Hi everyone
?
Dare I ask a question relating
to Lincolnshire on a Yorkshire list?!! It is for the family tree of someone who
now lives in Yorkshire...
?
In 1847 the Alford Agricultural
society awarded a prize to?“The labourer in husbandry, of good character,
who shall have brought up or is now bringing up by his own industry, the
largest family without parochial relief (except in case of long illness or
misfortune) and not having occupied more than one acre of land, regard being
had to the number of children placed out, the first premium of ?3 went to
Thomas Horton of Theddlethorpe, labourer to Mr Rd Mason having had 16 children,
six placed out.”? (I could only find 13 children)
? The family have seven children in the 1841 census (one boy had died and the oldest boy and girl would be teenagers so I assume working.) In the 1851 census the three oldest boys from 1841 are no longer at home (again assuming they are working) and there are three new children.?
?Initially I thought placed out might refer to the children finding work? to support the family but now I wonder if they were given to other families to be raised? Is that the more likely explanation?
best wishes
Jane? Chasing W(h)eldrick/drake - which is a Yorkshire name - anywhere, anytime, any likely variation
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
Thank you, John. That was kind of you. I never thought of checking FreeBDM for others on the same page.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: John Hanson
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 9:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
Diane
I ran a quick check and is the only Ann Dixon in that quarter that you can’t download as a digital image
?
I then checked for all the Dixon’s In Sculcoates in Q4 1882 and again is the only one that is not orderable as a digital image
?
I then found the other entries on the same page using FreeBDM and checked a couple of those – none available as a digital download so possibly an issue with the page
?
Regards
John Hanson FSG
Researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust -
Research website -
And my own study of FOSKER
?
?
?
?
I’m sorry. I didn’t respond very well earlier. The registration of death for Ann Dixon (Sculcoates - 4th quarter 1882) is available in certificate and pdf form but not digital.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
From:
Lin Duke
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
What's there? No details posted to the group.
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
Diane I ran a quick check and is the only Ann Dixon in that quarter that you can’t download as a digital image ? I then checked for all the Dixon’s In Sculcoates in Q4 1882 and again is the only one that is not orderable as a digital image ? I then found the other entries on the same page using FreeBDM and checked a couple of those – none available as a digital download so possibly an issue with the page ? Regards John Hanson FSG Researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names Researcher, the Halsted Trust - Research website - And my own study of FOSKER ? ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Diane
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 11:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images? I’m sorry. I didn’t respond very well earlier. The registration of death for Ann Dixon (Sculcoates - 4th quarter 1882) is available in certificate and pdf form but not digital. ? Diane ? Sent from for Windows ? From: Lin Duke
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images ? What's there? No details posted to the group.
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
I have had 2 mid 19th century birth certs recently that had the top half missing and showing in full the person below. I informed the GRO and they said they couldn't correct so to order a PDF or full cert instead.? I was successful with another 7 birth certs but still not satisfactory. They didn't explain what the problem was.
I’m sorry. I didn’t respond very well earlier. The registration of death for Ann Dixon (Sculcoates - 4th quarter 1882) is available in certificate and pdf form but not digital.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
From: Lin Duke
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
What's there? No details posted to the group.
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
I’m sorry. I didn’t respond very well earlier. The registration of death for Ann Dixon (Sculcoates - 4th quarter 1882) is available in certificate and pdf form but not digital.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
From: Lin DukeSent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:04 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
What's there? No details posted to the group.
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
In which case, yes I have come across the same when a digital download should have been available, only a couple
Probably for the reason already stated
I ordered four as soon as I became aware of it this morning, three were fine, one had the first line missing
I will try and keep an eye on the entry to see if they drop the digital download
Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 15/11/2023 21:44, Diane wrote: It’s there. ?The digital download isn’t an option – only a certificate or PDF.
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
What's there? No details posted to the group.
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
That seems reasonable.
?
