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Re: TL922 transformer and 50 Hz formulas
craxd
I forgot about Hsu being overseas. He would have a 50 Hz transformer
and the formula I showed was for 60 Hz at 12 kilogauss. The one for 50 Hz is; TPV = 5.82 / a a = 0.206 x sq rt of P P = ( a / 0.206 )^2 a = Core area in square inches TPV = Turns per volt P = Power in Volt Amperes or Watts if load is resistive. Sorry about that. I use 60 Hz so much I forget talking about 50 Hz all together. Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@...> wrote: higher. Since the turns are higher, the resistance will go up 1.2 timesaccount for it so as to acchieve the same power output.has to be stepped up even larger to increase the wire diameter. If the50 Hz transformer for both 50 Hz and 60 Hz. The plus would be for 60Hz users as it would run cooler with a lower flux density. This wouldto be modified between the two.50 highhz. 68 ohm sec DC resistance. The drake L4B plate xfmr has a 10 |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
FRANCIS CARCIA
Will, untrue all you need to do is make the core bigger to reduce the flux at 50 Hz. Volts per turn stay the same. Wire will be a bit longer due to bigger window. So bigger core makes more resistance when the 50 hz transformer is at 60 hz but core loss is very slightly less. Whenever you make the core bigger you can get away with lessturns of?wire for the same flux density. Double the core area=?1/2 the turns for constant flux craxd wrote:
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Re: TL922 transformer and other
FRANCIS CARCIA
That is exactly why 400 Hz. is used in aircraft. but then some nut decided to do 270 VDC and kill people working on them. All to save the constant speed generator shaft interface. A 50 Hz. transformer on 60 Hz will have lower magnetizing current but higher resistance. It might transfer less?peak power. I tried to make a transformer?with the same efficiency at 50 and 60 Hz once without changing taps?and could not do it. I came close though. pentalab wrote:
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Re: about R divider in capacitor bank filter . Here's the fix.
On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:26 AM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:We have probably sold 13 or 14 1k-unit boxes of Matsushita 100k¦¸, 3wwrote: MOF resistors and none have reportedly failed. Me thinks you worryeth too much, brother James. ... R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...>
wrote: reduce heating but this will reduce the output voltage due to turns ratio change, gfz ### agreed. So, in essence... to properly run a xfmr on 50 hz.... you require MORE turns on the pri... and to keep the turns ratio the SAME.... you will also have to add MORE turns on the sec..... which the TL-922 may well allready have. The UK/JA/ZL/VK have 50 hz power, so unless the NA version is 60 hz only.... I'm guessing any oversea's 922 xfmr's will run just fine on either freq. ### Too bad somebody way back when, didn't decide on something higher.... like 70-80-90-100 hz power..... or even higher.. like 200 hz. These plate xfmr's, blower's, and eveything else could have been made smaller.. and more eff. ### This is the problem with setting standards with 'new' technology... they get outdated... fast. Later.....Jim VE7RF |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
FRANCIS CARCIA
Lower frequency you need more primary turns so a higher tap to reduce heating but this will reduce the output voltage due to turns ratio change,?gfz
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pentalab wrote:
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Re: GI 7B
Mike\(W5UC\) & Kathy\(K5MWH\)
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýGood Morning Noel & All: ? I have started construction on a pair of GI-7b¡¯s for 6 meters, but 6 mtrs cooled and 160 Mtrs got ready to come on for the winter.? You can see my progress, or lack thereof on my web page. ? 73, Mike, W5UC
From:
ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of vk4hr ? First post from a new member and already asking
questions. |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Hsu" <Jbenson@...> wrote:
#### HSU.... as far as I know.... from memeory... the plate xfmr in a TL-922 is rated at aprx 1.2 KVA CCS. The RL Drake plate xfmr, used in the L4/L4-B/ L-7 is also rated at 1.2 KVA CCS. #### In the case of the RL drake xfmr.... that rating is for 60 hz only..... and like Will sez.... it MUST be de-rated for 50 hz. Several VK/ZL's I have spoken too over the years have complained of over heating the RL drake xfmr, when run on 50 hz. ### Dunno about the TL-922 xfmr. On my old yaesu FL-2100 B [1977] , it had primary taps for 100/120 200/240.... in Japan they use 100/200 V and 50 hz. So In that case, I'd assume the yaesu plate xfmr would run on 50 hz. ### IF the TL-922 xfmr has pri taps for 100/200v.... you can asume it will run ok on 50 hz. IF it only has taps for 120/240... then asume it's 60 hz only. It seems to me that the TL-922 is popular in the UK... and I believe they use 220 v 50 hz. ### In normal operation... the TL-922 xfmr would be good for 600 w output RTTY/ FM CCS..... and 1200 w out pep on ssb.... and maybe a little less on CW. ### I agree with Will. You can't go by weight alone. Case in point, the Hammond 795 series plate xfmr's weigh in at 80 lbs [36 kg] , are rated for 2.2 kva CCS.... and run VERY hot when used in a C input filter.... and when running 1900w PEP output from the linear. ### In the case of the Hammond, it was a high reactance type, with a center tap, designed for tube rectifier's... and had a high 68 ohm sec DC resistance. The drake L4B plate xfmr has a 10 ohm DC sec... is made for a C input filter.. and is of the LOW reatance type.... the TL-922 and the SB-220 both have 10 ohm dc resistance secondaries. ### These Peter Dahl hypersil C core plate xfmr's flat out won't blow up, or overheat, doesn't matter what you do to em. They are either the most underated things, or the greatest things since sliced bread... take ur pick. Later... Jim VE7RF |
Re: about R divider in capacitor bank filter . Here's the fix.
