Re: MacPro 2019 Back Home
Howdy. Jim, you make some good points but I think I would dispute your criticism of the two partitions of the SSD boot drive. It keeps system stuff separate from your files, documents, images, etc., and should the system partition collapse it is a lot easier to replace/fix/repair without losing your files and documents. It's also better documented and a user can actually see the partitions in Disk Utility. Denver Dan On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:44:52 -0700, jimrobertson via Groups.Io wrote:
Witness the way in which the boot volume is actually TWO volumes but
cloaked as one. Why is that preferable to just making it clear that
there’s a read-only system volume and a separate volume containing
user accounts, productivity apps, and user-changeable settings.
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Re: MacPro 2019 Back Home
I think this is a big change by Apple. ?It's very, very poorly?
documented and introduced by Apple. ?Anyone getting a new Mac with a T2?
chip needs to be able to figure this stuff out without a month of?
effort and a trip to an from and Apple store with a giant 40 pound?
(18.4 kg) computer. ??Yes. ?The handles were convenient!
If it’s too much effort, you can send me that paperweight. I’ll even pay the postage! ?
Seriously, I know how frustrating this must be, especially leveraged against the size of your investment!
While Apple IS producing what seem to be qualitatively superior products now compared with their missteps of the past few years, their documentation of how they do and don’t work is frustratingly poor (as is the knowledge of the people who are deployed to support them, either by phone or on site).
Witness the way in which the boot volume is actually TWO volumes but cloaked as one. Why is that preferable to just making it clear that there’s a read-only system volume and a separate volume containing user accounts, productivity apps, and user-changeable settings.
Witness the way in which NO ONE at Apple has been able to tell me why I must reboot in order to join unencrypted WiFi networks
Witness the way in which NO ONE at Apple can tell me why, when my brand new laptop wakes up, it sometimes cannot find its own trackpad and keyboard (fortunately, this is only an occasional occurrence and just delays my using the machine for only a minute or two before, somehow, the system realizes it’s looking for input sources embedded in the box rather then reached by BlueTooth connections!
--?
Jim Robertson
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On Mar 3, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Christopher Collins via Groups.Io < maclist@...> wrote:
If you have 2 factor authentication turned on, that will be why thunderbird can’t get in.
You need to setup a special password on iCloud and copy that to Thunderbird.
And your iCloud mail password should be the same as your AppleID password.
Practically, that’s “sort-of” the case, but it’s a special instance of multiple authentication. Apple has created a requirement that third party applications seeking to access data stored in iCloud must have application-specific passwords. It’s not the same as “ordinary” two factor authentication, because the app-specific password needs to be entered only ONCE, not each time the application is used, and unlike “ordinary” two-factor authentication, entering the second factor in response to an each-episode-of-use polling of the user on a separate device also registered to the user is not required.
And, as others have noted. while it makes sense for most people to have their Apple ID password also be their iCloud mail password, that’s not required by Apple.
--?
Jim Robertson
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Howdy.
I wrote earlier about a problem with the new MacPro 2019. Couldn't
boot in Recovery or from an external boot drive.
Took it to an Apple Store last Friday.
I went back to Apple Store and picked it up tonight. And I can now
boot in Recovery and boot from an external drive.
Multiple changes by Apple caused this problem.
Startup Security Utility.
Catalina and Macs with the T2 chip have something new called Startup
Security Utility. It's part of Recovery mode and found on the
Utilities menu.
Startup Security Utility does several things dealing with security.
In addition, booting in Recovery is different. One must shut down the
do a cold boot and immediately press Command r.
Note that the about is still iffy because it may not work if the
Startup Security Utility is set to factory defaults. This is still
unsure to me.
Startup Security Utility has the following options.
? Turn on Firmware password
Secure Boot:
? Full Security
? Medium Security
? No Security
Allowed Boot Mode:
? Disallow Booting from external or removable media (like a USB flash
drive).
?Allow booting from external or removable media.
More on this later including links to Apple info on Recovery and
Startup Security Utility.
I think this is a big change by Apple. It's very, very poorly
documented and introduced by Apple. Anyone getting a new Mac with a T2
chip needs to be able to figure this stuff out without a month of
effort and a trip to an from and Apple store with a giant 40 pound
(18.4 kg) computer. Yes. The handles were convenient!
Denver Dan
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:26 PM, jimrobertson via Groups.Io < jimrobertson@...> wrote:
Although all of the items in Macintosh HD\System\Applications are Apple apps, all of those applications are also listed as present in the Macintosh HD\Applications folder, which contains all my 3rd party applications as well, along with some things from Apple that would be considered productivity applications;?e.g.,?Numbers, Pages, and Keynote.
That’s essentially what I said. What I wasn’t certain about was whether there were 2 copies of each of the core Apple “part of the standard OS installation” applications.
Thanks to Bev and Dan, who helped me exorcise one of the two iterations of “Macintosh HD” from my Finder Sidebar.
--?
Jim Robertson
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If you have 2 factor authentication turned on, that will be why thunderbird can’t get in.
You need to setup a special password on iCloud and copy that to Thunderbird.
And your iCloud mail password should be the same as your AppleID password.
Christopher
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On 3 Mar 2020, at 11:32 am, Bob Beckham via Groups.Io <rbeckhm@...> wrote:
Hi Folks!
I did try Thunderbird, but it couldn’t log into the iCloud account. Says my password is wrong. I’m assuming the mail password is the same as the Apple ID password. Correct?
Bob Beckham
FCC Radiotelephone w/Radar P1-6S-2422
Late 2012 iMac 27” - 16 Gig RAM - 1TB SSD - macOS 10.15.3
2019 Harley Ultra Limited 114
1993 Allen MDS Theater 2
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
The puzzle for me is why my “Macintosh HD” is listed?twice, because both are?really the same thing. Icon views of each of them show that each “contains”?both the system files and user files; column views shows the same “read only”?designation for the System, Library, and Users Folders, but within the “Users”?folder, my own user is NOT listed as read only. Total available space is the?same size for both iterations; I’m unable to get the Finder to calculate size of?individual folders in the columnar views of what’s in either of them.
My advice: drag one of the duplicates off to delete it, and stop worrying… Another Catalina oddity that trying to sort this out has revealed is that each?iteration of “Macintosh HD has both?
Macintosh HD\Applications
and
Macintosh HD\System\Applications folders?
(and neither of these is the ~\Applications Folder (which has a few things in it?that were put there by a GoToMeeting Installer—not by me, manually).
Not to belabor the obvious, but…
<Macintosh HD\System\Applications>? contains apps installed BY the Catalina installer.? It doesn’t even have Pages or Numbers, which are Apple Apps, but NOT system-installed
<Macintosh HD\Applications>? contains *all* your Apps (unless you have manually installed them elsewhere), including the afore-mentioned System Apps (by way of a hard-link, or sym-link, or whatever).? If you ask for Info on, say the Chess App in <Macintosh HD\Applications>, it will tell you it is actually located in <Macintosh HD\System\Applications>
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
On Mar 3, 2020, at 8:30 AM, jimrobertson via Groups.Io < jimrobertson@...> wrote:
For some reason, under “Favorites,” I have two iterations of “Macintosh HD”, both read-only, but both exactly the same size:<MacHD screenshot.png> Both are marked as “Read Only (lower L corner)” but I assume that this is because the “Macintosh HD” designation applies to both the Read Only system and the “separate” volume containing my users, etc.
Regardless of which partition you are looking at, your ID does not have write permission to the root folder. ?Having such permissions could easily create a dangerous situation.
Is there anything wrong with having duplicate icons like this? I
I’m stuck back on High Sierra, so I can’t say, but I haven’t seen anything like that in any articles. s there some way I should try to delete one of them, and how would I know which one to delete. I’m assuming, actually, that the Mac wouldn’t let me do it, because the portion of Macintosh HD that contains the System IS read only.
Did you try turning off Locations in Finder Preferences and then turning it back on again? -- Bev in TX
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Re: Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps... require an app-specific password
Hi JR!
Thx so much for the detailed response.
I had no idea that needed to be done. There is nothing in the installation procedure that says anything about that. I’ll give this new procedure a try.
Again, Thx!
Bob Beckham
FCC Radiotelephone w/Radar P1-6S-2422
Late 2012 iMac 27” - 16 Gig RAM - 1TB SSD - macOS 10.15.3
2019 Harley Ultra Limited 114
1993 Allen MDS Theater 2
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On Mar 3, 2020, at 12:42 PM, JR via Groups.Io <Yahoo_jr@...> wrote:
Hi Bob, et al...
FYI your password is otherwise good, HOWEVER Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps logging into iCloud accounts requires an APPLICATION-SPECIFIC password that you have to generate on your Apple ID account page...
See here:
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
Howdy. I tried to find a reason for the two Mac HDs in Sidebar. No idea unless you dragged them there yourself. However, Right click each one and pick remove from Sidebar. I'd then restart. You can add one back to Sidebar but check your Finder Preferences>Sidebar and see what's checked and not checked first. Denver Dan p.s. One Google response on this topic was, "Is Macintosh HD a Virus?" Yeah. Right. On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:30:01 -0700, jimrobertson via Groups.Io wrote: For some reason, under “Favorites,” I have two iterations of
“Macintosh HD”, both read-only, but both exactly the same size:
Both are marked as “Read Only (lower L corner)” but I assume that
this is because the “Macintosh HD” designation applies to both the
Read Only system and the “separate” volume containing my users, etc.
Is there anything wrong with having duplicate icons like this? Is
there some way I should try to delete one of them, and how would I
know which one to delete. I’m assuming, actually, that the Mac
wouldn’t let me do it, because the portion of Macintosh HD that
contains the System IS read only.
Seems to me Apple hasn’t really figured out an easily understandable
way to describe the immutable and changeable portions of the boot
volume in the Finder UI in Catalina.
--
Jim Robertson
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
On Mar 3, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Jim Saklad via Groups.Io < jimdoc@...> wrote:
jim robertson wrote:For some reason, under “Favorites,” I have two iterations of “Macintosh HD”,?both read-only, but both exactly the same size
If I’m going to ask for help, I certainly should ask accurate questions. Sorry, I did not. As my screenshot indicates, the two iterations of "Macintosh HD” are listed as they are on your Mac, under “locations,” as is an icon for “JSR MacBook Pro,” and one for “Network.” (Within Network, in the column view,, there’s only one item, my Apple Time Capsule (which contains a 3 TB rotating platter Time Machine backup drive). If I look at my hardware with Disk Utility, there’s no “JSR MacBook Pro.” Instead there’s Apple SSD AP0512N Media, which contains Container disk1, which in turn contains Macintosh HD and Macintosh HD(data). disk Utility “says” that Container disk1 could be mounted on the desktop, but there’s no icon present for it on the computer by default, and if I hover my pointer over it in Disk Utility, a telltale says it can Mount, but that doesn’t happen if I click the mouse button while the cursor is located there..
The puzzle for me is why my “Macintosh HD” is listed twice, because both are really the same thing. Icon views of each of them show that each “contains” both the system files and user files; column views shows the same “read only” designation for the System, Library, and Users Folders, but within the “Users” folder, my own user is NOT listed as read only. Total available space is the same size for both iterations; I’m unable to get the Finder to calculate size of individual folders in the columnar views of what’s in either of them.
Another Catalina oddity that trying to sort this out has revealed is that each iteration of “Macintosh HD has both?
Macintosh HD\Applications
and
Macintosh HD\System\Applications folders?
(and neither of these is the ~\Applications Folder (which has a few things in it that were put there by a GoToMeeting Installer—not by me, manually).
Although all of the items in Macintosh HD\System\Applications are Apple apps, all of those applications are also listed as present in the Macintosh HD\Applications folder, which contains all my 3rd party applications as well, along with some things from Apple that would be considered productivity applications; e.g., Numbers, Pages, and Keynote.
--?
Jim Robertson
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Re: Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
jim robertson wrote: For some reason, under “Favorites,” I have two iterations of “Macintosh HD”,?both read-only, but both exactly the same size
In my Finder window, my hard drive partitions are listed only under “Locations”, below all the “Favorites”, and none are duplicates.
Both are marked as “Read Only (lower L corner)” but I assume that this is?because the “Macintosh HD” designation applies to both the Read Only system?and the “separate” volume containing my users, etc.
Firstly, I *do* understand what you refer to with the 2 volumes under Catalina.
Although the drive itself is listed as Read Only, “Users” and its contents, or “Home", are NOT Read Only, if I click on them in Favorites.
