开云体育

Bertram Moshier wrote:

If I remember correctly, on the 3350 it was the attention button
I pressed to generate the interrupt to break the CCW chain.

We had 3350s at the shop I was at too, but I don't personally recall whether they had an attention button or not. Maybe they did, but we certainly never used it.

Now I do recall 3330s had a device address "plug" that you could "pop" (unplug and then plug back in again) and I do recall it being used once or twice, but it was an extremely rare occurrence and I don't recall under what circumstances it was used.

Thanks for the "I addr" command.

It's just "i" (lower case). It doesn't need to be capitalized unless you want to. BUT... it's not going to help you any in the situation you described (looping channel program) as it can ONLY be used on non-busy (i.e. idle) devices, and in the situation you described, the device would by definition always be busy.

I recommend using whatever guest O/S facility is available (if any) to cancel/abort the currently active I/O.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Tony Harminc wrote:

Joe Monk wrote:

Bertram Moshier wrote:

So, how does one on Hercules interrupt a CCW program in
an infinite loop?

That would be the "I" (capital letter I) console command.

I 0194

I don't think so. That would just generate a standalone Device
End (and/or Attention?).

Attention --- *IF* it were possible of course (which it's not because the device is still busy; you can only generate an attention interrupt for idle devices).

(And the command does NOT need to be capitalized either. A simple "i <devnum>" is all that is needed. It can be capitalized if you want to enter the command that way (I think), but it's certainly not necessary.)

It's possible that might effectively interrupt a running
channel program,

Nope. Not possible. Attention interrupts cannot be generated for devices that are still busy executing an I/O. Only idle devices can have an attention interrupt generated for them via the "i" command.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

On Dec 23, 2022, at 3:06 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

On 12/23/22 15:56, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:

While the ftp protocol is still used in places, it is being replaced more and more with sftp, because ftp sends passwords in plain-text.

Yes, obviously. But that replacement is a decision for network administrators, not vendors. That is my complaint. I know the implications, and I make informed choices.

But it seems today that most people are just content to be led around by the nose. :-(

As far as on macOS, the curl utility is readily available can handle most common requirements for ftp, for those who need it, and there are other 3rd-party solutions of various kinds available.

Sure. But that's Apple telling people how to work, and removing a utility that people may want to use.

Apple likely dropped their own support for it to reduce the amount of space consumed by the OS for an unsafe protocol that is becoming more and more of a rarity for anyone other than a select few, which is easily handled by 3rd-party options for the handful of us who still need it.

Apple probably dropped it because they tend to remove anything they perceive as "old". Surely you've seen the size of OSX these days; it's huge...the tiny FTP binary is a drop in the bucket. It's 99KB on a modern Linux x86 system, and 77KB on ARM. (not including the shared libraries which are already there for other binaries)

There's no real reason for Apple to remove it other than wanting to dictate how people work, and to save those who won't learn about the tools from themselves.

I think this last point is a valid reason for Apple not to include it.

I'm a longtime mac user and like it, but I agree that it would be nice if the program was hidden away somewhere for those that have a need for it, same thing with telnet.

If it helps, the Finder can still be used to connect to FTP servers, Go -> "Connect to Server...".

doug

On 12/23/22 15:56, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:

While the ftp protocol is still used in places, it is being replaced more and more with sftp, because ftp sends passwords in plain-text.

Yes, obviously. But that replacement is a decision for network administrators, not vendors. That is my complaint. I know the implications, and I make informed choices.

But it seems today that most people are just content to be led around by the nose. :-(

As far as on macOS, the curl utility is readily available can handle most common requirements for ftp, for those who need it, and there are other 3rd-party solutions of various kinds available.

Sure. But that's Apple telling people how to work, and removing a utility that people may want to use.

Apple likely dropped their own support for it to reduce the amount of space consumed by the OS for an unsafe protocol that is becoming more and more of a rarity for anyone other than a select few, which is easily handled by 3rd-party options for the handful of us who still need it.

