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True, but, CMS normally runs in BC mode.? Just saying ...

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ECMODE is required to access the higher channel numbers.?

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On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 09:19 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:

Yes you are. My problem is that I normally run the original Bob
system, when I do run VM/370 at all. I am interested in exploring this
better arrangement, and since I normally use a copy of PCOM to
interact with the system, that way.

"the original Bob system" ? Do you mean Bob Abele's original 3-pack system? On that one, I think only 01F is defined in DMKRIO as 3215 (for the operator virtual machine), so I guess a CP nucleus rebuild would be necessary. As for VM/370 CE, 004-00A are defined as 3215, with 009 as an alternate console. That leaves 004-008 and 00A (quite enough for me).

As for what you've commented on, question: Is this set in the configuration file for Hercules?

In the current configuration file vm370ce.conf of VM/370 CE, 00A is defined as a 1052 Typewriter terminal (3215); I added the same definition for 004-008 on my copy.

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

Hello!
Yes you are. My problem is that I normally run the original Bob
system, when I do run VM/370 at all. I am interested in exploring this
better arrangement, and since I normally use a copy of PCOM to
interact with the system, that way.

I do know that I was rather young the first time I actually was
greeted by such a system in general, that's the remote configuration
one. The second one I was much older, that's the one where I noted
that I was the guest of an IBM Fellow working at the Research offices
of IBM in that part of New York, I did not ask the fellow how the two
terminals, we were using one of them, happened to be connected to the
system. I believe the system was in their basement as it happens, I
did not ask to see it.

As for what you've commented on, question: Is this set in the
configuration file for Hercules?
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:16 PM René Ferland <ferland.rene@...> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 06:40 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:

We use a conventional telnet one to manage the console, the Operator one, why
not allow that same style one to communicate with the running OS as if
it were a remote office who only had a teletypewriter as opposed to a
3270 family member terminal to connect to it.

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying here but I know that, on VM/370 CE, it is perfectly possible to logon to a CMS virtual machine with a conventional telnet session. The editor works fine, although in line mode. One can connect on CUU=004 up to CUU=008 for that, and also on CUU=00A. I also logon this way on my DOS/VS and MVS guests, giving me a scrolling console with no MORE... message.

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

"And the Jedi were right all along". Sign found covered in sand in a
corner of Tatooine near an oasis that belonged to a passing crowd of
Tusken Raiders.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 06:40 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:

We use a conventional telnet one to manage the console, the Operator one, why
not allow that same style one to communicate with the running OS as if
it were a remote office who only had a teletypewriter as opposed to a
3270 family member terminal to connect to it.

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying here but I know that, on VM/370 CE, it is perfectly possible to logon to a CMS virtual machine with a conventional telnet session.? The editor works fine, although in line mode. One can connect on CUU=004 up to CUU=008 for that, and also on CUU=00A. I also logon this way on my DOS/VS and MVS guests, giving me a scrolling console with no MORE... message.

Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

Hello!
List managers comment time:
What I'd like to see added to this one, is a working ability to
support other terminals other than say a TN3270 type, (X3270, WC3270,
C3270, PCOM from IBM), and others who speak that protocol. We use a
conventional telnet one to manage the console, the Operator one, why
not allow that same style one to communicate with the running OS as if
it were a remote office who only had a teletypewriter as opposed to a
3270 family member terminal to connect to it. Even though I never did
find out what the mainframe at the other end was running, at least
twice in my far off youth I recall using one of the 27xx systems to
talk to the big guy, one was with a dataphone, and I even remember the
instructions. The other time was whilst I allowed to join an IBM
Fellow's son while said IBM Fellow took him to work, we spent the day
interacting with the terminal there, who was of that same style,
although I cannot recall if it was a definite family member, it just
looked and sounded the same as the one from earlier. The IBM Fellow
worked in a nice lab inside the big research facility in Yorktown
Heights NY.

Years later I even got confirmation as to what that term meant, even
though a friend of my mom's was indeed one and did so before that.

