Emmit, did you mean denatured alcohol? I thought the rubbing stuff had a
lubricant in it...I did not know this insulating property of Goo Gone
either, which I sometimes use. Since I always have lacquer thinner here
and in small bottles on the workbench, that's what I usually use to
clean wheels and track with excellent results.

A thought about traction differences in scintered wheels smooth or NS
tires: My old Athearn units have either of these two driving wheel set-ups.
1) NWSL which I believe are machined and polished NS, seldom need
cleaning and traction is within my limits. I have one engine with
Jay-Bee wheelsets that is so-so.
2) polished scintered Athearn wheels. I never allow an Athearn to escape
my shop without this step. See below:

Athearn wheels, though porous and rough as we know (perhaps aiding
traction a bit), get a shine that seems to help prevent dirt build-up
and aids current pick up. I've noticed no reduction in TE, but I seldom
work my engines to the limit. Since I always disassemble the trucks to
clean and lubricate as well as check for the chronic cracked gear
syndrome I remove all wheels when I build or repair an Athearn engine. I
put the wheel/axle stub in a drill press, and polish the tread surface
in three steps. Start with 400 emery and go to 600, then 800 or1000 grit
autobody emery with the part spinning pretty fast. I have run the pair
of F's at the museum two years now with no cleaning of wheels. Zero.
These two dedicated Museum property Athearn F's are both powered "super
power", pulling a string of 7 stainless redetailed Athearn cars. All but
one car has wipers on the axles for interior lights, adding to the drag.
There is one grade for them each time around of about 2% with a reverse
curve. Using transistor throttles on a fixed setting, they
prototypically slow down there. I've never detected a slip, but not
loaded them to the max as in a long freight consist.

I traded my BLI heavy Mike w/ DCC and sound (L&N 1776) to a fellow near
here for a DC sound equipped version BLI light Mike. The new engine will
become another NC&StL steamer, but for use at the museum on DC which is
preferred for simplicity. Sound is a big hit with visitors. The DC with
sound is interesting, and runs great. The sound is good, pretty-well
synchronized and sharp cut-offs till it gets to above maybe 50MPH, then
becomes a weird "shuffle". The engine I traded was DOA to the other guy,
much to my embarrassment having never failed me. We met at the store
where we did this swap to t-shoot(The Dixie Flyer, Wartrace
Tennssee...trackside on the old NC&StL) and yes, the engine was dead.
Shorted! Nothing getting hot except the power pack. I did a few things
and did some disassembly and re-checks, never finding a thing wrong. Put
the engine back together and lo-an-behold!, she works fine now. Not a
clue as to what was wrong. When I was in Industrial Electronic repair,
I ran into this scenario most of the time. One particular motor
controller kept coming back to us as non-functioning, and we never found
a problem with it. We finally decided the unit just like the looks of
the technician, so we took a picture of him and taped it inside the
cover. It shipped back to the customer with evidently never another
trouble. Electronics: BAHHH.

Health-wise I am much better, but have no stamina. Working on that....

Tom Knowles

On 1/7/2013 4:00 AM, emmettdene wrote:

rubbing alcohol works great for cleaning track. leaves no residue.
emmet d

--- In yardbirdtrains@...
, Mike Bauers wrote:

Goo Gone cleans and leaves an insulating layer behind. I've used it

and seen the layout go dead as a result the following morning.

Do try any kind of tuner cleaner on those wheels. Or go to one of

the good hardware stores, auto parts supply stores, or marine supply
stores and get a can of the electronic cleaner and conditioner you
find there.

Most of the time its a CRC product

Advanced Auto Parts has " CRC QD? Electronic Cleaner" for a bit over

$7 in a large spray can. Wet a Q-tip with it and wipe the driver tires
and other electrical surfaces with it.

You can do the same with your rails [wipe about 6-inches every

several feet apart then drive around the layout] and you'll see a
marked operating improvement in a matter of seconds.

Do the complete electrical path on the loco's and your track switch

points and you'll feel like you have gold plated electrical contacts
on everything. That includes even old zamak slabs that are part of the
electrical path on old models, treat contact points and any screws
that are part of the electrical paths.

Case in point, it makes an ancient Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster

that is largely a zamak electrical path and has sat for 20 years, run
like a new Kato after that treatment.... that and a wisp of fresh oil
and axle lube in the right places. This is my personal experience with
the stuff and that model as well as many others. Models that simply
never were known to run decently in the first place.