Sent from for Windows
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Ruth Willmore
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 4:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
I don't know, but I wonder if there is no digital download when the scan quality is poor. I have purchased one or two where the scan is out so I've half the information I want and half someone else's certificate. I've been refunded but
told I'll need to pay the ?7 for the PDF in this circumstance.? The JPG option has no human intervention.? I wonder if they disable the JPG option when they've refunded a certificate?
?
Thanks for the update, Lin.? I had been holding off ordering more records until digital images were available. I have one person who died in 1882, but her death is still not available
as a digital download. I wondered if anyone else had found someone who was skipped.
?
Diane
?
Sent from
for Windows
?
?
The General Register Office (GRO) has extended the availability of digital images, so you can now get copies of death certificates from 1837 to 1957, as well as births from 1837 to 1922, for only ?2.50.
?
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
It’s there. ?The digital download isn’t an option – only a certificate or PDF.
?
Sent from for Windows
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Nivard Ovington
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 4:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
Are you sure its not there?
I have found a few mistranscribed
The GROs indexes were compiled from the records totally separate to the
usual GRO index
I have found most of those who could not be found initially
Post the details and we can have a look for your entry
Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)
On 15/11/2023 20:52, Diane wrote:
> Thanks for the update, Lin.? I had been holding off ordering more
> records until digital images were available. I have one person who died
> in 1882, but her death is still not available as a digital download. I
> wondered if anyone else had found someone who was skipped.
>
> Diane
?
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
I don't know, but I wonder if there is no digital download when the scan quality is poor. I have purchased one or two where the scan is out so I've half the information I want and half someone else's certificate. I've been refunded but told I'll need to pay the ?7 for the PDF in this circumstance.? The JPG option has no human intervention.? I wonder if they disable the JPG option when they've refunded a certificate? Ruth
Thanks for the update, Lin.? I had been holding off ordering more records until digital images were available. I have one person who died in 1882, but her death is still not available as a digital download. I wondered if anyone else had
found someone who was skipped.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
The General Register Office (GRO) has extended the availability of digital images, so you can now get copies of death certificates from 1837 to 1957, as well as births from 1837 to 1922, for only ?2.50.
?
Lin
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
Are you sure its not there?
I have found a few mistranscribed
The GROs indexes were compiled from the records totally separate to the usual GRO index
I have found most of those who could not be found initially
Post the details and we can have a look for your entry
Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 15/11/2023 20:52, Diane wrote: Thanks for the update, Lin.? I had been holding off ordering more records until digital images were available. I have one person who died in 1882, but her death is still not available as a digital download. I wondered if anyone else had found someone who was skipped.
Diane
|
Re: General Register Office - digital images
Thanks for the update, Lin.? I had been holding off ordering more records until digital images were available. I have one person who died in 1882, but her death is still not available as a digital download. I wondered if anyone else had
found someone who was skipped.
?
Diane
?
Sent from for Windows
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Lin Duke
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 12:55 PM
To: [email protected];
[email protected];
[email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [yorksgen] General Register Office - digital images
?
The General Register Office (GRO) has extended the availability of digital images, so you can now get copies of death certificates from 1837 to 1957, as well as births from 1837 to 1922, for only ?2.50.
?
Lin
|
General Register Office - digital images
The General Register Office (GRO) has extended the
availability of digital images, so you can now get copies of
death certificates from 1837 to 1957, as well as births from
1837 to 1922, for only ?2.50.
Lin
|
Please add anyone you wish to remember to this thread which will be open until Remembrance Sunday. I will open it again next year.
Lin
|
Re: Christened or Baptised - Kirkby Ravensworth 1788
Arthur and Wendy,
Arthur, thank you for your detailed explanation. As this was only the third child in the register christened/baptised by the new minister I think your thought that it was a private baptism makes sense.
There is a collection called "Yorkshire Parish Registers and Bishop's Transcripts Browse" on FindMyPast.
I've looked for Kirkby Ravensworth and all the records say "Parish records", whereas for other parishes there are both "Parish records" and
"Bishop's transcripts". So no joy there.