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
wrote: wounds. ######## I"M MOT USING WIRE WOUNDS !!! ### Not reliable enough for me. Just one MOF reistor out of a2500 > UF @ 450 V lytics don't got off like firecracker's string of 24-30 has to open up... and it's gonna leave one expensive mess to clean up. Theloose. [assuming caps are no more than 75% of their v rating] allone cap with the bad R will be almost maxed out. blowing up. The heat would be zip... per resistor.then if anything opened up.... no chance of all ur capsin parallel... PER cap, would be the ultimate solution..... CD brand 10 A CCS ripple current rated caps I got NEW, by the case########### Here's my problem Rich.... Those 2500 Uf @ 450 V EACH... in single lot quantities. I have 72 of em... and will beload are listed at an unreal price tag.... like $100.00 using em in groups of 24. I got em dirt cheap... they all tested good, when checked on the bench. I would be just pissed if they started exploding cuz of even the remotest chance of one resistor lead opening. ### You still don't get it ! I'm NOT using wirewounds !! I don't trust these MOF's either. My other concern with 24-30 x 100 K MOF's is.... they don't draw enough bleeder current to swamp out the typ leakage current of a string of caps. safety ##### Should be the same as 100 K MOF's... about 500 V.diode, rvs connected across eacg lytic] is to parallel 6 x 300 KWhat is the V-rating and P rating of the 300k resistors? on resistor'sthat one cap. Total diss is 53 W. Each of the 144 wattwould only dissipate .37 w. Heck, with 6 x 150 K normal Vfor each of the 144 resistor's. 300K /6per cap is 333 V [74% of the 450 V max rating]. With 6 x openedx 150 K resistor's across each cap.... and say one of the 6 of story.up.... V across that one cap will increase to 400 V.......well R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 |
Re: Teflon vs Delrin...... + "safety choke" info
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@...> wrote:
I think they more or less took the suggestion from a plasticspeddler saying that Delrin would for sure work in this application. I'll have to look up the difference in the D factor between Delrin and say Teflon, etc. I have the Modern Plastics Encyclopedia here, I've just not looked through it in a while. ### I looked this up months ago. Seems to me, the difference between the D factor between Delrin [Delin is sold under the trade name of "Polypenco"] and Teflon was astronomical. Teflon comes in solid rods, comes in any diam u want. After hearing about one too many horror stories about Delrin... I said.. lets go with Teflon... esp for making the home made plate chokes. [big one is 180 uh... small one is 45 uh, both are wound on 1" diam solid teflon] We also used 1" diam solid teflon to make the 45 uh ..."safety choke". Every plastic shop 'expert' I deal with hasn't a clue about their products and RF. The best they can usually do is just hand you the "data sheet". ### another alternative is hollow teflon tubing... usually 1/8" thick... or thicker. My buddy found a source for this hollow teflon tubing in Quebec some where... and if I find out where... I'll let every one know. It was a LOT cheaper than the solid stuff. The end user would insert a tight fitting plug in the bottom... so the plug could be tapped and drilled with the usual 1/4-20/27 threads. The solid teflon stuff is not that expensive... fairly cheap and sold by the foot... not much more than Delrin... which I would NOT trust for some applications. ### some of my buddies have had great success with Delrin in plate chokes,, and standoffs, safety chokes etc... some have said the tops of the chokes would burn off. ### Beware... a LOT of these old and new amp projects[plus commercially made stuff] will use plane jane 2.5 mh rf choke as the "safety choke" wired between 50 ohm output and chassis on a PI-L.... and between load cap and chassis on a simple PI-net. I measured a bunch of em... and some are as high as 40 ohms dc resistance. In one case, a contester buddy of mine, had the plate block cap short out.... and the safety choke blew into a million pieces! I wouldn't trust ANY of these mickey mouse pi- wound chokes as "safety chokes". Don't believe me..... wire one between the B+ and B-.... [via a heavy duty vac relay]... out in ur back yard.... hit the switch.. and watch the back yard blow up ! ### Then I noticed all the big boys use a simple 40-50 uh solenoid choke... wound with 16-18ga magnet wire. Henry radio does this on the 8-K... and creative electronics [now amp systems inc] also does the same... ditto with harris, etc. What else that will work as a.. "safety choke" is 10-18 ga magnet wire, wound on a 1.6" torroid. In all cases, you are looking for 35-50 uh... and NO series resonances in bands of interest. The 45 uh chokes we use on 1" diam solid teflon, are wound with 18 ga magnet wire... and easily handle the 8 KV on the 135 uf cap filter + 50 ohm, 450 W glitch R + HV fuse. In once case, the strap from the C1 vac tune cap was not even finger tight, flopped over.. and was only 1/8" away from the parasitic suppressor assy... arced... and 8 KV went through the entire PI NET.... nothing happened.. as the 45 uh safety choke simply shorted the B+ to the chassis.... from there it went through the PARALLELED 1 kv- 6A diodes [800A surge rated for the pair]... which are installed between chassis and B- completing the loop... and bam... HV fuse pops in <2 msecs. ### we have tested this 45 uh safety choke a 1/2 doz times now.... it has no visible signs of deformation. ### I think Will thought they were using Micarta... but allWhat material is used now? Micarta I have seen. [I use a lot of it] is usually bright red. I have never seen Micarta in anything but red. ### I also noticed in cat #8, SSON had these deluxe new, custom made for em... 500 pf- 9 kv air variables.... supposedly for tuners... well made... and about $115 If I remember correctly. Later.........Jim VE7RF |
Re: GI 7B
Hi Noel
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I built a 2m amplifier a couple of years ago using a pair of GI-7b triodes. It has been absolutely trouble free except for one flash over when I accidently grossly over-drove it. That took out the HT glitch resistor as well as the transformer primary fuse but both tubes survived and are still in operation. The amp has been used (and won) several 2m contests here in the UK and I regularly run it using WSJT which is a high duty cycle mode. 25 watts of drive gives me the UK legal limit of 400 watts out. The maximum I get out of this pair on 2m with about 1700V on them is 700 watts. This amplifier is online at BTW I wouldn't have dared post that link in the old Amps group! I'd have been torn to shreds!! But I know in here any criticism will be helpful and positive. The tubes only cost me UK 15.00 each including postage from Russia. It's difficult to beat that for low cost. I'm thinking along similar lines to you now and may also build a HF RF deck. I wouldn't hesitate to use the same tubes again. Their slightly bigger brother the GI-46 is supposed to give more power out. It's a bit more expensive but would also be worth considering. 73 Paul G4DCV vk4hr wrote:
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Transformer Calculator
craxd
All,
I'm writing a program to calculate the numbers on power transformers. I named it Maxwell, as I figured he was the first to come up with the formulas himself. I uploaded the pics to the photo directory for this group. I will eventually have this for sale as shareware in the near future. Are there any thing you would like to see added to it? All comments are welcome. Thanks, Will |
Re: GI 7B
Tony King - W4ZT
Noel,
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Please see this page for lots of links to both retrofits and homebrew amps using the GI-7B including one in progress by Bob,VK3ZL: <> 73, Tony W4ZT vk4hr wrote: First post from a new member and already asking questions. |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
craxd
Hsu,
That formula is for 60 Hz, I forgot to add that. The difference between 50 Hz and 60 Hz transformer size is a factor of 1.2. A 50 Hz transformers core will be 1.2 times larger than a 60 Hz for an equivelant power output. Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@...> wrote: core area providing they have the wire sized right. You use the corearea (a) in square inches. A hint to make it easy to measure is thesquare inches. Theres 2.54 centimeters in a lineal inch. To convert into |
Re: TL922 transformer and other
craxd
Hsu,
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There's a short formula one can use to estimate the power by the core area providing they have the wire sized right. You use the core area (a) in square inches. A hint to make it easy to measure is the outside leg of a transformer is most always 1/2 as wide as the core width. So multiply the leg width by 2 to find the core width. Next, multiply that by the irons stack thickness and that will give the area. The formula works with 12 kilogauss. If they're running it higher, the core could be smaller for the same power rating. You'll have to convert centimeters into inches as the formula is for square inches. Theres 2.54 centimeters in a lineal inch. To convert into square centimeters, multiply square inches by 6.45. a = (leg width in inches x 2) x cores stack thickness in inches P = ( a / 0.1725 )^2 This will get you close. Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Hsu" <Jbenson@...> wrote:
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Re: TL922 transformer and other
Hsu
