware in them, alas which one?
1) First one goes to "hugen's firmware release notes as of Oct 9, 2019" and has a link to " which is non-clickable. I copied it, went to it, more gobblygook.
2) Second goes to "Groups.io Maintenance, Groups.io is currently undergoing maintenance. We apologize for the downtime, and expect to be back shortly., To see some cats, click here" Yes, it actually says "cats". Been here before, never goes away or changes!
3) Third, same as Second!
4) Just quit and give up on this frustrating trip.

Larry, when dealing with a Newbie, you have to present a clear map to follow. PLEASE copy and post a clear, specific starting URL. Then YOU click on each URL and post the next specific URL and the specific full name of the item to click on. Continue doing this until you have led the Newbie to the destination desired. Then give the full name to download. You have not even given the name of the zip file to download, I do not even know what I am looking for! I am so frustrated, I am ready to quit!

I do understand you want to and are trying to help. This often happens when a professional tries to help a layman. You cannot comprehend of anyone not understanding the terms you use. I had a Physics Professor that used to write a complicated expression on the board; stand back and look at it; say the answer is CLEAR; write CLEAR on the board; say QED, and write QED on the board. The class got up a petition to the Professor requesting him to go through each step solving the equation before reaching the QED. Next class, he wrote one of his famous equations on the board; stepped back and looked at it; stated CLEAR as 1+1=2; wrote CLEAR as 1+1=2 QED on the board; and said class dismissed. Talking to the Professor later, he REALLY thought he was meeting the petition request.

Larry, I feel I back in that class, but I must sincerely thank you for what you do,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Larry Rothman via groups.io <nlroth@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 08:34
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie - Connected

Billy, you can use DeFuse-demo to flash your FW or you can install and use Nanovna-App to do it. There are various message threads in the forum and user guides detailing how to do this. Use whatever method is easiest for you.
I have used all the methods to see how each works.
I have modified the GUI of DefuseDemo and placed it in the files section. My mod enables larger font and better description of the functions of the buttons. Grab the zip'ed file and read the instructions.
As for what to use to start with - try a number of PC apps aver time to see what you're most comfortable with. The Nanovna-App has the most functions but the NanovnaSaver app is written in Python and can be modified. Both are on github and are opensource.

Refer to the end of the forum wiki for a listing of apps.
If you're using Nanvna-App. right-click in the graph area to open the full context menu to configure the graph outputs.

Now, play!

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021, 08:43:47 a.m. EST, N5SE <bwmoore@...> wrote:

Roger Need,

First connected image posted for on-coming Newbies to see what it looks like. Please reply back via nanovna-users the following info for my guidance and future newbies.:

1. Do you use FIRST METHOD, SECOND METHOD, or THIRD METHOD to update your device?
2. What is the latest software update to use?
3. Should I use DfuSe DEMO V3.0.6?
4. What PC programs should I load to start out with?

Thanks in advance
30, Billy

________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 07:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger Need,

Magic! Absolute Magic! Heinlein would be pleased. Ok, now to read the rest in detail. May be a while before I post again, need to dig in now.

Thank you so much,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 16:29
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna, no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened! Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Thanks Roger,
30, Billy





________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 19:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Billy,

I understand your frustration so I will help get you started.

The NanoVNA uses 2 drivers to communicate with the PC. One is when you want to exchange data with a terminal or application program like NanoVNA Saver. The second is when you want to update the firmware by loading a "DFU" file.

In this post I will only cover the first.

Windows 7 does not have the driver installed for exchanging data so you have to install it manually. The procedure to download it from ST is cumbersome and requires registration for some reason. So I have placed it on my Box clouid drive for you to easily download. Here is the link:



Once you have successfully downloaded it you need to unzip it and install the driver Win 7. There are 32 bit and 64 bit depending on what type of CPU you have in your PC. Do not plug in the NanoVNA until after you have installed the driver. When you plug in the NanoVNA after installation you will hear Windows "bing" and you will set it in the Device Manager as a COM port.

Next step is to install NanoVNA Saver. You will find it at this link.