We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion, already in progress.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 7:07 AM Bob Bolch <Bob@...> wrote:

Hi Gary and René,

Here are some pros and cons to consider about shipping kicks on the VM370CE install download:

PROs:
No additional work for the end user.

CONs:
More disk space used for all VM370CE installations.
Fixes might have to wait for the next VM370CE release.
VM370CE becomes responsible for distributing KICKS fixes.

I would like to hear other people's thinking, in general, on what should be delivered on the VM370CE download, and what should be delivered separately, and why.

Thank you,
Bob Bolch

PS other proposed new facilities for the VM370CE download include:
ASSIST assembler
DISASM port
UTS support
PASCAL compiler

And this entire space was originally bought for the Jabba organization
before its owner died an ugly one at the hands of the Princess.

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Hi Bob,

I can see both sides of the PRO's and CON's put forth by everyone.?

They lead me to think about MVS TK4-.? It has alot of products installed into it as well as being configured to work with Optional "products" such as the MVS source, CBT files and others.? If you want them you just copy the DASD files into the sub-directory and possibly make a small configuration change in MVS.? The user can use any or all of the installed software as they desire.? When an author such as Greg Price or Rob Prins releases a new version then those that have the skill or desire can update their system without waiting for the next release of MVS TK4-.?

Given the above, here are some thoughts.? (Sentences in italics are my summation/interpretation of the issue.)

• Given that not everyone may have a wealth of PC disk space, should there be a "core" and "optional" vs a larger all encompassing distro?? This will require some additional research to make the determination and an implementation requirements.
• VM/370 CE maintainers being responsible shipping updated product releases or fixes (KICKS or others).? The maintainers are already doing this for many products/tools/utilities, for example BREXX, MECAFF, or PASCAL.? The users that have the skill and desire have always installed new products, versions or fixes. My only suggestion would be a centralized location, structure and process for the release of fixes and new releases.? ?
  

The more I think about this, the longer I keep thinking about the "core" vs "optional" idea and the ease/difficultly of making it work.? Here are some concerns:

• Will DMKRIO need to be updated to add more 3350 addresses to allow a large number of "optional" products?? Potentially 1 DASD per product.? Its not a big deal, but needs to be considered.
• What is the procedure of getting "optional" products installed on the CMS S disk or x/S disk?? If not installed on the S or x/S, what will be the method of resolving disk letter conflict?
• "Optional" product Saved Systems or DSS inclusion will cause problems for the new or inexperienced users.? It can be daunting for even an experienced SYSPROG.?
  

After thinking about this for some time, I'm thinking that "optional" products may not be such a good idea.? There was a time when I was PC disk poor and had to uninstall my Hercules environments for a number of years until I could afford larger drives (3 ravenous teenagers in the house).?? Maybe a "Lite" version for those that are PC resource constrained or desire such and an "Ultimate" version would be better solution.? I realize that is more work keeping 2 versions so it's a suggestion and not a should do.

That lead me to the question "What is the intended target audience of VM/370 CE?" I've seen through the group everyone from the "new to mainframes" to experienced VM Systems Programmers. ?

Going back to MVS TK4-, I don't have much time lately to play with it, but when I did I only used a small portion of the installed products, but like the idea of that they were there if I was to so inclined to use them.? Kind of like using a word processor or spreadsheet program, most of us only use 25% of the features, but the rest of them are available if we need them.

Bob, back to my original post, I still have some time to install KICKS if the community would like or René Ferland's zip file is in the Files section if that is the most current version. It is dated October 29, 2021 and contains Tom Chandler's manual dated October 15, 2021.

Regards,

Gary

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Hi Bob,

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 02:55 PM, gdblodgett wrote:

Has anyone volunteered for the KICKS project yet? I have some free time at the moment.

?

In the Files section, I posted a zip file for a quick install of KICKS: two disks containing a virtual machine (where everything is already installed), plus a directory entry. Basically, one just has to add these disks to the system and update the directory. I am not sure if we should distribute KICKS with VM/370 CE, I mean as a "standard" component.

Yours truly,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal