That’s true but there is the fact that sometimes Apple adds new software features to support new hardware features (or software that relies on specific hardware to work). Apple DOES make money on those hardware purchases.
Dave
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On Oct 22, 2019, at 8:31 AM, jimrobertson via Groups.Io < jimrobertson@...> wrote:
If the only reason was "shiny new features” one can decide to use (or not), the choice would be simple, and the answer, at least for the last many years, would NOT be “so that Apple can make more money,” because the OS itself, year after year, is FREE to the user.
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Thanks, Otto! ?I agree with your comments. ?I can easily bottom-post from my iMac, but not so much from my iPad.
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On Oct 22, 2019, at 8:52 AM, Otto Nikolaus via Groups.Io <otto.nikolaus@...> wrote:
? On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 at 15:37, jimrobertson via Groups.Io <jimrobertson= [email protected]> wrote:
There is a third party app which will download all content from a Yahoo Group. It's Windows-only, and I don't know if you can upload?that same content to?.
Otto, are we now changing to Top Posting? The last several posts are in the Top Posted format, and that’s a VERY old debate, but if I were allowed a vote it would obviously be for bottom-posting, because it preseves the essence of an email conversation. It’s trivially more difficult to use, but eminently more readable.
We have never had rules about that here. My preference is for top-posting, so I can see the latest?reply immediately without scrolling through stuff I've already read, but if others bottom-post first?I follow that to avoid jumbling the sequence (as here).?
What is *much* more important is that replies quote at least part of the message they are responding to!
Otto?
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On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 at 15:37, jimrobertson via Groups.Io <jimrobertson= [email protected]> wrote:
There is a third party app which will download all content from a Yahoo Group. It's Windows-only, and I don't know if you can upload?that same content to?.
Otto, are we now changing to Top Posting? The last several posts are in the Top Posted format, and that’s a VERY old debate, but if I were allowed a vote it would obviously be for bottom-posting, because it preseves the essence of an email conversation. It’s trivially more difficult to use, but eminently more readable.
We have never had rules about that here. My preference is for top-posting, so I can see the latest?reply immediately without scrolling through stuff I've already read, but if others bottom-post first?I follow that to avoid jumbling the sequence (as here).?
What is *much* more important is that replies quote at least part of the message they are responding to!
Otto?
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There is a third party app which will download all content from a Yahoo Group. It's Windows-only, and I don't know if you can upload?that same content to?.
Otto, are we now changing to Top Posting? The last several posts are in the Top Posted format, and that’s a VERY old debate, but if I were allowed a vote it would obviously be for bottom-posting, because it preseves the essence of an email conversation. It’s trivially more difficult to use, but eminently more readable.
Thanks so much,
Jim Robertson
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On Oct 21, 2019, at 7:05 PM, swarfmaster < fosterjp@...> wrote:
I had a look at the software which will run under Catalina on my machine and the list was staggering!? Why would I want to go through the hassle and likely expense to do that?
When I read your post, I inferred (and still do) that you meant to type “software which will NOT run under Catalina,” which, if that’s what you meant, would require a very different answer. That, of course, requires addressing why Apple releases new operating systems.
If the only reason was "shiny new features” one can decide to use (or not), the choice would be simple, and the answer, at least for the last many years, would NOT be “so that Apple can make more money,” because the OS itself, year after year, is FREE to the user.
However, in Catalina, there are two elements (at least) that make the choice far more difficult. One is that Apple is attempting to “harden” the OS against attackers, and part of that is to make the OS itself reside in a read-only partition that looks to the user as though it’s still part of a boot volume, but under the surface it’s not. That makes things very difficult for companies that create backup software. For example SuperDuper!, which many of us use to create bootable clones of our boot volumes, just released its first public beta of a Catalina-compatible version of its application, a few weeks after public release of the new OS itself.
Second, Apple has chosen to withdraw support for applications that run in a 32-bit address space. Personally, I’ve not seen anything written by programmers that discuss WHY they would NEED to do that. An (admittedly poor) analogy would be deciding whether or not pedestrians and cyclists could walk and ride on interstate highways. Most of us would agree quickly that would be a bad idea, both for the strollers and the 16-wheelers, but whether the presence of 32-bit application-running capability makes things any more difficult for the creators or users of 32-bit OSes and applications I have no answer for.
And, there’s another change that forces users to make decisions about their software even if they DON’T upgrade to Catalina. To make its web browser more difficult to attack, Apple has removed the ability for developers to create “extensions” that run inside Safari. That’s forced users of programs that rely on those extensions; e.g., 1Password, among others, to store their passwords somewhere else or use a different browser that still permits extensions, e.g., Chrome, if they don’t wish to upgrade (at cost) their 1Password application.
Jim Robertson
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I just discovered a lively discussion on TidBits talk that clarifies (at least for me) what’s actually happening to Yahoo Groups. Apparently, they’re not really going away. What IS going away is the ability for users to access them on the Web. I’d wager that most of us access MacSupportCentral via email, and that most of us have abided by the rule that we don’t include attachments to our email posts. If that were all there was to a group (a method for collecting and sharing email messages), the group could continue. Some posters in the TidBits discussion suggest two motives for Yahoo’s move to corral all the group discussions into emali:
- To make it easier for Yahoo or its corporate parent to harvest the traded email messages for targeted advertising purposes (apparently it’s harder to do that with content posted directly to the web interface).
- To make it possible for Yahoo’s parent, a company called “Oath,” that I’d never heard of before, to get its Apps available on Samsung smartphones (I have NO idea whether that’s the case having made fewer than a dozen or so forefinger stabs on Android devices in my entire life).
<>
Jim Robertson
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Re: Prudence (was Re: Creating etc... )
#Upgrading
Jim:
I'm following your advice and waiting for some time. I tend to not want to "fix" things that aren't broken and hence use obsolete Macs in my office/home if they still meet intended use objectives. I've nothing against Catalina, but I've also no reason to switch from El Cap and Sierra OS at this time.
John Mills
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There is a third party app which will download all content from a Yahoo Group. It's Windows-only, and I don't know if you can upload?that same content to . <>
Otto
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 at 01:30, Brent via Groups.Io <whodo678= [email protected]> wrote: I'll give you 110 reasons, it cost $110 dollars. Reason #111, very few people use the archives and most is outdated.
#112, some member didn't have access depending upon how they joined yahoo groups, so they must not be critical.
I joined using an email, not by joining yahoo groups and then joining MSC. I've been a member since 2011 and have never has access to the archives. $110 is about 50 cents per active member. I am guessing that is about $25 per user of the archives.
On the oldest online MUG, the went with the option of taking donations. It is also one of the larger yahoo groups if you take the yahoo stats verbatim. So far 86 active members have moved over, and taken in about $50 in donations.
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I keep all messages from my groups and can search?them if required. I doubt I'm the only?one.
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 at 00:32, Dave Kelly via Groups.Io <drkelly= [email protected]> wrote: Yeah, 110 good reasons. The group would have to upgrade to a premium group which costs $110. I don’t think it is worth the money to do that. Most of the information that has been discussed in the past 20 years is either obsolete now or searchable on the internet and the rest can be asked about and answered by group members.
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Fair comment Brent and Dave. I did not know there was a charge to get ones own group posts out of Yahoo. I doubt many groups will go for that.
Thanks
Karl W
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Jim and others:
PLEASE, when replying to a post, QUOTE some pertinent text from that message so we know what “hassle and likely expense” refers to without digging back through the thread.
Thanks!
Dave
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I had a look at the software which will run under Catalina on my machine and the list was staggering! Why would I want to go through the hassle and likely expense to do that?
Jim Foster
Santa Barbara
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I had a look at the software which will run under Catalina on my machine and the list was staggering!? Why would I want to go through the hassle and likely expense to do that?
I looked at it also.
My first pass was deleting a lot of apps that I no longer remembered, or that I tried once but never again.
My second pass was going to many websites to look for 64-bit updates, and downloading the ones I found.
Third pass was deciding which of the remainder I wanted enough to keep that I would wait to see if an update eventually came out, and deleting the rest.
Wasn’t that bad.
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Jim,
I had a look at the software which will run under Catalina on my machine and the list was staggering!? Why would I want to go through the hassle and likely expense to do that?
Jim Foster
Santa Barbara
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On Oct 21, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Dave Kelly via Groups.Io < drkelly@...> wrote:
Your 8G ram should be adequate. More ram may help but it might not make any difference. Is it faster loading if you don't have any other apps running?
It kind of sounds like your Finance software might be trying to load its database into ram (for faster access?). maybe not.
Just now I looked at the same task (launching SEE Finance) on my late 2016 15” Quad Core i7 MacBook Pro 2.7 GHz , 16 GBytes RAM, 512 GB internal SSD. The program loaded completely in 10 seconds, and occupied about 850 MB of RAM when it was finished loading. That’s a comparable space to what’s committed on the iMac, where my swap file is twice the size and the total available RAM is half as much.
So, I suspect more RAM might help. I’ll contact the developer for verification or other ideas.
Jim Robertson
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It is always good practice to make a BOOTABLE backup immediately before upgrading the OS. Catalina makes many changes and does things differently. I’ve upgraded my iMac (late 2012) and haven’t had any issue. However, I DO have a bootable backup just in case. So far so good. Most people seem to have no problem. Some people DO have issues of some sort. Having a good bootable backup is great insurance. With a good bootable backup, you can safely do the upgrade to Catalina and see how it works for you. If anything goes sideways, you can always simply restore or boot from the backup and you are back to where you were. A mere inconvenience as opposed to a possible disaster. By chance if you don’t know how to make a bootable backup, inquire here and there are several folks that would be happy to walk you through the process. It has been mentioned several times. It really is easy. Have fun! On Oct 21, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Debbi <djmcneer@...> wrote:
After reading the many messages of Catalina issues, I’m reluctant to pull the trigger. I’ve never made a back-up copy of my current OS prior to installing an update. I understand that some applications won’t work as they currently do (have been getting that warning for some time now), but I also understand that I can upgrade some and substitute others. I think I can work around that. Bob ’The Beckster’ Beckham FCC RadioTelephone Licence P1-6S-2422 w/Radar endorsement. Apple iMac 27” Late 2012 - macOS 10.15.0 - RAM 16 Gig 2016 Harley-Davidson FLHTKL 1993 Allen MDS Theater 2
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I'll give you 110 reasons, it cost $110 dollars. Reason #111, very few people use the archives and most is outdated.
#112, some member didn't have access depending upon how they joined yahoo groups, so they must not be critical.
I joined using an email, not by joining yahoo groups and then joining MSC. I've been a member since 2011 and have never has access to the archives. $110 is about 50 cents per active member. I am guessing that is about $25 per user of the archives.
On the oldest online MUG, the went with the option of taking donations. It is also one of the larger yahoo groups if you take the yahoo stats verbatim. So far 86 active members have moved over, and taken in about $50 in donations.
Brent
Mac user since 1998
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On Oct 21, 2019, at 4:21 PM, Karl Winkelmann wrote: Is there a good reason to not transfer the groups archived post? I did not see any discussion about this.
Two other groups I am in have transferred all their posts; 15 and 13 years respectively. Surely space is not an issue and being able to occasionally consult older posts can be useful and may avoid re-asking the same question.
Karl W
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Yeah, 110 good reasons. The group would have to upgrade to a premium group which costs $110. I don’t think it is worth the money to do that. Most of the information that has been discussed in the past 20 years is either obsolete now or searchable on the internet and the rest can be asked about and answered by group members.
Dave
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On Oct 21, 2019, at 5:24 PM, Karl Winkelmann <ww2censor@...> wrote:
Is there a good reason to not transfer the groups archived post? I did not see any discussion about this.
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Is there a good reason to not transfer the groups archived post? I did not see any discussion about this.
Two other groups I am in have transferred all their posts; 15 and 13 years respectively. Surely space is not an issue and being able to occasionally consult older posts can be useful and may avoid re-asking the same question.
Karl W
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Enjoy some New Mexico chili and try not to get blown away in the winds we’ve been experiencing!
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On Oct 21, 2019, at 4:12 PM, Daniel Settles <denver1.dan1@...> wrote:
? Howdy from Santa Fe?
iTunes goes away but not your music. All 25,000 songs, mostly ripped CDs, on my ?ac are still there and work.?
[|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|][|] iSent from iDan's iPad Air 2019
On Oct 21, 2019, at 7:27 AM, Pat Taylor via Groups.Io <pat412@...> wrote:
? That’s what I’ve read in the tech press, but have not yet upgraded to Catalina myself. ?Here’s one article on the subject:
Pat On Oct 21, 2019, at 7:19 AM, Otto Nikolaus via Groups.Io <otto.nikolaus@...> wrote:
Surely all your ripped (transferred from CD) music will remain in Music > iTunes (or wherever you keep it) after the upgrade? Can someone confirm?
Otto I’m a lazy MacBook Air user. And I’ve always trusted that system upgrades are going to improve my computing experience. I blithely click on the Install, it does its think, and I haven’t lost any functionality so far.
After reading the many messages of Catalina issues, I’m reluctant to pull the trigger. I’ve never made a back-up copy of my current OS prior to installing an update. I understand that some applications won’t work as they currently do (have been getting that warning for some time now), but I also understand that I can upgrade some and substitute others. I think I can work around that.
I’ve learned that all of the music I laboriously transferred from CD to iTunes will be gone (only iTunes purchases will transfer), but I mostly use streaming services for music now, so I don’t think that will be too hard to handle.
Here’s my issue: I’ve Googled and checked Canon’s website to see if my MX922 printer will be compatible and I guess I just don’t know enough about what I’m reading to figure it out.
I’ve updated my iPhone Xr and my iPad mini, with no issues. It’s really just the laptop-to-printer I’m worried about.
At this point, I continue to postpone the Catalina install, only because of the printer. Do any of you have a Canon MX922, and does it still work with Catalina?
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Dave Kelly
Pat Taylor
jsm5320432
Jim Saklad
Bob Beckham
Brent