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In the past members of this group have said there are no viral threats to Macs, but this article suggests that has changed.
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On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 07:27 AM, DavidU wrote:
In the past members of this group have said there are no viral threats to Macs, but this article suggests that has changed.
?
To be clear, this article refers to Malware threats which FYI are NOT the same thing as viral threats. We don’t dispute the fact that there is Malware on Macs, but there still are no credible viral (i.e. virus) threats to Macs.
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Dave
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DavidU wrote: In the past members of this group have said there are no viral threats to?Macs, but this article suggests that has changed.
<>
While the word “virus” does occur in the article, each time that it is used correctly, it refers to Windows viruses.
Similarly for the MalwareBytes article it refers to.
I also did a quick search for “viruses for macOS” and scanned the top 3 articles.
Nowhere did I find documentation of a *virus* in the wild that infects current, up-to-date Macs.
Other forms of malware, yes, but not a virus. A?computer virus?is a type of??that, when executed, replicates itself by modifying other computer programs and inserting its own code.?When this replication succeeds, the affected areas are then said to be "infected" with a computer virus.
Most “Mac viruses” are simply incorrect use of technical language (e.g., attacks or malware including worms, phishing attacks, etc.). There are perfectly good terms to describe those things without calling them “virus”.
If someone finds an actual computer virus (not another form of malware) that successfully infects and reproduces within current macOS, I would like to see the reference.
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On Feb 13, 2020, at 6:27 AM, DavidU wrote: In the past members of this group have said there are no viral threats to Macs, but this article suggests that has changed. The article is from a non-Macintosh-concerned Web site, and it cites a company that wants to sell you anti-virus software. Even at that, the article says: "And if you know what you're doing on the Web, you're still almost totally safe on a Mac." My suggestion is that you only get your Macintosh advice from Macintosh experts, or at the minimum, Macintosh-related sources. Most other sources either don't know what they are talking about, or they want to screw you and take your money. ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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Howdy. Randy, Jim, and Dave did very good responses to this article. I've been dealing with Macintosh since 1985 and used to be a bit of a virus expert. It's difficult to keep up with malware because of the gigantic amount of it for Microsoft Windows and Microsoft fans who assume that Macintosh is just as vulnerable as Windows. For years, Microsoft Windows users, almost all uninformed, have claimed that Macs are very vulnerable to viruses attacks. I've heard this bogus claim many times. But if you ask one of these people to actually name a Mac virus he can't do that. I think that Microsoft has finally improved Windows security and reduced the viral threat but at one time there may have been well over one million viruses for Windows and DOS. When you hear of stores like Target retail POS (Point of Sale systems) and Home Depot, Macys, Checkers (hamburger chain), Marriott hotels, the British National Health System, City of Baltimore, and many others being hacked, hit by ransomeware, customer data filched, it is ALWAYS 99.99% Windows system. ALWAYS. For Macintosh System (the original Mac OS from 1984 to 2001), for 17 years, there were 56 Macintosh viruses. Most were "benign" but irritating. Macintosh System version 9.2 ended life with no known viruses that could infect it in 2001. macOS X operating system, introduced in 2001, has had zero viruses for 19 years. None. I have, however, read of one theoretical virus that was proposed, but never found in the wild, back around 2003 IIRC. It's important to distinguish between a virus, adware, key loggers, Trojan horse, and now ransomware. There are different threats and scams to fool people into downloading something that tries to get a credit card number. Last I checked macOS X had a few ransomeware items, An example is FBI Scam from 2013. Last I checked macOS X had approximately 19 Trojan horses with most being made moot by changes made by Apple. 0 For several years, Microsoft Office malicious macros could be transmitted to Mac from an Office program but this problem has really almost died out. I've read of one item that was a problem by using a fake Adobe Flash installer. It bypassed Apple's Gatekeeper because it had a "signed" certificate from Apple which was then revoked by Apple. There have been some cryptocurrency malware items. How many people here deal with cryptocurrency? If you want to read some more about the few potential threats, go to this article in MacWorld UK. <> Denver Dan On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:27:17 -0600, DavidU wrote: In the past members of this group have said there are no viral
threats to Macs, but this article suggests that has changed.