Download the Windows 32 or 64 bit version, unzip and install. Then run it and patiently wait - it often takes 10 seconds or so to load because it is a Python program and it unpacking the support routines. Then in the bottom left hand corner it should show the COM port of the NanoVNA (Rescan if necessary). Click "Connect to Device" and it should plot in the graphs.

This will get you started. In the Wiki for this group and on Youtube there are tutorials on how to use NanoVNA Saver.

Roger

Roger

Bill,

Part of how I word my responses it to get the end-user to search/browse through the various messages, files and FOLDERS of the areas I refer them to so that they can make a mental note of what they are looking at. This is what I do when I come across a new topic I want to learn more about.
Of course, each person learns differently and sometimes, I'm too close to the forest to see the trees....
In any case - when you're in the forum FILES section, you can click on the column headings to do an alphanumeric sort of the entries. Click on the TYPE to bring all the folders together in one place and then go through them to see what tidbits and treats each holds.
When you come to the MISC folder /g/nanovna-users/files/Miscellaneous you will see my zipped file.
There is also a folder containing modifications that has interesting notes (not in misc).

You can sort on the forum members that uploaded stuff if you'd like.

If you go to the forum HOME menu, you can see there is a Photos link on the left side - browse through the thousand+ images (seriously!). It is amazing what you'll find has been presented in the 24000+ messages in the forum. And of course, a picture is worth .....you know.
One thing to keep in mind is that EVERYTHING in this forum is put together by it's members, including all the Wiki entries. If you see something in the Wiki or anywhere that doesn't make sense - ask about it and it may be updated/clarified. We do it in our spare time, so updates may not be immediate.

Read through the very 1st link in the Wiki that has a short explanation on how to search for information. Also, a number of links in the Wiki contents may not be visually apparent, so roll you mouse over anything you're interested in to see if the cursor changes and you can click for more info. That Defuse entry is like that.

It's great you're taking all this in - there's a LOT to absorb and many members to help.

Regards,
Larry

Larry,

I do not mean to be impertinent or insulting nor do I want to offend you, I am only frustrated. The problem with your advice is always the SAME.
I quote you:

"I have modified the GUI of DefuseDemo and placed it in the files section. My mod enables larger font and better description of the functions of the buttons. Grab the zip'ed file and read the instructions."

You might as well as say "Go to FireFox", grab the zip'ed file!" You make a high level generalized statement and expect someone who does not understand a word you say to jump through the hoop and execute!

Now to explain, WHAT FILES SECTION? I go to /g/nanovna-users and click on /g/nanovna-users/files (THE FILES SECTION?). I get a gobblygook of what could be write-ups; who knows from the explanations. I see nothing about a zip file or Larry Rothman. I finally see down on entry 8, Firmware. So I click on it. I see five entries with Larry Rothman as author; all leading to PDF files. four of these five have firmware in them, alas which one?
1) First one goes to "hugen's firmware release notes as of Oct 9, 2019" and has a link to " which is non-clickable. I copied it, went to it, more gobblygook.
2) Second goes to "Groups.io Maintenance, Groups.io is currently undergoing maintenance. We apologize for the downtime, and expect to be back shortly., To see some cats, click here" Yes, it actually says "cats". Been here before, never goes away or changes!
3) Third, same as Second!
4) Just quit and give up on this frustrating trip.

Larry, when dealing with a Newbie, you have to present a clear map to follow. PLEASE copy and post a clear, specific starting URL. Then YOU click on each URL and post the next specific URL and the specific full name of the item to click on. Continue doing this until you have led the Newbie to the destination desired. Then give the full name to download. You have not even given the name of the zip file to download, I do not even know what I am looking for! I am so frustrated, I am ready to quit!

I do understand you want to and are trying to help. This often happens when a professional tries to help a layman. You cannot comprehend of anyone not understanding the terms you use. I had a Physics Professor that used to write a complicated expression on the board; stand back and look at it; say the answer is CLEAR; write CLEAR on the board; say QED, and write QED on the board. The class got up a petition to the Professor requesting him to go through each step solving the equation before reaching the QED. Next class, he wrote one of his famous equations on the board; stepped back and looked at it; stated CLEAR as 1+1=2; wrote CLEAR as 1+1=2 QED on the board; and said class dismissed. Talking to the Professor later, he REALLY thought he was meeting the petition request.