And there's "England, Yorkshire, Bishop's Transcripts, 1547-1957" on FamilySearch, but the page is playing up for me - it keeps jumping from top to bottom - so I haven't checked that.
Rosemary
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 04/11/2023 20:13, Arthur K wrote: In the official teaching and liturgy of the Church of England, 'baptism' and 'christening' are exactly the same thing. However, some people made a distinction, and this is occasionally seen in parish registers where clergy apparently adopted the popular terminology.
According to this way of thinking, baptism was the part of the ceremony involving water, and christening was the part where the child was received into the church. The church intended these to be part and parcel of the same occasion, although it also provided for private baptism where children were thought to be in danger of death, and if they survived, they were expected to be brought to church later.
In spite of this official line, private baptism often came to be seen as the norm, with the so-called 'christening' happening later, if at all. If it did happen, that's when you might see separate dates for 'baptism' and 'christening' in a register.
In this case in Kirkby Ravensworth, it seems likely that John Sheffin/Shippen was baptised privately. Some clergy would have noted 'Private' against the entry, but it seems that Robert Scott might have been following popular usage here, and trying to say that whereas the baptism had taken place, the so-called 'christening' hadn't. This was only the third baptism he had taken in the parish, so it may be that he hadn't yet learned the correct way to record it.
I had hoped to find the Bishops Transcripts to see how it was recorded there. Kirkby Ravensworth was in the Archdeaconry of Richmond, and the BTs for there are at West Yorkshire Archives in Leeds. As such, they used to be at Ancestry, but I couldn't find them just now. Can anyone else?
Arthur
On 04/11/2023 16:31, Rosemary wrote:
I've been looking at the baptism register for Kirkby Ravensworth around 1788.
One entry intrigued me as the printed word 'Christened' had been crossed through and replaced with 'Bapt'.
06 Aug 1788 John son of John and Jane SHEFFIN [probably SHIPPEN].
"John Son of John SHEFFIN & Jane his wife of Newsham was Born Augt 4th 1788 and Bapt. Augt 6th 1788
Registered Augt 6th 1788 by me Robt. Scott Minister"
I have looked at some of the pages on either side of this, and this would seem to be the only entry where it has happened. The incumbent changed earlier that year, but this hasn't made any difference.
They had a daughter, Jane, who was 'christened' on the 07 Sep 1791.
Could it mean that the family were non-conformist? Possibly Catholic?
Rosemary
|
Re: Christened or Baptised - Kirkby Ravensworth 1788
Hi Rosemary & Arthur,
I have checked for Bishops Transcripts in Ancestry, Family Search
and Find My Past and can not find this baptism/christening.?
I do wonder why the BT's have disappeared from these platforms.
Cheers
Wendy
On 5/11/2023 4:13 am, Arthur K wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
In
the official teaching and liturgy of the Church of England,
'baptism' and 'christening' are exactly the same thing. However,
some people made a distinction, and this is occasionally seen in
parish registers where clergy apparently adopted the popular
terminology.
According to this way of thinking, baptism was the part of the
ceremony involving water, and christening was the part where the
child was received into the church. The church intended these to
be part and parcel of the same occasion, although it also provided
for private baptism where children were thought to be in danger of
death, and if they survived, they were expected to be brought to
church later.
In spite of this official line, private baptism often came to be
seen as the norm, with the so-called 'christening' happening
later, if at all. If it did happen, that's when you might see
separate dates for 'baptism' and 'christening' in a register.
In this case in Kirkby Ravensworth, it seems likely that John
Sheffin/Shippen was baptised privately. Some clergy would have
noted 'Private' against the entry, but it seems that Robert Scott
might have been following popular usage here, and trying to say
that whereas the baptism had taken place, the so-called
'christening' hadn't. This was only the third baptism he had taken
in the parish, so it may be that he hadn't yet learned the correct
way to record it.
I had hoped to find the Bishops Transcripts to see how it was
recorded there. Kirkby Ravensworth was in the Archdeaconry of
Richmond, and the BTs for there are at West Yorkshire Archives in
Leeds. As such, they used to be at Ancestry, but I couldn't find
them just now. Can anyone else?