[|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|] iSent from iDan's GyazMail on my MacPro
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We shouldn’t split hairs. A malicious attack is a malicious attack. Malicious attacks against Mac users are on the rise, particularly ransom attacks. There are Trojans for Mac. There are browser hijacks which are OS agnostic. Malicious emails are a dime-a-dozen.
Most “security” software is multi-threat, and good software made for Macs can offer an additional layer of protection. Whether any given security software is useful or worthwhile must be considered on a case by case basic.
Both Mac and Windows OS currently have good protection built it. There is an argument to be made that security software suites are obsolete on both systems for reasons too complicated to get into here. However, Windows users have good options and because the software works and because Windows users are more likely to be attacked, the use of this software is routine. Similar options for Mac users are weaker and because Mac users are less likely to be targeted, such security software is not widely recommended. That does not mean it is not useful, just that people have judged it less necessary.
I personally don’t use Mac security suites, but I am vigilant against threats. I use mail services that aggressively scan incoming mail. I use secure browsers (Firefox, Opera) rather than the default, though this is arguably more about privacy than security. Also, don’t use Chrome. It’s essentially spyware. My systems sit behind effective firewalls. I keep security features enabled in the OS and run good backups.
Cheers,
tod
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On Feb 18, 2020, at 8:47 AM, hoplist wrote: We shouldn’t split hairs. A malicious attack is a malicious attack. Malicious attacks against Mac users are on the rise, Please give us a link to a reputable Web site that lists these new attacks by name. particularly ransom attacks. There is NO ransomware in the wild for the Macintosh. NONE. Ransomware is a scourge for Windows users, but the Macintosh is not Windows. One disreputable company that wants to sell folks anti-virus software wrote a fictitious "report" about a supposed rise in Mac malware, and now a lot of folks are panicking. But..it's not at ll true. The MalwareBytes "report" lists no new malware, gives no citations, and isn't backed up by anything. It's a lie. Other people should not be going around yelling that "the sky is falling" without citations. ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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On Feb 18, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote: There is NO ransomware in the wild for the Macintosh. NONE. "Can Macs get ransomware and how to stop a ransomware attack" ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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On Feb 18, 2020, at 10:43 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
There is NO ransomware in the wild for the Macintosh. NONE.
"Can Macs get ransomware and how to stop a ransomware attack"
I quote from the article you cite above. "Unfortunately even Macs have been affected by Ransomware attacks, although these are very rare, as you will see if you read on.” Attacks don’t get named until after they happen. The most dangerous attack is a zero-day attack—the attack that has never happened before. The software and knowledge is out there. It’s not even particularly hard to find. Ask a hacker. I’m not trying to scare anyone. I believe the risk is low and remains low. Macs are safer because no one bothers to target them. It’s not worth the effort. There are simply too few Macs compared to Windows. And writing effective malware is, in fact, quite hard. What concerns me is the pervasive myth that Macs are somehow inherently “safe.” That is dangerous. Like keeping your door unlocked because you live in a “low-crime” area (which I must admit that I do). Macs are no harder to hack than any other system. The fact that they have been rarely targeted in the past is not protection against targeting in the future. Maryland rarely has earthquakes but the potential for a massive, city-shattering quake as big as anything California has ever seen sits below the state. Rare is not non-existent. Should I prepare? There is no easy answer to that question. I also like keep in mind that OS of choice for the best and brightest computer minds is not Windows or Mac. It’s linux. Cheers, tod P.S. If you want to be scared, read Edward Snowden’s book, "Permanent Record," or listen to the Audible series, "Dark Web” or frankly any good book about real-world hacking and global security.
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Howdy. This is just not the case and has been debunked many times. There are hundreds of millions of Macs and over a billion iOS devices. There are more devices running macOS X and iOS than there are Windows devices. Apple just does a better job at security. Denver Dan On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:11:28 -0500, hoplist wrote: I’m not trying to scare anyone. I believe the risk is low and remains
low. Macs are safer because no one bothers to target them. It’s not
worth the effort. There are simply too few Macs compared to Windows.