Larry, I feel I back in that class, but I must sincerely thank you for what you do,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Larry Rothman via groups.io <nlroth@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 08:34
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie - Connected

Billy, you can use DeFuse-demo to flash your FW or you can install and use Nanovna-App to do it. There are various message threads in the forum and user guides detailing how to do this. Use whatever method is easiest for you.
I have used all the methods to see how each works.
I have modified the GUI of DefuseDemo and placed it in the files section. My mod enables larger font and better description of the functions of the buttons. Grab the zip'ed file and read the instructions.
As for what to use to start with - try a number of PC apps aver time to see what you're most comfortable with. The Nanovna-App has the most functions but the NanovnaSaver app is written in Python and can be modified. Both are on github and are opensource.

Refer to the end of the forum wiki for a listing of apps.
If you're using Nanvna-App. right-click in the graph area to open the full context menu to configure the graph outputs.

Now, play!

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021, 08:43:47 a.m. EST, N5SE <bwmoore@...> wrote:

Roger Need,

First connected image posted for on-coming Newbies to see what it looks like. Please reply back via nanovna-users the following info for my guidance and future newbies.:

1. Do you use FIRST METHOD, SECOND METHOD, or THIRD METHOD to update your device?
2. What is the latest software update to use?
3. Should I use DfuSe DEMO V3.0.6?
4. What PC programs should I load to start out with?

Thanks in advance
30, Billy

________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 07:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger Need,

Magic! Absolute Magic! Heinlein would be pleased. Ok, now to read the rest in detail. May be a while before I post again, need to dig in now.

Thank you so much,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 16:29
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna, no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened! Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Thanks Roger,
30, Billy





________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 19:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Billy,

I understand your frustration so I will help get you started.

The NanoVNA uses 2 drivers to communicate with the PC. One is when you want to exchange data with a terminal or application program like NanoVNA Saver. The second is when you want to update the firmware by loading a "DFU" file.

In this post I will only cover the first.

Windows 7 does not have the driver installed for exchanging data so you have to install it manually. The procedure to download it from ST is cumbersome and requires registration for some reason. So I have placed it on my Box clouid drive for you to easily download. Here is the link:



Once you have successfully downloaded it you need to unzip it and install the driver Win 7. There are 32 bit and 64 bit depending on what type of CPU you have in your PC. Do not plug in the NanoVNA until after you have installed the driver. When you plug in the NanoVNA after installation you will hear Windows "bing" and you will set it in the Device Manager as a COM port.

Next step is to install NanoVNA Saver. You will find it at this link.



Download the Windows 32 or 64 bit version, unzip and install. Then run it and patiently wait - it often takes 10 seconds or so to load because it is a Python program and it unpacking the support routines. Then in the bottom left hand corner it should show the COM port of the NanoVNA (Rescan if necessary). Click "Connect to Device" and it should plot in the graphs.

This will get you started. In the Wiki for this group and on Youtube there are tutorials on how to use NanoVNA Saver.

Roger

Roger

Billy, you can use DeFuse-demo to flash your FW or you can install and use Nanovna-App to do it. There are various message threads in the forum and user guides detailing how to do this. Use whatever method is easiest for you.
I have used all the methods to see how each works.
I have modified the GUI of DefuseDemo and placed it in the files section. My mod enables larger font and better description of the functions of the buttons. Grab the zip'ed file and read the instructions.
As for what to use to start with - try a number of PC apps aver time to see what you're most comfortable with. The Nanovna-App has the most functions but the NanovnaSaver app is written in Python and can be modified. Both are on github and are opensource.

Refer to the end of the forum wiki for a listing of apps.
If you're using Nanvna-App. right-click in the graph area to open the full context menu to configure the graph outputs.

Now, play!

In my firmware exist expert settings for decimal separator
Config-Expert Settings-Separator

Need select dot '.' or Comma ',' depend from language settings

After save config-save

Roger Need,

First connected image posted for on-coming Newbies to see what it looks like. Please reply back via nanovan-users the following info for my guidance and future newbies.:

1. Do you use FIRST METHOD, SECOND METHOD, or THIRD METHOD to update your device?
2. What is the latest software update to use?
3. Should I use DfuSe DEMO V3.0.6?
4. What PC programs should I load to start out with?

Thanks in advance
30, Billy

________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 07:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger Need,

Magic! Absolute Magic! Heinlein would be pleased. Ok, now to read the rest in detail. May be a while before I post again, need to dig in now.

Thank you so much,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 16:29
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna, no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened! Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Thanks Roger,
30, Billy





________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 19:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Billy,

I understand your frustration so I will help get you started.

The NanoVNA uses 2 drivers to communicate with the PC. One is when you want to exchange data with a terminal or application program like NanoVNA Saver. The second is when you want to update the firmware by loading a "DFU" file.

In this post I will only cover the first.

Windows 7 does not have the driver installed for exchanging data so you have to install it manually. The procedure to download it from ST is cumbersome and requires registration for some reason. So I have placed it on my Box clouid drive for you to easily download. Here is the link:



Once you have successfully downloaded it you need to unzip it and install the driver Win 7. There are 32 bit and 64 bit depending on what type of CPU you have in your PC. Do not plug in the NanoVNA until after you have installed the driver. When you plug in the NanoVNA after installation you will hear Windows "bing" and you will set it in the Device Manager as a COM port.

Next step is to install NanoVNA Saver. You will find it at this link.



Download the Windows 32 or 64 bit version, unzip and install. Then run it and patiently wait - it often takes 10 seconds or so to load because it is a Python program and it unpacking the support routines. Then in the bottom left hand corner it should show the COM port of the NanoVNA (Rescan if necessary). Click "Connect to Device" and it should plot in the graphs.

This will get you started. In the Wiki for this group and on Youtube there are tutorials on how to use NanoVNA Saver.

Roger

Roger

I have the Nanovna only 15 days ago, but I have been 35 years as RadioAmateur driving Vna and Smith Chart and 50 years as an electronic technician, so I am not a rookie on the subject.
I have investigated many hours on the problem it had previously exposed. Furthermore, I have compared the readings of the USB port with each of the firmware v0.5.0 that worked and with the V1.0.69 / v1.0.71 / V.1.1 that made it impossible to use programs with the PC.

The only difference that I have found in the USB port reading is as follows:
Firmware 0.5.0: -SerialNumber: 0x03
English (United States) "510" (This works)

Firmware v1.0.71 and others: iSerialNumber: 0x03
English (United States) "400" (this does not work).

The light has come, and I have changed the decimal comma, (,) by the decimal point. (.) In my W10-64bits configured for Spanish language and VOIL?!.

All utilities to communicate and work with Nanovna-H4 and PC W10-64Bits work wonders.

I appreciate all support and help and I hope that this possibility is taken into account in upcoming.
Greetings /Antonio-EA7HJ - ex-EA7BDL

Roger Need,

Magic! Absolute Magic! Heinlein would be pleased. Ok, now to read the rest in detail. May be a while before I post again, need to dig in now.

Thank you so much,
30, Billy



________________________________
From: bwmoore slidesnmoore.com <bwmoore@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 16:29
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna, no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened! Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Thanks Roger,
30, Billy





________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 19:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Billy,

I understand your frustration so I will help get you started.

The NanoVNA uses 2 drivers to communicate with the PC. One is when you want to exchange data with a terminal or application program like NanoVNA Saver. The second is when you want to update the firmware by loading a "DFU" file.

In this post I will only cover the first.

Windows 7 does not have the driver installed for exchanging data so you have to install it manually. The procedure to download it from ST is cumbersome and requires registration for some reason. So I have placed it on my Box clouid drive for you to easily download. Here is the link:



Once you have successfully downloaded it you need to unzip it and install the driver Win 7. There are 32 bit and 64 bit depending on what type of CPU you have in your PC. Do not plug in the NanoVNA until after you have installed the driver. When you plug in the NanoVNA after installation you will hear Windows "bing" and you will set it in the Device Manager as a COM port.

Next step is to install NanoVNA Saver. You will find it at this link.