Apple probably dropped it because they tend to remove anything they perceive as "old". Surely you've seen the size of OSX these days; it's huge...the tiny FTP binary is a drop in the bucket. It's 99KB on a modern Linux x86 system, and 77KB on ARM. (not including the shared libraries which are already there for other binaries)

There's no real reason for Apple to remove it other than wanting to dictate how people work, and to save those who won't learn about the tools from themselves.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

While the ftp protocol is still used in places, it is being replaced more and more with sftp, because ftp sends passwords in plain-text.

As far as on macOS, the curl utility is readily available can handle most common requirements for ftp, for those who need it, and there are other 3rd-party solutions of various kinds available.

Apple likely dropped their own support for it to reduce the amount of space consumed by the OS for an unsafe protocol that is becoming more and more of a rarity for anyone other than a select few, which is easily handled by 3rd-party options for the handful of us who still need it.

On 12/23/22 15:02, Michael Burke wrote:

Safari dropped FTP support ages ago and I don’t think Edge supports it either.
FTP support is hard to find. I need it and run an old MacOS using Parallels to support it

Hardly. It comes with every reasonable OS.

Not sure about the others but Safari still does have support. It has built in sftp. Just not ftp.
I’m sure the other browsers have built in sftp support as well.
The real question is about the future and usage of ftps. That seems to be hard to find and that good.

Works great here. ;) Replacing it with sftp sounds good on the surface, but sftp doesn't (as far as I'm aware) handle all of the conversions and such that ftp(s) does. To people on this list in particular that might be a big deal. Recall that sftp is a wrapper around ssh that does file transfer; it does not use the FTP protocol.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Dec 23, 2022, at 11:03 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 12/23/22 13:46, Michael Burke wrote:

Does such a browser exist?

None that I've heard of. Of course it wasn't really reasonable for a *web* browser to support FTP in the first place, but the first ones did, and so built an expectation.

Safari dropped FTP support ages ago and I don’t think Edge supports it either.
FTP support is hard to find. I need it and run an old MacOS using Parallels to support it

Hardly. It comes with every reasonable OS.

Not sure about the others but Safari still does have support. It has built in sftp. Just not ftp.

I’m sure the other browsers have built in sftp support as well.

The real question is about the future and usage of ftps. That seems to be hard to find and that good.

FTP’s days are numbered, I’m afraid.

Ha! Doubtful.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Michael

On 12/23/22 14:03, Dave McGuire wrote:

FTP’s days are numbered, I’m afraid.

? Ha!? Doubtful.

[replying to my own email here, bad form, I know]

Wow, I'm sorry, I hadn't intended for that to sound as snarky as it did. Busy day.

What I meant is that anyone who has been following the industry for more than a few years knows that such predictions are nearly always pointless. Remember "the last mainframe would be unplugged on March 15, 1996"? How about rumors of the impending death of SGI that started around 1994, that didn't come true until a decade and a half later? Same with Cray.

Just see what happens, and as an educated and experienced professional in the computer field, use YOUR judgment to determine what protocols YOU use. Playing "follow the leader" is for lackies. We're all participants, no matter how out of fashion independent thought has been rendered by people who want to sell us things.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On 12/23/22 13:51, Michael Burke wrote:

Apple doesn’t ship the ftp program any longer. Not available for command line execution. Only sftp is supported.

Oh, that's surprising to hear, I didn't know that. I dumped MacOS when they started telling me how to work, around the 10.5 era. (I already know how to work!) The removal of a common, standard program *that requires no maintenance* is dictatorial BS.

I’m sure one can obtain ftp through Brew but that’s another story.

Ah, so readily available.

On the other hand, nearly every commercial ftp site has been switched to sftp anyway. Only a few old-style ftp services remain.

Well, if one desperately desires to follow along with what corporations are doing, well.. I use the right protocol for the job. Sure, FTP is old, but so is everything else.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On 12/23/22 13:46, Michael Burke wrote:

Does such a browser exist?

None that I've heard of. Of course it wasn't really reasonable for a *web* browser to support FTP in the first place, but the first ones did, and so built an expectation.

Safari dropped FTP support ages ago and I don’t think Edge supports it either.
FTP support is hard to find. I need it and run an old MacOS using Parallels to support it.

