Re: LCML+L VM/SP reliability (Who you gonna call?)
#LCM-L
On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 04:10 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
Is it possible to get access to this system?
?
Guest access is available. Just connect a 3270 session to?tty.livingcomputers.org:24 and logon with one of the 6 guest accounts. I don't know about access to a regular personal virtual machines. Cheers, Rene FERLAND, Montreal
|
Re: LCML+L VM/SP reliability (Who you gonna call?)
#LCM-L
Is it possible to get access to this system?
Please and?thank you.
Bertram Moshier
On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 17:59 Drew Derbyshire < swhobbit@...> wrote: Since previous messages on the topic, oddly enough, VM/SP 5 at LCM+L ( ) has now been up 23 days continously.? (I hope I don't jinx it).
I am now checking it daily at the beginning of the (West coast) day.
-ahd-
|
Re: LCML+L VM/SP reliability (Who you gonna call?)
#LCM-L
Since previous messages on the topic, oddly enough, VM/SP 5 at LCM+L ( tty.livingcomputers.org:24 ) has now been up 23 days continously.? (I hope I don't jinx it).
I am now checking it daily at the beginning of the (West coast) day.
-ahd-
|
Drive Interrupt button using Hercules?
Hello,
Many moon ago, I wrote programs to write CCW strings to various devices, including tape, DASD, CTCA, etc.
I remember having to run into the machine room and press the drive interrupt button.? Turns out from time to time my programs (during development) wrote CCW DASD strings that ended up in an infinite loop.? It was good to be the lead systems developer.? I'd catch these things quickly and handle them.??
I decided to move my mini-disks from the page and/or spool drvies.? For some reason the prior system developer felt the drives for those working to run the data center should be on the same drive as VM's drives.? I changed not only mine but everyone elses minidisks off of page, spool, etc drives.? I spread them across all controllers and channels.? Performance improved!
Bertram Moshier / WB8ERT
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Well, it did stop the paper eject....
...and since all the systems in my last shop (multi-mega-complex) were interconnected on the power-off
it would make for a very large, very quiet room.? ? on two-floors.
/s/ Bill Turner, wb4alm
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12/18/22 08:42, Fran Hensler wrote: This reminds me oof an incident circa 1969. We had a 1403 printer and you
may remember carriage control tapes.
Well a student operator changed forms but failed to replace the carriage
control tape. So paper started shooting out.
The student did not know how to stop it so he hit the power button on the
CPU.
/Fran Hensler at Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania USA for 52 years
RockFox@...
"Yes, Virginia, there is a Slippery Rock"
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
This reminds me oof an incident circa 1969. We had a 1403 printer and you
may remember carriage control tapes.
Well a student operator changed forms but failed to replace the carriage
control tape. So paper started shooting out.
The student did not know how to stop it so he hit the power button on the
CPU.
/Fran Hensler at Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania USA for 52 years
RockFox@...
"Yes, Virginia, there is a Slippery Rock"
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of cjar1950 via groups.io Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 5:53 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [h390-vm] It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss There is always a UPS to help with this issue. However they are not idiot proof. I will always remember getting a call from a London station, with a potential application fault. When the customer was asked to advise what the was on the monitor said, "Nothing". When asked to press a certain command to check the date/time.. the response was "I can't see the keyboard - we have a power cut". I then asked what lights were on the UPS -"None - we switched it off, as it was making a horrible bleeping noise when the power went off". Oops how sad. :--( Chris. -- <cjar1950@...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 07:13:59 -0000 "Dave Wade" <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote: -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 17 December 2022 23:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a
power loss
On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would
properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the
host was rebooted?
Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that
could be done.
What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because".
There are multiple versions windows. Home re-boots because it is aimed at
plebs who never applied updates resulting in windows botnets. Pro is controllable. I have pro an all of my machines. Never get an uncontrolled re-boot. However, the subject says power loss, not random re-boot, and those do happen....
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
There is always a UPS to help with this issue. However they are not idiot proof. I will always remember getting a call from a London station, with a potential application fault. When the customer was asked to advise what the was on the monitor said, "Nothing". When asked to press a certain command to check the date/time.. the response was "I can't see the keyboard - we have a power cut". I then asked what lights were on the UPS -"None - we switched it off, as it was making a horrible bleeping noise when the power went off". Oops how sad. :--( Chris. -- <cjar1950@...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 07:13:59 -0000 "Dave Wade" <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote: -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 17 December 2022 23:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power
loss
On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would
properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host
was rebooted?
Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that could be done.
What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because". There are multiple versions windows. Home re-boots because it is aimed at plebs who never applied updates resulting in windows botnets.
Pro is controllable. I have pro an all of my machines. Never get an uncontrolled re-boot.
However, the subject says power loss, not random re-boot, and those do happen....
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 17 December 2022 23:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power
loss
On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would
properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host
was rebooted?
Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that could be done.
What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because". There are multiple versions windows. Home re-boots because it is aimed at plebs who never applied updates resulting in windows botnets. Pro is controllable. I have pro an all of my machines. Never get an uncontrolled re-boot. However, the subject says power loss, not random re-boot, and those do happen....
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
I created a service (runs under systemctl) which starts Multics under its dps8m emulator, running it under tmux, and which shuts it down cleanly when Linux is shutting down.
Starting it is relatively easy, but to shut it down, I wrote a Perl script (which the service executes during Linux shutdown) which uses tmux commands to send commands to the Multics console and to read the responses back in order to implement the Multics shutdown process.
In order for the Perl script to handle reading the commands, it executes itself via tmux pipe-pane, which feeds the Multics/emulator console output to standard input of the re-executed script, and uses tmux send-keys to send the required commands to the Multics/emulator console.
I suspect it may be possible to do something similar for VM under Hercules but haven't taken the time to work it out yet.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12/17/22 6:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
I'll say it too.? Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host was rebooted?
? Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that could be done.
? What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because".
????????????? -Dave
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Hello Dave,
Window 10 allows you to set the window or turn off the auto reboot, as I remember.
I've been going with the auto reboot because I know it is for the best to let Windows do the auto updating.
I wish Micro$oft allowed us to specify a list of programs that if running prevented auto restarting (instead of how it figures it out today.? I bet it has something to do with CPU utilization.? LOL? Maybe I should write a program to use up CPU in VM/CE.
Bert
Dave McGuire wrote:
[...]
> What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
> machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because".
Ah. Gotcha. I would wholeheartedly agree with you on that one, Dave.
But I'm running Windows 7 which doesn't seem to have that problem. If something requires a reboot, it ASKS you beforehand, giving you the chance to decline and then reboot later when you're ready to do so.
I've heard that later versions of Windows (such as 10 and 11?) simply reboot whether you like it or not if you delay the reboot for too long (or so I've heard). Just one of the many reason why TODAY'S Windows does indeed truly SUCK! (IMHO)
Windows 7? Nice!? :)
Windows 10 or 11? SUCKS!? :(
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Jay Maynard wrote: Hmmm. How does Windows know when the system is in use? Can
we make Hercules tell Windows that the system is in use as
long as it's running? Dunno. I suppose that's something we could maybe look into. The thing that's unclear to me is how Windows determines your process is "idle" ("not doing anything") and is thus nothing to concern itself about. THAT'S what we need to figure out and overcome. But even then, with the way modern Windows works, even that might not be good enough. It seems those a**holes in Redmond have decided that when the system needs rebooting in order to install monthly updates, it's going to reboot come hell or high water whether you want it to or not! (Or so I've heard. Like I said, I've never experienced it myself as I still run Windows 7 and will continue to do so for as long as possible.(*)) Just as an FYI: we already do have logic that detects logoff and shutdown events and attempts to do clean "emergency" shutdown, but that of course is not going to save the guest. (And if Hercules needs longer than 5 seconds to complete its shutdown, you're fucked. That's all Windows gives you. Refer to the "console_ctrl_handler" and "MainWndProc" functions in impl.c) ------------ (*) For at least the next two years anyway: But even when that expires, I may decide to continue running Windows 7 anyway. I *hate* modern Windows! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
On 12/17/22 20:30, Fish Fish wrote: [...]
What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because". Ah. Gotcha. I would wholeheartedly agree with you on that one, Dave.
But I'm running Windows 7 which doesn't seem to have that problem. If something requires a reboot, it ASKS you beforehand, giving you the chance to decline and then reboot later when you're ready to do so.