Download the Windows 32 or 64 bit version, unzip and install. Then run it and patiently wait - it often takes 10 seconds or so to load because it is a Python program and it unpacking the support routines. Then in the bottom left hand corner it should show the COM port of the NanoVNA (Rescan if necessary). Click "Connect to Device" and it should plot in the graphs.

This will get you started. In the Wiki for this group and on Youtube there are tutorials on how to use NanoVNA Saver.

Roger

Roger

@Manfred "Most important is to measure the leakage inductance, and optimize your transformer to get it very low, because leakage inductance most often ends up being the final limiting factor in bandwidth". Any hints or links on how to go about this exactly? This sounds like it's one of the (many) issues I'm encountering.

Wow, what a wealth of information you guys have shared! A really big Thankyou! I've included some images to show my circuit and setup in more detail and I'll try to summarize what you guys have told me so far:

1) Don't bother trying to measure the output impedance using a Nano VNA. It's likely to be very inaccurate with no RF input applied and potentially fatal for your VNA should you try to apply an input.
Comment: That's certainly what my instinct would suggest, but I'm intrigued by the correlation between the real part of the impedance being near 50 ohms and the demonstrable increase in power output that follows. If I move away from 50 ohms real, the power output falls (in either direction, obviously).

2) A better method might be to "tune" the circuit to output a power peak into the 50 ohm load, then disconnect the transformer primary from the collectors. If I then attach the VNA looking into the transformer primary, I should measure the primary impedance as transformed by the impedance transformation properties of the transformer and according to Manfred, I should see around 200 ohms (theoretically - assuming a 1W output and an impedance transformation that is working as it should!).
Comment: I like this, it makes total sense and I will try this later and report back.

Donald, I think you reiterated that measuring the output impedance as I've attempted to do makes no sense. By the way, RF Man Channel on youtube has a video on this very topic and if I understand his approach correctly, he's doing exactly as I have done?? ()

But, I think Manfred has hit the nail on the head. This amplifier simply isn't giving me the output power I expected and I've read all the passages from EMRFD and multiple other sources on how things are "supposed" to go. I understand the first few paragraphs of Manfred's response and this is certainly the approach I took at the start. However, when I tried impedance matching the collectors to the 200 ohms or so required to output 1 watt, I got an output that fell disappointingly short of that. Since then I've been in experimental mode, swapping transistors (I had tried BD139s, two in parallel for 4 in total), introducing and reducing feedback and changing the winding ratios of the transformers.

@Manfred I understand your point about the low-pass effect of the transistor capacitance, but what I don't understand is how other experimenters seem to generate much more power from similar circuits (like this one: )?? I just get the sneaky feeling that I'm doing something incorrectly and my suspicions are converging on the output transformer.

Just a couple of additional notes: the collector base feedback network was something I'd planned into my PCB, but hadn't used until I started playing with the 2SC2078's. Without that network, the circuit oscillates like crazy. I've been pushing up the value of the feedback resistor (thereby reducing the feedback), but I'm going to suggest that even if that feedback wasn't there, it still wouldn't produce the output power it should.

The output transformer windings fall far short of Manfred's (and others!) suggested rule regarding inductance > 5-10 times load at lowest freq. The thing is, I've tried quite a few winding ratios and turns at this stage and the current ratio seems to give the best output. I find this very strange, but there you go. I'll try upping the turns later, just to double check that.

Once again my thanks. Formatting is very simple once you're told how. I used W10 tools for a practice run but also downloaded the recommended software to do the new 32GB card when I get my hands on it.

Oh, and if you don't have one you will need a USB SD Card Reader. A google search will give you an idea of what is available.

This is a good utility to format SD cards:

Thanks for the help! I was using a 64G card but will switch down to a 32GB. I will have to figure out how to format the card, have never done that so a new learning experience. I'm using the 1.0.70 FW. The slot on the case and the slot on the board are not very well aligned so first pass the card went directly into the interior of the case. Had to open the case to extract the card. I used that opportunity to see which way to insert the card. Have marked the case for the future when I forget which way.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 02:29 PM, N5SE wrote:

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna,
no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened!
Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Yes the driver for your NanoVNA is installed. Try installing NanoVNA Saver and see if you can connect to it on COM15

Roger

There is no point really in measuring the actual output impedance of a power amplifier stage, because you should not be trying to match it with an equal load impedance.

What you need to determine is what the correct load impedance between collectors has to be, to get correct operation of that stage.

And that's pretty easy to calculate. Instead of giving you a simple formula, I will explain step by step:

Each of your transistors can pull its collector voltage pretty close to ground, but not fully. The closer the instant drain voltage gets to ground, the higher becomes the transistor's internal capacitance, so there is a soft limiting effect. In practice, you can simply assume that a transistor like that can pull its collector down to roughly 1V, but the actual value will depend on the load, the frequency, and the amount of distortion you can accept.

The opposite peak voltage is as much above the supply voltage, as this 1V level is below the supply. So, if you happen to use a 12V supply, that high peak would be 23V, and this means that the peak-to-peak voltage on each of your collectors is 22V.

Since it's a push-pull circuit, the collector-to-collector voltage is twice that, so, 44V p-p.

The RMS voltage, important for power calculation, is the peak-to-peak voltage divided by 2 and then divided by the square root of 2, so it's 15.6V.

If you want 1W output, divide 1÷15.6, and you get 0.064A. That's the RMS current that needs to flow in your primary winding.

Now apply Ohm's Law, and it tells you that the load resistance that needs to appear between collectors is 244?. This means that you need to transform the impedance DOWN to 50?, not UP! The 1-3? value mentioned by Dave is typical for high power transistors, but not for a 1W amplifier. In any case the correct value has to be calculated.

If you use a simple 2:1 turns ratio, then a 50? load on the secondary will cause a 200? load between collectors. Having 200? instead of 244? isn't a problem. It simply means that when delivering 1W, the collectors will swing over a slightly smaller voltage range than 22V p-p, and that the RF current will be slightly higher than the 64mA calculated above. So the efficiency of the amplifier will be somewhat lower, while at the same time giving you a little more headroom, and slightly lower distortion. So, 2:1 turns ratio is what I would use. Remember that this assumes a 12V supply! If you are using a different voltage, the values will all change.

You need to use enough turns so that the inductance of the primary is at least 3 to 5 times the collector load value, at the lowest frequency of operation. That means roughly 1k? reactance, in this case. 12 turns will get you close to this. The secondary, of course, will then have 6 turns. You don't need a separate feed choke in this case. You can simply center tap the primary, and apply the supply there. The bifiliar feed choke becomes necessary when you have a single-turn primary, in a high-power, low impedance situation, because a single turn cannot be center-tapped. A connection to its midpoint would result in no coupling between the halves. With 12 turns, you don't have that problem, so, save that FT-37-43!

After winding and installing this transformer, your amplifier should work decently at low frequencies. As the frequency rises, you will run into trouble coming from leakage inductance in the transformer, capacitances everywhere, and speed limitations of the transistors. The 2SC2078 has 45pF output capacitance at 10V. Add stray capacitances in the windings and wiring, and you probably get 60pF or so, total. Two of these in series, for the pushpull, make 30pF across your primary. To have negligible effect, the reactance of this capacitance should stay above 3-5 times the load value, at the highest frequency of operation. With a load of 200-244?, that's close to 1k?, and 30pF will limit you to operate up to about 5MHz!

That's the problem with broadband circuits. The parasitics often make it hard to cover the whole frequency range desired. You can improve matters by using tricks like absorbing the transistor output capacitance into lowpass filter sections, but it all has its limits.

Broadband work gets easiest if the impedances stay in a range close to 50?. The 2SC2078 can easily deliver 1W alone, rather than using a pushpull pair. The required load impedance would be very close to 50?, so you could use direct coupling, without any output transformer! But you would need to run it in class A, to get sufficiently low distortion. That means a constant dissipation of about 4W in that transistor. Easy to do, since that transistor can handle a lot more, but not as efficient as class AB. The lower load impedance reduces the effect of the transistor's capacitances, pushing the upper frequency limit up, but not nearly to 30MHz. It should work fine at 7MHz, and acceptable at 14MHz, but will drop a lot on higher bands.

If you need all efficiency you can get, and thus want to keep the push-pull design, you will have to move to smaller transistors. Also if you want flat response to 30MHz or beyond. My secret tip would be the 2N5109. Although pricey these days, it's a very good little transistor, and its output capacitance is fifteen times lower than that of the 2SC2078, essentially removing transistor capacitance as a limiting factor at HF. For the same reason it will generate far lower distortion. This has to do with the fact that much of a transistor amplifier's distortion comes from its voltage-modulated internal capacitances. Smaller capacitances, smaller distortion.

2N3866 is a cheaper alternative. Unfortunately these days there aren't a lot of suitable transistors in this power class to choose from.

The FT82 core is huge! You can use a much smaller core for a 1W amplifier. I always prefer twin-hole cores over toroids, because they give a better ratio between inductance and wire length, and that allows better bandwidth,

To measure with the nanoVNA whatever transformer you build, I suggest doing it outside the circuit, with suitable load resistors. You can add the transistor capacitances by adding suitable small capacitors, and see what happens. Most important is to measure the leakage inductance, and optimize your transformer to get it very low, because leakage inductance most often ends up being the final limiting factor in bandwidth. When you cannot get the leakage inductance of a conventional transformer low enough, you have to move on to a transmission-line transformer.

43 material can be used throughout the HF range, but is more lossy than 61, specially in the center of the range, where 61 excels. Between those two, you always need to weigh costs and benefits. When you need lots of inductance, use 43. When you need to handle some DC, use 61. When linearity is important, use 61. When loss is important, 61 of course. When cost is important, specially with large cores, 43. When the cores might get very hot, use 61. I often end up using small 43 cores in the driver stages, and large 61 cores in the high power stages.

Bifiliar/twisted winding gives you much lower leakage inductance, but much higher interwinding capacitance. So, twisted windings are optimal at low impedances, while more separated windings work better at high impedances. The limit between "low" and "hIgh" might be roughly 100?, but depends on the situation. The nanoVNA is your friend when optimizing these transformers!

Manfred

Roger,

Downloaded en.stsw-stm32102.zip from:



Unzipped en.stsw-stm32102.zip to six files:
readme.txt
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x64_64bits.exe
VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W8_x86_32bits.exe
version.txt

Since I run windows 7 32bit, I installed:

VCP_V1.5.0_Setup_W7_x86_32bits.exe

Went through install procedure Got install confirmation. Plugged in nanovna, no bing! Turned on nanovna, no bing! No indication at all anything happened! Go to device manager and find:

STMicroelectronics Virtual COM Port (COM15)

General: Port_#0003.Hub_#0004

Is this what I am looking for. Is everything oi?

Thanks Roger,
30, Billy





________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 19:02
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Confused Newbie

Billy,

I understand your frustration so I will help get you started.

The NanoVNA uses 2 drivers to communicate with the PC. One is when you want to exchange data with a terminal or application program like NanoVNA Saver. The second is when you want to update the firmware by loading a "DFU" file.

In this post I will only cover the first.

Windows 7 does not have the driver installed for exchanging data so you have to install it manually. The procedure to download it from ST is cumbersome and requires registration for some reason. So I have placed it on my Box clouid drive for you to easily download. Here is the link:



Once you have successfully downloaded it you need to unzip it and install the driver Win 7. There are 32 bit and 64 bit depending on what type of CPU you have in your PC. Do not plug in the NanoVNA until after you have installed the driver. When you plug in the NanoVNA after installation you will hear Windows "bing" and you will set it in the Device Manager as a COM port.

Next step is to install NanoVNA Saver. You will find it at this link.



Download the Windows 32 or 64 bit version, unzip and install. Then run it and patiently wait - it often takes 10 seconds or so to load because it is a Python program and it unpacking the support routines. Then in the bottom left hand corner it should show the COM port of the NanoVNA (Rescan if necessary). Click "Connect to Device" and it should plot in the graphs.

This will get you started. In the Wiki for this group and on Youtube there are tutorials on how to use NanoVNA Saver.

Roger

Roger

I don’t think I know how to read impedance either on a nanoVNA, but it lets you read resistance R on one output and reactance X on another, and the impedance would simply be R + jX.