Hardly. It comes with every reasonable OS.

FTP’s days are numbered, I’m afraid.

Ha! Doubtful.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Dec 23, 2022, at 10:00 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?On 12/23/22 12:57, Fish Fish wrote:

FYI: I have a whole collection of VM workshop tapes from George Shedlock
archived on my SoftDevLabs FTP site:

ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/
ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/index.html

Fish, I can't seem to access your FTP site.

Either use a web browser OTHER than Google Chrome (as they have dropped support for the ftp protocol support) or else, even better, use an actual FTP client like you're supposed to, such as FileZilla.

Firefox has dropped FTP support too, the idiots.

After all, to these kids, "Internet" == "world-wide web".

But that's ok, ftp (meaning plain old "type 'ftp' at the command line") works as well as it always has. No dancing paper clips, naked women, or advertising, but it transfers files just fine.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Apple doesn’t ship the ftp program any longer. Not available for command line execution. Only sftp is supported.

I’m sure one can obtain ftp through Brew but that’s another story.

On the other hand, nearly every commercial ftp site has been switched to sftp anyway. Only a few old-style ftp services remain.

Security rules more and more.

Michael

On Dec 23, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:

?Mike Ward wrote:

Fish wrote:

FYI: I have a whole collection of VM workshop tapes from George Shedlock
archived on my SoftDevLabs FTP site:

ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/
ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/index.html

Fish, I can't seem to access your FTP site.

Either use a web browser OTHER than Google Chrome (as they have dropped support for the ftp protocol support) or else, even better, use an actual FTP client like you're supposed to, such as FileZilla.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Does such a browser exist?

Safari dropped FTP support ages ago and I don’t think Edge supports it either.

FTP support is hard to find. I need it and run an old MacOS using Parallels to support it.

FTP’s days are numbered, I’m afraid.

Michael

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

So, how does one on Hercules interrupt a CCW program in
an infinite loop? On real iron I would press the 3350
(as an example) interrupt button.

Hercules does not support any hardware-way of interrupting a device that is currently executing a channel program (Hercules does not support any type "interrupt" button of the device). The only hardware-way that I know of is via either re-initializing the device or detaching the device itself from, and then re-attaching it again to, your Hercules configuration (via either the 'devinit' or 'detach' and 'attach' commands). Of the two, doing a 'devinit' is probably the safest.

Detaching the device from, and then re-attaching it again to, your Hercules configuration is analogous to physically powering the device off and then powering it back on again, which, depending on what guest operating system you're running, could easily end up "boxing" the device.

Instead, the only recommended way that I am aware of is to actually cancel/abort the I/O itself via execution of either the Cancel Subchannel or Halt Subchannel instruction or the Halt I/O or Halt Device instruction.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 11:55 AM, Kevin Jordan wrote:

Can you please provide a screenshot or text that more clearly describes?what you are seeing?

Resent to you directly.

?... Mark S.

On 12/23/22 12:57, Fish Fish wrote:

FYI: I have a whole collection of VM workshop tapes from George Shedlock
archived on my SoftDevLabs FTP site:

ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/
ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/index.html

Fish, I can't seem to access your FTP site.

Either use a web browser OTHER than Google Chrome (as they have dropped support for the ftp protocol support) or else, even better, use an actual FTP client like you're supposed to, such as FileZilla.

Firefox has dropped FTP support too, the idiots.

After all, to these kids, "Internet" == "world-wide web".

But that's ok, ftp (meaning plain old "type 'ftp' at the command line") works as well as it always has. No dancing paper clips, naked women, or advertising, but it transfers files just fine.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Mike Ward wrote:

Fish wrote:

FYI: I have a whole collection of VM workshop tapes from George Shedlock
archived on my SoftDevLabs FTP site:

ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/
ftp://www.softdevlabs.com/shedlock/vmwkshop/index.html

Fish, I can't seem to access your FTP site.

Either use a web browser OTHER than Google Chrome (as they have dropped support for the ftp protocol support) or else, even better, use an actual FTP client like you're supposed to, such as FileZilla.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...