Also: The only way I would have ANY of my drive partitions listed under “Favorites” would be if I had dragged one there manually myself Is there anything wrong with having duplicate icons like this? Is there some way?I should try to delete one of them, and how would I know which one to delete.?I’m assuming, actually, that the Mac wouldn’t let me do it, because the portion?of Macintosh HD that contains the System IS read only.
Do you have a “Locations” section? Is your drive in it? Just one, or 2? Personally, I would drag the hard drive icon to locations, if it’s not already there, and remove both of it from favorites. I’m sure that both refer only to the normally-visible volume with most of your “stuff”, and not to the smaller, system-installed-only, volume.
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Re: Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps... require an app-specific password
On Mar 3, 2020, at 10:42 AM, JR via Groups.Io < Yahoo_jr@...> wrote:
Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps logging into iCloud accounts requires an APPLICATION-SPECIFIC password that you have to generate on your Apple ID account page…
I’ve never used Thunderbird, but this is the case as well for the BusyMac applications (BusyCal, Busy Contacts). At least for those apps, the publisher is VERY explicit, both in the documentation and in the dialogs that request creation of the App-specific password EXACTLY what this is and why it’s needed. Perhaps the resurrected Thunderbird (maybe its name should now be Phoenix?) is less clear about the reason for the additional password?
Again, I’ve not used Thunderbird, and I’m pleased enough with Mac Mail.app that I have no inclination to try it, so this is nothing more than speculation on my part.
--?
Jim Robertson
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Trip to the Apple Store. On my Things list.
?? Karen ? ?organizing my iMac to the Nines999
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On Mar 2, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Jim Saklad via Groups.Io < jimdoc@...> wrote:
KarenP wrote: I kept a careful eye on my iPad charge yesterday. Charged it up in the morning?to 100%. That held for a while, but once it started going down, it started going?down quickly. I was not on it for very long. Mostly just playing a few games of?solitaire, checking my email briefly, and my things software. By the time I went?to sleep, it was at 15%. I shut it down completely, as Jim suggested. In the?morning, simply opening it up again brought it to 12%. And from there, I could?actually see it going down one by one, within the space of just a few minutes. ?A?full charge on my iPad used to last me two or even three days. So this is?definitely unusual.
Aging batteries display certain characteristic behaviors, notably: 1. Their total capacity declines steadily. Yours might have 70% of its original capacity, or 50%, or less. So “100%” may be half as many milliamp-hours as when it was new.
2. They are less able to *retain* what charge they can hold.
The definitive solution is replace the battery, or replace the device.
Apple will sell you a refurbished current-model iPad Mini for $339, eligible for Applecare. On the other hand, you can get a refurbished?current-model iPad for about the same price. Amazon will sell you “renewed” older models for much less.
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Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps... require an app-specific password
From: Bob Beckham <mailto:rbeckhm@...?subject=Re:%20New%20Web%20Site%21>
I did try Thunderbird, but it couldn’t log into the iCloud account. Says my password is wrong. I’m assuming the mail password is the same as the Apple ID password. Correct?
=====
Hi Bob, et al...
FYI your password is otherwise good, HOWEVER Thunderbird and other 3rd party email apps logging into iCloud accounts requires an APPLICATION-SPECIFIC password that you have to generate on your Apple ID account page...
See here:
Write it down and keep it in your password app...
This is not a Thunderbird issue, it's Apple's security measure....
How to generate an app-specific password
1. Sign in to your Apple ID account page <>.
2. In the Security section, click Generate Password below App-Specific Passwords.
3. Follow the steps on your screen.
After you generate your app-specific password, enter or paste it into the password field of the app as you would normally.
===
Then once you have that, you need to configure Thunderbird with it.
I have this under my account setups:
IMAP information for the incoming mail server
??? Server name: imap.mail.me.com
??? SSL Required: Yes
??? If you see an error message when using SSL, try using TLS instead.
??? Port: 993
??? Username: This is usually the name part of your iCloud email address (for example, emilyparker, not emilyparker@...). If your email client can't connect to iCloud using just the name part of your iCloud email address, try using the full address.
??? Password: *App-specific password:?? xxxx-xxxx-xxx-xxxx*
SMTP information for the outgoing mail server
??? Server name: smtp.mail.me.com
??? SSL Required: Yes
??? If you see an error message when using SSL, try using TLS or STARTTLS instead.
??? Port: 587
??? SMTP Authentication Required: Yes
??? Username: Your full iCloud email address (for example, emilyparker@..., not emilyparker)
??? Password: *App-specific password:?? xxxx-xxxx-xxx-xxxx*
*===*
*JR
*
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I do use a password manager, and quite frequently, passwords for various Apple services tell me they are now wrong, and I have to arduously reset them. ?I don’t get it. I thought Apple ID was supposed to unify all your passwords for Apple services, including iCloud. ?Not true? ?This time, I’m really having a hard time fixing it. And of course, whenever I have managed to change the Apple ID, I’ve had to re-enter it on all devices. ?It’s a pain. ?Probably something I’m doing wrong, but too frequently have to go through this reset routine.
I’ve had the same experiences. Part of it was that, years ago, i used a different email address for Apple (back when the iTunes Store was new. So, some of my original Apple Music purchases (after the Napster guy took the plunge) were made with a totally different “identity,” and I’ve never gotten that straightened out!
--?
Jim Robertson
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On Mar 2, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Bill Castine <Bill.Castine@...> wrote:
Most likely not. At least my icloud mail password is not related to my Apple ID password.
If you use a password manager, look up your icloud Mail account password. Otherwise, you may have to log on in another app (such as Mail) and try to change your password. I do use a password manager, and quite frequently, passwords for various Apple services tell me they are now wrong, and I have to arduously reset them. I don’t get it. I thought Apple ID was supposed to unify all your passwords for Apple services, including iCloud. Not true? This time, I’m really having a hard time fixing it. And of course, whenever I have managed to change the Apple ID, I’ve had to re-enter it on all devices. It’s a pain. Probably something I’m doing wrong, but too frequently have to go through this reset routine. Daly
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Oddity in Finder window in Catalina
For some reason, under “Favorites,” I have two iterations of “Macintosh HD”, both read-only, but both exactly the same size: Both are marked as “Read Only (lower L corner)” but I assume that this is because the “Macintosh HD” designation applies to both the Read Only system and the “separate” volume containing my users, etc.
Is there anything wrong with having duplicate icons like this? Is there some way I should try to delete one of them, and how would I know which one to delete. I’m assuming, actually, that the Mac wouldn’t let me do it, because the portion of Macintosh HD that contains the System IS read only.
Seems to me Apple hasn’t really figured out an easily understandable way to describe the immutable and changeable portions of the boot volume in the Finder UI in Catalina.
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On Mar 2, 2020, at 5:32 PM, Bob Beckham via Groups.Io < rbeckhm@...> wrote:
I’m assuming the mail password is the same as the Apple ID password. ?Correct?
It usually is, but if you’ve had an Apple email account as far back as the domain name before there WAS iCloud, it’s entirely possible you set up a Mail.app Apple server account with a password that was not an Apple ID. So, you might try combing through your password manager to see if there are other passwords for mail that also are old, and also look in Apple’s own automatically generated password repository (in a “Keychain” folder (I’m not sure of the path to that folder in Catalina). And, it’s possible for one person to have more than one Apple ID.
To make certain it’s not an issue with Thunderbird rather than your Apple ID, you might try logging in to your Apple mail on the web, using what you have listed for your username/pw in Apple Mail.app.
--?
Jim Robertson
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Thanks!
I signed up for Apple Mail when I got my first iPhone many years ago. Can’t remember the PW I used. I just never needed to know it when moving from the various phones, iPads and now this iMac. I just entered my Apple ID pw and everything just seemed to work.
Yes, changing the pw usually requires knowing what the present one is . . . I’ll give that a try.
Thx again!
Bob Beckham
FCC Radiotelephone w/Radar P1-6S-2422
Late 2012 iMac 27” - 16 Gig RAM - 1TB SSD - macOS 10.15.3
2019 Harley Ultra Limited 114
1993 Allen MDS Theater 2
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On Mar 2, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Bill Castine <Bill.Castine@...> wrote:
Most likely not. At least my icloud mail password is not related to my Apple ID password.
If you use a password manager, look up your icloud Mail account password. Otherwise, you may have to log on in another app (such as Mail) and try to change your password.
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Jim Saklad
Bob Beckham
JR