Arthur
On 04/11/2023 16:31, Rosemary wrote:
I've been looking at the baptism register for Kirkby Ravensworth
around 1788.
One entry intrigued me as the printed word 'Christened' had been
crossed through and replaced with 'Bapt'.
06 Aug 1788 John son of John and Jane SHEFFIN [probably
SHIPPEN].
"John Son of John SHEFFIN & Jane his wife of Newsham was
Born Augt 4th 1788 and Bapt. Augt 6th 1788
Registered Augt 6th 1788 by me Robt. Scott Minister"
I have looked at some of the pages on either side of this, and
this would seem to be the only entry where it has happened. The
incumbent changed earlier that year, but this hasn't made any
difference.
They had a daughter, Jane, who was 'christened' on the 07 Sep
1791.
Could it mean that the family were non-conformist? Possibly
Catholic?
Rosemary
|
Re: Christened or Baptised - Kirkby Ravensworth 1788
In the official teaching and liturgy of the Church of England, 'baptism' and 'christening' are exactly the same thing. However, some people made a distinction, and this is occasionally seen in parish registers where clergy apparently adopted the popular terminology.
According to this way of thinking, baptism was the part of the ceremony involving water, and christening was the part where the child was received into the church. The church intended these to be part and parcel of the same occasion, although it also provided for private baptism where children were thought to be in danger of death, and if they survived, they were expected to be brought to church later.
In spite of this official line, private baptism often came to be seen as the norm, with the so-called 'christening' happening later, if at all. If it did happen, that's when you might see separate dates for 'baptism' and 'christening' in a register.
In this case in Kirkby Ravensworth, it seems likely that John Sheffin/Shippen was baptised privately. Some clergy would have noted 'Private' against the entry, but it seems that Robert Scott might have been following popular usage here, and trying to say that whereas the baptism had taken place, the so-called 'christening' hadn't. This was only the third baptism he had taken in the parish, so it may be that he hadn't yet learned the correct way to record it.
I had hoped to find the Bishops Transcripts to see how it was recorded there. Kirkby Ravensworth was in the Archdeaconry of Richmond, and the BTs for there are at West Yorkshire Archives in Leeds. As such, they used to be at Ancestry, but I couldn't find them just now. Can anyone else?
Arthur
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 04/11/2023 16:31, Rosemary wrote:
I've been looking at the baptism register for Kirkby Ravensworth around 1788.
One entry intrigued me as the printed word 'Christened' had been crossed through and replaced with 'Bapt'.
06 Aug 1788 John son of John and Jane SHEFFIN [probably SHIPPEN].
"John Son of John SHEFFIN & Jane his wife of Newsham was Born Augt 4th 1788 and Bapt. Augt 6th 1788
Registered Augt 6th 1788 by me Robt. Scott Minister"
I have looked at some of the pages on either side of this, and this would seem to be the only entry where it has happened. The incumbent changed earlier that year, but this hasn't made any difference.
They had a daughter, Jane, who was 'christened' on the 07 Sep 1791.
Could it mean that the family were non-conformist? Possibly Catholic?
Rosemary
|
Christened or Baptised - Kirkby Ravensworth 1788
I've been looking at the baptism register for Kirkby Ravensworth around 1788.
One entry intrigued me as the printed word 'Christened' had been crossed through and replaced with 'Bapt'.
06 Aug 1788 John son of John and Jane SHEFFIN [probably SHIPPEN].
"John Son of John SHEFFIN & Jane his wife of Newsham was Born Augt 4th 1788 and Bapt. Augt 6th 1788
Registered Augt 6th 1788 by me Robt. Scott Minister"
I have looked at some of the pages on either side of this, and this would seem to be the only entry where it has happened. The incumbent changed earlier that year, but this hasn't made any difference.
They had a daughter, Jane, who was 'christened' on the 07 Sep 1791.