Thanks,Will
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Could tell me the power rating of TL922 HV transformer? Thanks again! 73! Hsu ----- Original Message -----
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Re: NEW PIX
craxd
Jim,
Did you ever try paper tubing for the chimneys? It's the same kraft paper they use in transformer insulation. No hotter than a tube gets with the blower running, it wont hurt anything. This stuff is made in 10 foot lengths but can be bought shorter through paper suppliers that make and sell cardboard boxes, etc. A company named U-Line has a good selection of large diameter tubing that would make a good chimney. A compamy who makes the tubing is Precision Paper Tube. They make the tubing used in inductors, etc. Another way is to fabricate one from fish paper, or the blue-grey stuff used again as transformer insulation. It has a clay added to it. It runs well as a chimney and one can roll it up as a cone shape so its wider at the bottom as in some chimneys. The last is to make a fiberglass chimney. One can buy the fiberglass sheet and the resin from Sears and some auto-body suppliers. Sears carries it in their boat specialties catalog. You'd have to make a form for say a cone shape out of teflon so the resin wont stick to it. An aluminum form might work to using a release agent. Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote: how we paralleled the 3 x wafers of the Model 85 switch. Wewafers. that way. Stock, they only come with one common per rotor... grabbingpage] pix page... shows the HB 1/2" tubing coil.. smaller ID [3"] used80- 60-40-30-20-17-15m.... NO 10/12m.pumped through em........ surplus $4.00 each. 12 vdc. Ipreviously posted the url for both these surplus 12 vdc DPDT relays... and |
Re: NEW PIX
FRANCIS CARCIA
Jim, Cool idea on the u channel. That will also be a good heat sink for the contacts. gfz ? pentalab wrote:
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NEW PIX
pentalab
Gents
I just posted some new pix.[page-3 of my pix page]..... depicts how we paralleled the 3 x wafers of the Model 85 switch. We used 1" wide CU strap... x .022" thick... formed into a..."U". Each strap was formed on some scrap square material..... forget the precise width... believe it was aprx 3/8" wide. This allows for maintaining the 13 KV air gap between adjacent contacts. Using 1" wide strap... in a "U", also allows for zip stray L through the 3 x wafer's... and also will handle literally globs of RF current. Wafer at back end... closest to tank coil, we call wafer #1.... this is where the various coil taps terminate. The wafer closest to the front panel/knob, is wafer #3. The output of this switch is on wafer #3..... which of course, feeds both the vac load cap and the low freq end of the huge Multronics Jumbo tank coil. This "in on wafer #1.. and out on wafer #3" allows for an almost even RF current sharing, between the 3 x paralleled wafers. This same scheme has also been done on a model #88 switch. Just make sure you use "double commons" on all 3 x wafers.. on any of these series of switch's. The double commons allows grabbing the central rotor hub on BOTH sides.... handles WAY more RF that way. Stock, they only come with one common per rotor... grabbing the rotor on the top side only. Skip Coleman at Multi-tech Industries supplied me with all the bits and pieces I needed for my model 85 and 88 switch's. There is also a pix depicting the "double commons" portion of the switch... [page 2 of pix page] The next pix just shows a close up of the surplus [$20.00] Multronics 14 uh tank coil model MI-14 [it actually measures 12.2 uh] It came with just one multronics 1/2" tubing clamp. A friendly machinist made a bunch more for us... virtual carbon copies too ! Good thing too... since Multronics wanted $50.00 for EACH tubing clamp ! ....ouch. Taps from the triple wafer bandswitch to the Multronics coils, etc... was done using 1" wide flat strap x .022" thick.... zip stray inductance.... even though most of the taps were very long. Else where on the pix page... shows the HB 1/2" tubing coil.. smaller ID [3"] used for 20-17-15m.... it was added to the HF end of the 12.2 uh Multronics coil....which has a huge ID to it. Tapped for 160-80- 60-40-30-20-17-15m.... NO 10/12m. The last new pix, shows the 1 in 9 out 15 kw remote ant switch... from a different angle. The strap is all 3/4" wide x .022" thick... spaced aprx 5/16"... which gives us 50 ohms. Although the DPDT relays are rated for just 277 Vac... they hi - pot tested to 3 kv..... and have had as much as 17 kw pumped through em........ surplus $4.00 each. 12 vdc. I previously posted the url for both these surplus 12 vdc DPDT relays... and also the 3 x pole contactor's [with 220 v coil]. Later........ Jim VE7RF |
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