And writing effective malware is, in fact, quite hard. [|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|] iSent from iDan's GyazMail on my MacPro
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Plus the fact that Mac users are seen as smug, which surely?makes them even more of a target.
Otto
Howdy.
This is just not the case and has been debunked many times.
There are hundreds of millions of Macs and over a billion iOS
devices.? ?There are more devices running macOS X and iOS than there
are Windows devices.?
Apple just does a better job at security.
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On Feb 19, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Otto Nikolaus via Groups.Io wrote: Plus the fact that Mac users are seen as smug, which surely makes them even more of a target. The bad guys who create malware these days aren't hobbyists. They are organized criminals. The create malware to make money. Creating malware for the macintosh is very difficult. It takes many months and huge amounts of money to create effective malware. So they aren't creating malware because they want to get back at "smug" Mac users. They either see an opportunity to make money or they don't. The thing is, Apple makes such an endeavor unprofitable by fairly quickly pushing out security updates to protect against new threats as they arise. The Mac OS includes several layers of anti-malware protection. In fact, the fact that Apple is so on top of this, combined with how hard and expensive it is to write malware for the Mac almost surely discourages malware-writing criminals from targeting the Macintosh. It is a waste of their time if Apple shuts their malware down before they can make much, if any, money off of their malware. They may not even recoup their original investment to create the malware in the first place. In 2011 when the Trojan "Mac Defender" appeared, it is interesting to read about the lengths that Apple went to to protect us from it: Mac Malware 'Explosion' Missing In Action ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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On Feb 19, 2020, at 6:11 AM, hoplist wrote: I quote from the article you cite above. "Unfortunately even Macs have been affected by Ransomware attacks, although these are very rare, as you will see if you read on.” And if you read the article, you will see that while criminals have tried to create ransomware for the Mac, they have either been unsuccessful, or they have been quickly shut down, and no ransomware for the Mac remains in the wild and the Mac gets hardened against each failed attempt so that an entirely new method of attack has to be devised if the criminals want to try again.
Attacks don’t get named until after they happen. The most dangerous attack is a zero-day attack—the attack that has never happened before.
Windows bigots have been saying that there will be a flood of malware for the Macintosh "real soon now" since the advent of OS X...19 long years ago. When something shows up in the wild that is really virulent and Apple doesn't immediately patch the Macintosh against it, it will be....the first such thing. We can all run around like chickens with our heads cut off *then*. Until then, there is nothing to be done to protect ourselves from that which does not exist (and which may never exist). Even anti-virus software requires that its developer have a sample of the malware that it is protecting against to be able to create a protective "definition". I've been running anti-virus software for close to two decades (because my profession requires it), and in all that time it has not yet saved me even once from something that I needed saving from. The software and knowledge is out there. It’s not even particularly hard to find. Ask a hacker. I have a software engineer in the family. He says that it's really really hard to write malware for the Macintosh. And he's not the only one: "Is Windows inherently more vulnerable to malware attacks than OS X?" <> or
I’m not trying to scare anyone.
Then I think that you need to re-read your posts and think about how they are being perceived. I believe the risk is low and remains low. Correct. Macs are safer because no one bothers to target them. It’s not worth the effort. There are simply too few Macs compared to Windows. That's utter BS that is long out of date. There are well over 100 MILLION Macintoshes in use: <> Viruses and Operating Systems by David Pogue (originally published in the New York Times)
What concerns me is the pervasive myth that Macs are somehow inherently “safe.”
Well, judging by the virus definitions in the ClamAV database, there are between 5 MILLION and 6 MILLION pieces of malware for Windows. (Think about that for a second.) Based on all believable sources, there have been between 50 and 100 pieces of malware for the Macintosh (more likely closer to the lower end estimate) created in the last two decades, almost all of which no longer exist in the wild, or the Mac has been patched against them. The Macintosh has several layers of protection: XProtect/File Quarantine/Gatekeeper/MRT/SIP (OS_X) So, yes, just empirically I'd say that they Macintosh was fairly "safe." For two decades now I've heard some folks say that "soon" there will be a flood of viruses for the Macintosh. For years now my bet has been that there won't be. (If there was going to be, I would have expected it years ago, when the Macintosh had less built-in security.) I should have bet money on it, I'd be rich. ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 17:56, Randy B. Singer < randy@...> wrote: ? The bad guys who create malware these days aren't hobbyists.? They are organized criminals.? The create malware to make money.? Creating malware for the macintosh is very difficult.? It takes many months and huge amounts of money to create effective malware.
So they aren't creating malware because they want to get back at "smug" Mac users.? They either see an opportunity to make money or they don't.
The thing is, Apple makes such an endeavor unprofitable by fairly quickly pushing out security updates to protect against new threats as they arise.? The Mac OS includes several layers of anti-malware protection.? In fact, the fact that Apple is so on top of this, combined with how hard and expensive it is to write malware for the Mac almost surely discourages malware-writing criminals from targeting the Macintosh. It is a waste of their time if Apple shuts their malware down before they can make much, if any, money off of their malware.? They may not even recoup their original investment to create the malware in the first place.
In 2011 when the Trojan "Mac Defender" appeared,? it is interesting to read about the lengths that Apple went to to protect us from it:
Mac Malware 'Explosion' Missing In Action
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing. It's just that "I'll show those arrogant Mac users!" might be an extra incentive for some. There are many Mac haters out there who can't bear the thought that anyone might not want to use Windows.?
Also, I get the impression that Mac users might, on average, have higher incomes than Windows users. If true, that's another incentive.?
Otto
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EtreCheck Pro, in its brand new release, contains this note:
"Probably one of the most widely misunderstood topics is computer security. First of all, remember that Apple provides multiple layers of antivirus and malware protection in the macOS operating system itself. You don’t need any 3rd party antivirus protection. When you first turned on your Mac, it was probably the most secure that it has ever been. Most suggestions posted on the internet to install software or change system settings will make your machine less secure. Many popular 3rd party security products are simply scams and give you no protection of any kind.
"Most of the popular media headlines about security exploits do not concern your Macintosh. Do not pay attention to news media or bloggers. Trust Apple. Apple has a team of professional software engineers who specialize in system security. If your machine needs an update for security, Apple will provide it. "
___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
___________________________________________
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Daniel Settles wrote: This is just not the case and has been debunked many times.?
There are hundreds of millions of Macs and over a billion iOS?
devices. ? There are more devices running macOS X and iOS than there?
are Windows devices.
Apple just does a better job at security.
“Security through obscurity” was bunk when they started claiming it 15-20?years ago.
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Randy B. Singer wrote: EtreCheck Pro, in its brand new release, contains this note:
"Probably one of the most widely misunderstood topics is computer security.?First of all, remember that Apple provides multiple layers of ?antivirus and?malware protection in the macOS operating system itself. You don’t need any?3rd party antivirus protection. When you first turned on your Mac, it was?probably the most secure that it has ever been. Most suggestions posted on?the internet to install software or change system settings will make your?machine less secure. Many popular 3rd party security products are simply?scams and give you no protection of any kind.
"Most of the popular media headlines about security exploits do not concern?your Macintosh. Do not pay attention to news media or bloggers. Trust Apple.?Apple has a team of professional software engineers who specialize in?system security. If your machine needs an update for security, Apple will?provide it. "
Randy –
I’ve found, over the years, that if you offer an opinion, it is?generally researched, well-formed, and sound.
Do you have one of those opinions about Sqwark’s DetectX, and what it is, or is not, good for?
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On Feb 19, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Jim Saklad via Groups.Io wrote: Randy –
I’ve found, over the years, that if you offer an opinion, it is generally researched, well-formed, and sound. How nice of you to say! Thank you! I've spent many years as the head of a user group for attorneys. You can't say anything to attorneys without making a strong case and usually offering citations for what you are saying. (Even when you are just trying to help someone!) So I've gotten into the habit of doing that. I *do* want to be helpful and not just be someone who offers wild opinions with nothing to back them up. Do you have one of those opinions about Sqwark’s DetectX, and what it is, or is not, good for? The thing is, Apple and the traditional anti-virus software companies don't seem to consider adware and PUP's (potentially unwanted programs such as MacKeeper) to be Malware at all (unless they also do something malicious, beyond serving up ads), and they don't look for them and defend against them. (I'm not sure, but I suspect that Apple, and maybe the traditional anti-virus software developers too, are wary about the legal ramifications of setting their products to delete potentially unwanted programs where it might be possible for the developers of the PUP's to argue that they are legitimate and not truly malicious in a courtroom. It would be nasty to lose a lawsuit to a company that claims that you are going around deleting or blocking their legitimate commercial product.) So, Mawarebytes and DetectX are sort of invaluable products, since the Mac OS itself, and traditional anti-virus programs, don't protect you from adware. Both Malwarebytes and DetectX claim to look for all Mac malware, not just adware. I find that impossible to believe, because either product does a scan of your entire drive that only lasts less than a minute. By contrast, a true anti-malware product can take an hour or more to scan your entire drive. What seems more likely is that both products only look in a few pre-determined places on your drive quickly, and only look for a select number of pieces of malware, likely the ones that are easy to spot just by their file name. But they both do an excellent job of finding and removing adware. So that's what they are good for; when you find that you've been hit with adware, either product seems to be great at removing it. As of late, while malware is almost non-existant on the Macintosh, adware is fairly common, and it's easy to get infected with it if are uninformed. (Often it comes in the form of a pop-up offering you a download of something like a Flash upgrade.) I've stopped recommending Malwarebytes; at least as a first choice for dealing with adware. MalwareBytes has become very intrusive recently. Even the free version of MalwareBytes now installs a lot of files all over your Mac, deep in the System. If you put "malwarebytes" into EasyFind, it's really varied for folks. Some find just a few files, some find as many as 23! I don't know what they are all doing, but as they are all very deep in the System, I don't trust the product, and, especially after the dishonest "report" that they just released that has some less knowledgeable Mac users all freaked out about malware now, I don't trust the company it comes from. Instead I now recommend DetectX for dealing with adware, which isn't as intrusive, for dealing with adware: DetectX/Swift Since adware isn't truly malicious, and you almost always know when you have it, I don't recommend using the automated scanning features of either DetectX or Malwarebytes, which might slow down your Mac or create software conflicts. In fact, you probably don't even need to download either program until and unless you are hit by adware. If you are the paranoid type, you may even want to use EasyFind to delete either program after you've used it, just to be careful that the program isn't harvesting personal information of yours. ___________________________________________ Randy B. Singer Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions) Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance ___________________________________________
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On Feb 19, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Randy B. Singer < randy@...> wrote:
Windows bigots
I’m pretty sure there are no Windows bigots on this list.
Does your average Mac user need additional anti-virus software? The consensus is, no. I agree with the consensus.?
Have you issued a restraining order against your ex? If you have, then you probably need a 3rd party malware scanner.
One size never fits all.
Cheers, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? tod
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There are hundreds of millions of Macs and over a billion iOS?
devices. ??There are more devices running macOS X and iOS than there?
are Windows devices. ?
iOS is a distinct operating system.
Wikipedia offers: In the area of desktop and computers, Microsoft Windows is generally above 70% in most markets and at 77% globally, Apple's at around 13%, Google's ChromeOS at about 6% (in the US) and Linux at around 2%.
More importantly, the vast majority of Macs are consumer machines. The share of Macs in the professional market is very low, especially globally. Malware development is driven by business and government targets, not consumers. Ransomware technologies, for instance, were developed to attack big organizations, not individual consumers. Consumers are really an ancillary target.?
In addition, Windows systems tend to be much older and more poorly maintained compared Mac systems. This means that within the Windows slice of the pie, a far larger percentage are vulnerable.
The net result is that Windows systems globally present a far more lucrative target for malicious actors.
Malware is driven by market forces, not technical simplicity.
Cheers, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? tod
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Dave Kelly
Jim Saklad
todhop