I've heard that later versions of Windows (such as 10 and 11?) simply reboot whether you like it or not if you delay the reboot for too long (or so I've heard). Just one of the many reason why TODAY'S Windows does indeed truly SUCK! (IMHO)
Windows 7? Nice! :)
Windows 10 or 11? SUCKS! :( It's difficult to accept the notion that it would just do that without permission. Unbelievable. I'd never have the patience for that crap. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Dave McGuire wrote: [...] What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because". Ah. Gotcha. I would wholeheartedly agree with you on that one, Dave. But I'm running Windows 7 which doesn't seem to have that problem. If something requires a reboot, it ASKS you beforehand, giving you the chance to decline and then reboot later when you're ready to do so. I've heard that later versions of Windows (such as 10 and 11?) simply reboot whether you like it or not if you delay the reboot for too long (or so I've heard). Just one of the many reason why TODAY'S Windows does indeed truly SUCK! (IMHO) Windows 7? Nice! :) Windows 10 or 11? SUCKS! :( -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Hmmm. How does?Windows know when the system is in use? Can we make Hercules tell Windows that the system is in use as long as it's running?
Hello Dave,
My Windows system didn't just reboot.? It had several updates to apply and they required a reboot.? I have Windows set up to reboot, if the system isn't in use during specified period.
In this case, Windows and VM/CE had been up for 10 days.
Earlier my use of Windows in the idea should have included all OSs able to run Hercules.
Bert / WB9ERT.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 17:40 Dave McGuire < mcguire@...> wrote: On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
>> I'll say it too.? Treat the problem, not the symptom:
>> Don't use Windows.
>
> Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host was rebooted?
? ?Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that
could be done.
? ?What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because".
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Hello Dave,
My Windows system didn't just reboot.? It had several updates to apply and they required a reboot.? I have Windows set up to reboot, if the system isn't in use during specified period.
In this case, Windows and VM/CE had been up for 10 days.
Earlier my use of Windows in the idea should have included all OSs able to run Hercules.
Bert / WB9ERT.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 17:40 Dave McGuire < mcguire@...> wrote: On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote:
>> I'll say it too.? Treat the problem, not the symptom:
>> Don't use Windows.
>
> Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host was rebooted?
? ?Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that
could be done.
? ?What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows
machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because".
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
On 12/17/22 17:46, Fish Fish wrote: I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host was rebooted?
Not really...but while I've not done it myself, I can see how that could be done. What I'm saying is that a Linux box (or, really, any non-Windows machine) won't just randomly shit the bed or reboot "just because". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Or more properly stated, are you claiming that booting a non-Windows host would cause both Hercules to properly shutdown the VM guest it was running as well as for Hercules to be properly shutdown as well?
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Dave McGuire wrote: I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom:
Don't use Windows. Are you claiming a Hercules running a VM guest on non-Windows would properly shutdown both the VM guest as well as Hercules too whenever the host was rebooted? -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
I'll say it too. Treat the problem, not the symptom: Don't use Windows.
-Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 12/17/22 16:32, Joe Monk wrote: Ill say it!!
USE SHADOW FILES!!!
Joe
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 3:19 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@... <mailto:david.b.trout@...>> wrote:
Bertram Moshier wrote:
[...]
> Windows rebooted and, of course, didn't shutdown VM.
[...]
> Suggestion:? Maybe Hercules could look for Windows shutdowns
> or restart (like other programs) and then depending upon the
> OS shut it down properly.? Just a thiought.
Maybe you should .......
<me: bites tongue>
(Nope! I'm NOT going to say it!)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
<>
mail: fish@... <mailto:fish@...>
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
Re: It has been awhile and I forget how to get past a power loss
Ill say it!!
USE SHADOW FILES!!!
Joe
Bertram Moshier wrote:
[...]
> Windows rebooted and, of course, didn't shutdown VM.
[...]
> Suggestion:? Maybe Hercules could look for Windows shutdowns
> or restart (like other programs) and then depending upon the
> OS shut it down properly.? Just a thiought.
Maybe you should .......
<me: bites tongue>
(Nope! I'm NOT going to say it!)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
|
Ren¨¦ Ferland
Fran Hensler
Dave McGuire