Could it mean that the family were non-conformist? Possibly Catholic?
Rosemary
|
Hi Maureen,
When you're not sure of the geography, I would suggest that you use the Genuki Yorkshire pages.? If you go to:
above and to the left of the England map you will see a link to "Where is it in Yorkshire". - take the link then look up Burton in Lonsdale - take the link to the parish that it is/was in.
At the top of the parish page is a map which you can manipulate (+ or -) and go full screen.? On that map you can see the relationship between the two places? you are interested in.
You might also like to download the map of Yorkshire that I drew many years ago - see under "Maps" on the above Genuki Yorkshire page.? This map contains all the places in the "Where is it in Yorkshire" page. Read the notes at the right hand side.
Best wishes,
Colin.
|
Thanks Debbie for your important information. I thought they were near each other. I am doing all my husbands family and he is from West Yorkshire, so havent had much to do with the North.? Also the names arent like today where there some very unusual names as years ago there werent many variations in names, i.e. John, James, William, David, etc? I once found living in the same street, two men with the same Christian names, same surname and same occupation, but fortunately different age so I could find which one was mine.?
Regars,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3 Nov 2023, at 11:39?pm, Debbie Reddy via groups.io <dsr1845@...> wrote:
Hi Maureen,
Bentham is just south of Burton, and is a neighbouring parish just south over the fells/moors,
I notice that the parents of John BATTY; Born 10 Oct 1812; Bapt 22 Nov 1812 in Bentham are described as of Bentham in the register. ?
It would be worth investigating whether Bentham counts as Lonsdale. ?I know it is on the River Wenning which joins the Lune near Hornby, but isn’t usually referred to as Lonsdale
It’s aways difficult when the same names pop up in the same location & and the two parishes do share quite a long boundary.
Best regards Debbie
On 3 Nov 2023, at 05:27, Maureen Farrer <maureenfarrer71@...> wrote:
Hi Debbie,
Thanks,
I have also found?John BATTY; Born 10 Oct 1812; Bapt 22 Nov 1812 in Bentham, Yorkshire to William and Elizabeth. I think Bentham is near Burton ?
Thats the trouble there are so many with same name. I once had two people living in the same street in London with same name and same trade !!!
Maureen
On 3 Nov 2023, at 11:40?am, Debbie Reddy via groups.io <dsr1845@...> wrote:
Hi Maureen
I found John in the following censuses with the following places of birth
1861 Burton in Lonsdale 1871 Lonsdale 1881 Burton
The entry that Jane found "John Batty, son of William and Sarah baptised November 7 at Thornton in Lonsdale 1813" gives an abode of Burton, which will be Burton in Lonsdale in the parish of?Thornton in Lonsdale
I think this is probably the John you’re looking for.
Best regards Debbie
On 2 Nov 2023, at 20:53, Maureen Farrer <maureenfarrer71@...> wrote:
Thanks Jane,
I have found a John Batty b.10 Oct. 1812 to William Batty and Elizabeth in Bentham. So like I find when you are doing genealogy so many people with the same name.
Thanks, Maureen On 2 Nov 2023, at 10:51?pm, JA Woodall <jane.woodall2016@...> wrote:
Hi Maureen
There's a Burton in Lonsdale and a Thornton in Lonsdale about two and a half miles apart.
I couldn't see John in the census but found this:?
John Batty, son of William and Sarah baptised November 7 at Thornton in Lonsdale 1813
Nothing for searching John Batty to the exact place of Burton in Lonsdale.?
Nothing for Esther in Hatton nor a marriage to John Batty - do you have any more information on them which might help?
best wishes
Jane? Chasing W(h)eldrick/drake - any variation, anywhere, anytime Hi Listers,
I am looking for the birth of John BATTY b. 1814.In the 1861 census it says he was born in Lonsdale in Yorkshire. His wife Esther nee ELLIOTT b 1821 in Hatton Cheshire.
I would like her birth details as well.
Thanks,
Maureen in Oz.
|
Nivard Ovington
Wendy Bloomfield