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Re: K4 Altoona ?
Ray,
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? ? ?Thanks for filling in the gap from the end of the 2nd restoration attempt until now. I was unaware that the boiler was deemed useless (although I am not surprised). As I mentioned, there are some folks that have been alienated (to say the least) by the whole affair. I've heard lots of scuttlebutt about various folks in both Altoona and Steamtown who, at the very least, dropped the ball on the project by simply getting involved without knowing what they were getting into. Each time a new person or group got a crack at the job, the previous group was forced to relinquish the job and, thus, animosity has spread and supporters have splintered. Actually there has been pride, politics and just plain bad blood involved that actually harkens back to the days when the PRR was putting together their steam locomotive collection and, later, why it ended up in Strasburg instead of Altoona. I don't know every detail but, as you all can now see, it exists.?
? ? ?Sadly there are many people who can't or won't let go of what has already transpired. Ray alluded to possible criminal activities essentially because money was spent with no results. All I can say to that is hindsight is 20/20. Just throwing "x" amount of money at something doesn't ever guarantee you'll get the desired result in anything. Additionally, it is too easy to look back and attach the moniker of "fraud" to people who had good intentions (although I have heard of some shenanigans going on with funds that were earmarked for the K-4). Regardless, the simple truth is that, no matter what money has already been spent, where it went and who may be held responsible for what, IF anyone wants to see the K-4 run again, a new boiler will have to be built from scratch and that will require even more money. There is no getting around that. ?-- ? Jeff?
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-----Original Message----- From: Ray Breyer To: yardbirdtrains Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 7:22 am Subject: RE: [yardbirdtrains] Re: K4 Altoona ? Hi Henry,
Jeff left out one important piece of information: the boiler of 1361 is unusable. The Pennsy designed her with long flexible staybolts and a certain thickness to the firebox steel. At some point in the late 1930s/early 1940s, the Pennsy decided to economize, and changed the staybolt design by eliminating washers, instead peening over the ends to create in integral washer. They also eliminated a few of them. That design change, coupled with a near 100 year old boiler that's been exposed to the elements for a LONG time, makes it 100% not usable. Something like a million dollars of taxpayer money got sunk into the second rebuild until an engineer (on the third group of people attempting the second rebuild) actually crunched some numbers and discovered that the boiler was dangerous. VERY dangerous. As-is, 1361 will never run again, even if they do reassemble her. Someone will have to come up with another $2 million or so to build a new K-4 boiler from scratch to get her to run again. That's JUST the boiler cost. Altoona is keeping mum about all of this simply because $2M of PA taxpayer money right now has been 100% wasted by them on schlock rebuild attempts. They're keeping their head low because of public backlash, political backlash, and possible criminal charges of fraud. The problems with the engine are completely known among the restoration crowd. There's LOTS of threads about all of this at the RYPN website. The problem with the restoration isn't the engine itself, nor where to run her. A LIRR Ten Wheeler that's just as old just got sent to Strasburg for a rebuild, and that engine will be running in five years so long as the fundraising effort goes well. Older engines have been restored recently, larger engines have been restored in open fields, the Brits regularly take junkyard scrap and get them to run, and Klocke Loco Works is cranking out brand new Americans at a rate of one every three years. The problem is with WHO did the restoration: get good people with a clear plan, good funding, and professionals to direct traffic, and everything goes smoothly. Get fools on the job taking shortcuts, playing politics, and generally not knowing what the hell they're doing, and you ends up with a mess like this (or sort of similarly, like North Freedom, which hasn't run a steam engine since 1998, and which has wasted about the same amount of money on THREE restoration attempts). Regards, Ray Breyer Elgin, IL -----Original Message----- From: yardbirdtrains@... [mailto:yardbirdtrains@...] On Behalf Of Henry Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 2:03 PM To: yardbirdtrains@... Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: K4 Altoona ? So, somebody has to build a fire under the proper people ? Henry --- In yardbirdtrains@..., Jeff Pellas wrote: > > Henry, > The saga of the 1361 is a very long and complicated. Several entities and organizations have had a crack at it; Sometimes this was for funding reasons and sometimes just because the project has taken so long, people have come and gone. > Some of the problems of the K-4 stem from the selection process when it was originally preserved. Basically the locomotive was the easiest one on the dead line to get to. So it is by chance that the 1361 is one of the very oldest K-4s they could have chosen, having been built in 1917. It was 10 years old when the last K-4s began their service lives in 1927. Also the 1361 was one of the very last K-4s in service (retired in 1957) so that locomotive was as beaten down and worn out a machine as you could imagine. Those who set aside the 1361 were not thinking about a 2nd life for the locomotive pulling excursions. > Never the less, the loco was taken down from Horseshoe Curve in the spring of 1987 (I was there as an 18 year old) and, after receiving a cleaning, new coat of paint and a few safety upgrades, she began that 2nd life hauling excursions over Conrail. The new career was cut short when she broke the axle on the main driver after only a few months. > I lost track of the K-4 saga for a few years after that because I entered college but at some point the decision was made to completely restore it. A group started the restoration at Steam Town in Scranton but, after some time and work and because of the influx of Government funds, the restoration had to be scuttled and begun all over again, this time using a very protracted and methodical process which would eventually completely restore/renew practically every piece of the locomotive. Each piece was systematically removed, measured, tested for soundness and remade if necessary (and it was almost always necessary). I believe most, if not all of the major restoration work was actually completed using this method. During that time, the 130P75 tender was modified by removing the retractable water scoop. There are no track pans existing so the machinery was removed to create more space to hold water. > Here's where my knowledge is hazy but what I gather happened next is that the government funding dried up and the various parts of the K-4 simply languished in storage. Meanwhile the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum went through at least a one reorganization upsetting and disenfranchising various folks along the way (which is inevitable, I suppose). During this time the K-4 was reacquired from Steamtown but the Altoona Museum did not have a place to store all the parts, let alone a fully assembled locomotive. Some of the pieces are definitely in Altoona but I'm told other parts are being stored at the East Broad Top RR and possibly other places. > The current regime in Altoona pledged to finish the K-4 restoration once they had a structure in place to house the loco. To this end they have, within the past year, erected a partial roundhouse on the museum grounds. If the previous work on the K-4 really was mostly completed, there really shouldn't be much more restoration that has to be done. Most of the remaining work consists of putting the bleeding thing back together! I am cautiously optimistic the locomotive will be ready for it's centennial in 2017. > By the way, if you are planning to model the 1361, the Penn Line/Bowser locomotive is not the greatest place to start. The early K-4s were constructed with fabricated frames. The last run of K-4s in 1927 had cast steel frames which were about 2 1/2 ft shorter than the fabricated frame of earlier locos (like 1361). The Penn Line model loco is based on drawings of the 1927 K-4s. I once compared the lengths of a Penn Line K-4 with a Key Brass K-4 and the PL loco matched the cast frame loco length perfectly while the Key matched the fabricated frame length. > > Jeff > > jppellas@... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henry > To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...> > Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 11:36 am > Subject: [yardbirdtrains] K4 Altoona ? > > > > > > > OK what's the story with that Jeff ? Big Bucks ? Sell it to the Ohio Central ? Tarp that tender ? Henry > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., Jeff Pellas wrote: > > > > Was in Altoona today to see the 765. Sadly, just a little ways away from the Altoona station platform is the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum where the rusting tender for the K-4 is parked. Seeing the 765 makes me long for the K-4 to run again ...but will it ever? > > > > > > Jeff > > jppellas@ > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Henry > > To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...> > > Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 10:58 am > > Subject: [yardbirdtrains] NS rr steam train ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I punched up Railpicturea.net this AM . Lo' and behold , there was NKP 765 Berkshire type on Horseshoe Curve . Those that can , go look ? Thanks NS . Henry > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
Jeff Pellas