Don't overlook places like the body pads under the tender trucks and

the place where the washer like connector wire goes between the
locomotive and the tender. Back off such screws and wipe both the
threads and the contact area under the screw heads and the connector
'washer', then snug down to working positions.

I'm certain you will be amazed at how much better the model operates

when you have conditioned the electrical points that have become
oxidized and thus somewhat insulated over time........ with just a
certain fluid.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA



On Jan 6, 2013, at 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:

John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product

he recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon.
My drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I
have used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club,
my club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing
the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the
question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating
rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a
resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to
improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@...

, "John Hagen" wrote:

Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from

experience

about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual

comparison NS

has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.



My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary

Alco S-2

shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass

flywheels and Ernst

gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight

cars, all

with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to

NWSL NS

wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in

the yard.

That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that

really had

nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.



Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass

wheels would

have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO

around

1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.



So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and

sintered metal

work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay

but I agree

that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important

consideration to me is

having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that

arcing is

promoted.

Jeff,

An excellent discourse on model steamers. And this also applies to,
especially, older brass.

Denis

?

rubbing alcohol works great for cleaning track. leaves no residue.
emmet d

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Mike Bauers wrote:
>
> Goo Gone cleans and leaves an insulating layer behind. I've used it and seen the layout go dead as a result the following morning.
>
> Do try any kind of tuner cleaner on those wheels. Or go to one of the good hardware stores, auto parts supply stores, or marine supply stores and get a can of the electronic cleaner and conditioner you find there.
>
> Most of the time its a CRC product
>
> Advanced Auto Parts has " CRC QD? Electronic Cleaner" for a bit over $7 in a large spray can. Wet a Q-tip with it and wipe the driver tires and other electrical surfaces with it.
>
> You can do the same with your rails [wipe about 6-inches every several feet apart then drive around the layout] and you'll see a marked operating improvement in a matter of seconds.
>
> Do the complete electrical path on the loco's and your track switch points and you'll feel like you have gold plated electrical contacts on everything. That includes even old zamak slabs that are part of the electrical path on old models, treat contact points and any screws that are part of the electrical paths.
>
> Case in point, it makes an ancient Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster that is largely a zamak electrical path and has sat for 20 years, run like a new Kato after that treatment.... that and a wisp of fresh oil and axle lube in the right places. This is my personal experience with the stuff and that model as well as many others. Models that simply never were known to run decently in the first place.
>
> Don't overlook places like the body pads under the tender trucks and the place where the washer like connector wire goes between the locomotive and the tender. Back off such screws and wipe both the threads and the contact area under the screw heads and the connector 'washer', then snug down to working positions.
>
> I'm certain you will be amazed at how much better the model operates when you have conditioned the electrical points that have become oxidized and thus somewhat insulated over time........ with just a certain fluid.
>
> Best to ya...
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi, USA
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2013, at 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:
>
> > John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.
> >
> > Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "John Hagen" wrote:
> >>
> >> Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
> >> about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual comparison NS
> >> has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary Alco S-2
> >> shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels and Ernst
> >> gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight cars, all
> >> with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
> >> wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in the yard.
> >> That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
> >> nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels would
> >> have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
> >> 1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and sintered metal
> >> work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but I agree
> >> that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration to me is
> >> having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that arcing is
> >> promoted.
> >>
> >>
>

?

I haven't seen one of the MicroMark digital pull meters but I would
be concerned about accuracy of a hand held meter. Perhaps the instruction
sheet details how to give it a fixed mount.
I have a board about five foot long with track mounted on it. One end
has a pulley on the centerline of the track. A bit of fishing
monofiliment has a loop on one end to engage a coupler and a hook
on the other end where I hang a small pan. Pouring shot into the
pan gives me an adjustable load until the engine starts slipping.
Then I weigh the shot for the tractive effort. Little "saddlebags"
of shot are handy to add weight until I stop the slip or the amperage
starts getting too high.
Just leveling the board on the workbench with the weight hanging
off the end gives me repeatability enough for model work. Other
than the track, it was all just stuff I already had laying around.
Low tech, low cost, works for me.
Chuck Peck

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "twilight022765" wrote:
>
> Tom, do you think this device will work?
>
> Kind of sounds like something your doing with your scale set on it's side. If it is something you think that will work I think we have one of these at my club. I might have to shake some trees to find it but I believe I recall having been told it is there. I can use it to compare drawbar strength between the two locomotives, the L1 and H9. Which I think are the same HH motors, the L1's motor has a flywheel on it though.
>
>

Goo Gone cleans and leaves an insulating layer behind. I've used it and seen the layout go dead as a result the following morning.

Do try any kind of tuner cleaner on those wheels. Or go to one of the good hardware stores, auto parts supply stores, or marine supply stores and get a can of the electronic cleaner and conditioner you find there.

Most of the time its a CRC product

Advanced Auto Parts has " CRC QD? Electronic Cleaner" for a bit over $7 in a large spray can. Wet a Q-tip with it and wipe the driver tires and other electrical surfaces with it.

You can do the same with your rails [wipe about 6-inches every several feet apart then drive around the layout] and you'll see a marked operating improvement in a matter of seconds.

Do the complete electrical path on the loco's and your track switch points and you'll feel like you have gold plated electrical contacts on everything. That includes even old zamak slabs that are part of the electrical path on old models, treat contact points and any screws that are part of the electrical paths.

Case in point, it makes an ancient Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster that is largely a zamak electrical path and has sat for 20 years, run like a new Kato after that treatment.... that and a wisp of fresh oil and axle lube in the right places. This is my personal experience with the stuff and that model as well as many others. Models that simply never were known to run decently in the first place.

Don't overlook places like the body pads under the tender trucks and the place where the washer like connector wire goes between the locomotive and the tender. Back off such screws and wipe both the threads and the contact area under the screw heads and the connector 'washer', then snug down to working positions.

I'm certain you will be amazed at how much better the model operates when you have conditioned the electrical points that have become oxidized and thus somewhat insulated over time........ with just a certain fluid.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA



On Jan 6, 2013, at 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:

John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "John Hagen" wrote:

Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual comparison NS
has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.



My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary Alco S-2
shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels and Ernst
gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight cars, all
with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in the yard.
That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.



Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels would
have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.



So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and sintered metal
work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but I agree
that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration to me is
having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that arcing is
promoted.

Tom, do you think this device will work?

Kind of sounds like something your doing with your scale set on it's side. If it is something you think that will work I think we have one of these at my club. I might have to shake some trees to find it but I believe I recall having been told it is there. I can use it to compare drawbar strength between the two locomotives, the L1 and H9. Which I think are the same HH motors, the L1's motor has a flywheel on it though.

From: Tom Knowles
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Driver surfaces ? Brass or NS ?
To: yardbirdtrains@...
Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 4:57 AM

?

Well, it seems like your on the right track...er excuse the pun.

Yes, that digital pull meter look s like the ticket. OOps another one.. This is nice looking item and a reasonable price. If it has a peak-hold feature, even better.

I think if it were me, I would remove (unwire) the decoder and just wire the thing straight dc, and see how she does. .. Trouble-shooting 101: divide and conquer.

BTW, since we're on the subject, yes I have used ATF on many layouts since about 2000 with excellent results. Like Brylcreme..a little dab'l doya

Tom Knowles
NOTE NEW ADDRESS:  tomk@...

On 1/6/2013 7:55 PM, twilight022765 wrote:

?

Tom, do you think this device will work?

Kind of sounds like something your doing with your scale set on it's side. If it is something you think that will work I think we have one of these at my club. I might have to shake some trees to find it but I believe I recall having been told it is there. I can use it to compare drawbar strength between the two locomotives, the L1 and H9. Which I think are the same HH motors, the L1's motor has a flywheel on it though.

Let me state another observation I've made with the H9. When I set it up to operate in DC mode I don't always get a response from the locomotive. But when I set it back to operate in DCC the locomotive responds. Could this be a sign of a bad motor? Maybe like a car starter when it hits a dead spot and you have to whack it with a hammer? BTW, when I had set up the loco to run DC through the decoder the H9 moved very swiftly and seemed strong.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Tom Knowles wrote:
>
> Mark, It occurs to me you may have a bad HH motor if the problem is not
> traction related. Do I correctly understand its a traction problem? We
> may be able to quantify your problem:
>
> An interesting generalization that may translate into understanding your
> problem, is on rating a full size steam engine. I think it can translate
> to model engines (without traction tires). It's "factor of adhesion",
> expressed as a percentage. If an engine has specified a factor of
> adhesion, it is usually on the order of 25%. So if the engine weighs
> 100,000 lbs, then expect no more than 25,000 lbs of "drawbar pull"
> (sometimes called Tractive effort, or "TE") from it. This was measured
> by Dynamometer cars in the old days, with other computations
> complicating the use of the car and its results!
>
> I have experimented a bit with model TE, and found though the margin
> for error is greater since we're dealing with smaller numbers and less
> accurate systems to measure it, the numbers translate. If the engine
> weighs 16 0z, expect 4 oz TE. To measure this, I have used a postal
> scale, set on its side and zeroed for that position to verify this.
> Being a static measurement, its crude, but informative. One could
> measure the voltage and current during the session, but until anything
> moves, HP cannot be computed. If the engine slips in the test, then TE
> will be lower at that point since sliding friction is less than stopped
> friction. Incidentally, that is partly why steam engines at low speed
> have difficulty starting/accelerating sometimes, the pulses of power
> from each stroke unevenly apply force to the adhesion, a momentary
> overcoming of the adhesion will cause the wheel to slip. Electric power
> is smooother, and the high current required by as motor at stall
> translates to "force". This is an excellent situation for getting
> started and should be the case with electric driven model steamers.
>
> Try making a test track, set level, and employ some sort of measuring
> system to compare both your L's and the H and see what happens.....can
> you do this in DC and measure the voltage and current? Another way may
> be to simply raise one end of the test track and see what grade the
> engines will pull before slipping. If the H9 slips early, then I think
> you're still looking at traction problems.
>
> I would love to have a working dynamometer car that could radio out the
> results of all the parameters of a dynamic test in scale, but have lost
> too many brain cells to carry out that project at this age.. It may
> already be available in DCC if we knew how to read out the motor's back
> emf and load from the decoders that have this feature.
>
> Anyway, I think you are in the right forum to figure this out, bear with us!
>
> Tom Knowles
> NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...
>
> On 1/6/2013 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:
> >
> > John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he
> > recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My
> > drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have
> > used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my
> > club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing
> > the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the
> > question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating
> > rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a
> > resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to
> > improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.
> >
> > Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --- In yardbirdtrains@...
> > , "John Hagen" wrote:
> > >
> > > Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
> > > about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual
> > comparison NS
> > > has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary
> > Alco S-2
> > > shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels
> > and Ernst
> > > gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight
> > cars, all
> > > with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
> > > wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in
> > the yard.
> > > That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
> > > nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels
> > would
> > > have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
> > > 1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and
> > sintered metal
> > > work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but
> > I agree
> > > that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration
> > to me is
> > > having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that
> > arcing is
> > > promoted.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Hagen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: yardbirdtrains@...
> >
> > [mailto:yardbirdtrains@...
> > ]
> > > On Behalf Of Long95209
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 10:55 AM
> > > To: yardbirdtrains@...
> >
> > > Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Driver surfaces ? Brass or NS ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Batter up group ! There's been a LOT of discussion about whether or not
> > > there is a great deal of difference in materials , BTW Bowser had both
> > > surfaces [?] the majority of my collection is brass . Does it make a big
> > > difference ? I don't know for sure , but if the surfaces arean't clean ?
> > > Trouble ! Please jump in group ! Henry H.
> > >
> >
> >
>

I have to agree with Tom. Everybody I know blames the Hobbytown of Boston brass wheels for their stalling. A couple of years ago, I found that was not really true. What the problem really turned out was the electrical path from the truck frame through the loco frame and the mechanical path it goes through before it hits the motor. I added four sets of wipers directly to the red and black wires on the DCC Decoder on my brass wheeled NW-2 and don't get any stalling any longer. It runs just fine, even with brass wheels.

Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC

To: yardbirdtrains@...
From: tomk@...
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:15:57 -0600
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] A question about brass or nickle silver drivers





























Opinion: If the brass tires are kept
nice and clean, it should not make any difference. That said, I
have no experience in that to share. I'm pretty sure the Bowser
drivers are plated with a "silvery substance", but it is very thin
and wears or polishes away to reveal brass pretty quickly. I am
speaking of older Bowser, perhaps its different today?

Tom Knowles

On 1/5/2013 9:41 PM, twilight022765 wrote:






Does it make a difference in DCC if the drivers are brass
or nickle silver(I think they're nickle silver)? These are
Bowser drivers.

From: Tom Knowles
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] HE Historical Entities ?
To: yardbirdtrains@...
Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 4:58 AM

?

Now yer gonna make me blush.......

reminds me, maybe its time for some more pix....

Tom Knowles

On 1/6/2013 6:28 PM, Long95209 wrote:

?

More like ICONS in your case . Tell Mark where to look in your photo albums ! Great layout shots , great project threads . Henry

?

Does it make a difference in DCC if the drivers are brass or nickle silver(I think they're nickle silver)? These are Bowser drivers.

?

More like ICONS in your case . Tell Mark where to look in your photo albums ! Great layout shots , great project threads . Henry

?

Tom, do you think this device will work?

Kind of sounds like something your doing with your scale set on it's side. If it is something you think that will work I think we have one of these at my club. I might have to shake some trees to find it but I believe I recall having been told it is there. I can use it to compare drawbar strength between the two locomotives, the L1 and H9. Which I think are the same HH motors, the L1's motor has a flywheel on it though.

Let me state another observation I've made with the H9. When I set it up to operate in DC mode I don't always get a response from the locomotive. But when I set it back to operate in DCC the locomotive responds. Could this be a sign of a bad motor? Maybe like a car starter when it hits a dead spot and you have to whack it with a hammer? BTW, when I had set up the loco to run DC through the decoder the H9 moved very swiftly and seemed strong.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Tom Knowles wrote:
>
> Mark, It occurs to me you may have a bad HH motor if the problem is not
> traction related. Do I correctly understand its a traction problem? We
> may be able to quantify your problem:
>
> An interesting generalization that may translate into understanding your
> problem, is on rating a full size steam engine. I think it can translate
> to model engines (without traction tires). It's "factor of adhesion",
> expressed as a percentage. If an engine has specified a factor of
> adhesion, it is usually on the order of 25%. So if the engine weighs
> 100,000 lbs, then expect no more than 25,000 lbs of "drawbar pull"
> (sometimes called Tractive effort, or "TE") from it. This was measured
> by Dynamometer cars in the old days, with other computations
> complicating the use of the car and its results!
>
> I have experimented a bit with model TE, and found though the margin
> for error is greater since we're dealing with smaller numbers and less
> accurate systems to measure it, the numbers translate. If the engine
> weighs 16 0z, expect 4 oz TE. To measure this, I have used a postal
> scale, set on its side and zeroed for that position to verify this.
> Being a static measurement, its crude, but informative. One could
> measure the voltage and current during the session, but until anything
> moves, HP cannot be computed. If the engine slips in the test, then TE
> will be lower at that point since sliding friction is less than stopped
> friction. Incidentally, that is partly why steam engines at low speed
> have difficulty starting/accelerating sometimes, the pulses of power
> from each stroke unevenly apply force to the adhesion, a momentary
> overcoming of the adhesion will cause the wheel to slip. Electric power
> is smooother, and the high current required by as motor at stall
> translates to "force". This is an excellent situation for getting
> started and should be the case with electric driven model steamers.
>
> Try making a test track, set level, and employ some sort of measuring
> system to compare both your L's and the H and see what happens.....can
> you do this in DC and measure the voltage and current? Another way may
> be to simply raise one end of the test track and see what grade the
> engines will pull before slipping. If the H9 slips early, then I think
> you're still looking at traction problems.
>
> I would love to have a working dynamometer car that could radio out the
> results of all the parameters of a dynamic test in scale, but have lost
> too many brain cells to carry out that project at this age.. It may
> already be available in DCC if we knew how to read out the motor's back
> emf and load from the decoders that have this feature.
>
> Anyway, I think you are in the right forum to figure this out, bear with us!
>
> Tom Knowles
> NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...
>
> On 1/6/2013 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:
> >
> > John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he
> > recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My
> > drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have
> > used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my
> > club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing
> > the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the
> > question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating
> > rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a
> > resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to
> > improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.
> >
> > Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --- In yardbirdtrains@...
> > , "John Hagen" wrote:
> > >
> > > Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
> > > about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual
> > comparison NS
> > > has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary
> > Alco S-2
> > > shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels
> > and Ernst
> > > gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight
> > cars, all
> > > with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
> > > wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in
> > the yard.
> > > That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
> > > nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels
> > would
> > > have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
> > > 1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and
> > sintered metal
> > > work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but
> > I agree
> > > that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration
> > to me is
> > > having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that
> > arcing is
> > > promoted.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Hagen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: yardbirdtrains@...
> >
> > [mailto:yardbirdtrains@...
> > ]
> > > On Behalf Of Long95209
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 10:55 AM
> > > To: yardbirdtrains@...
> >
> > > Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Driver surfaces ? Brass or NS ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Batter up group ! There's been a LOT of discussion about whether or not
> > > there is a great deal of difference in materials , BTW Bowser had both
> > > surfaces [?] the majority of my collection is brass . Does it make a big
> > > difference ? I don't know for sure , but if the surfaces arean't clean ?
> > > Trouble ! Please jump in group ! Henry H.
> > >
> >
> >
>

hi Sean,

Two bottom pictures of the FAMOCO GG-I that might help a little
more. I know the FAMOCO had a revision at one time.


Jim H

Mark, It occurs to me you may have a bad HH motor if the problem is not
traction related. Do I correctly understand its a traction problem? We
may be able to quantify your problem:

An interesting generalization that may translate into understanding your
problem, is on rating a full size steam engine. I think it can translate
to model engines (without traction tires). It's "factor of adhesion",
expressed as a percentage. If an engine has specified a factor of
adhesion, it is usually on the order of 25%. So if the engine weighs
100,000 lbs, then expect no more than 25,000 lbs of "drawbar pull"
(sometimes called Tractive effort, or "TE") from it. This was measured
by Dynamometer cars in the old days, with other computations
complicating the use of the car and its results!

I have experimented a bit with model TE, and found though the margin
for error is greater since we're dealing with smaller numbers and less
accurate systems to measure it, the numbers translate. If the engine
weighs 16 0z, expect 4 oz TE. To measure this, I have used a postal
scale, set on its side and zeroed for that position to verify this.
Being a static measurement, its crude, but informative. One could
measure the voltage and current during the session, but until anything
moves, HP cannot be computed. If the engine slips in the test, then TE
will be lower at that point since sliding friction is less than stopped
friction. Incidentally, that is partly why steam engines at low speed
have difficulty starting/accelerating sometimes, the pulses of power
from each stroke unevenly apply force to the adhesion, a momentary
overcoming of the adhesion will cause the wheel to slip. Electric power
is smooother, and the high current required by as motor at stall
translates to "force". This is an excellent situation for getting
started and should be the case with electric driven model steamers.

Try making a test track, set level, and employ some sort of measuring
system to compare both your L's and the H and see what happens.....can
you do this in DC and measure the voltage and current? Another way may
be to simply raise one end of the test track and see what grade the
engines will pull before slipping. If the H9 slips early, then I think
you're still looking at traction problems.

I would love to have a working dynamometer car that could radio out the
results of all the parameters of a dynamic test in scale, but have lost
too many brain cells to carry out that project at this age.. It may
already be available in DCC if we knew how to read out the motor's back
emf and load from the decoders that have this feature.

Anyway, I think you are in the right forum to figure this out, bear with us!

Tom Knowles
NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...

On 1/6/2013 12:44 PM, twilight022765 wrote:

John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he
recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My
drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have
used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my
club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing
the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the
question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating
rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a
resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to
improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@...
, "John Hagen" wrote:

Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual

comparison NS

has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.



My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary

Alco S-2

shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels

and Ernst

gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight

cars, all

with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in

the yard.

That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.



Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels

would

have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.



So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and

sintered metal

work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but

I agree

that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration

to me is

having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that

arcing is

promoted.



John Hagen



From: yardbirdtrains@...

[mailto:yardbirdtrains@...
]

On Behalf Of Long95209
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 10:55 AM
To: yardbirdtrains@...

Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Driver surfaces ? Brass or NS ?





Batter up group ! There's been a LOT of discussion about whether or not
there is a great deal of difference in materials , BTW Bowser had both
surfaces [?] the majority of my collection is brass . Does it make a big
difference ? I don't know for sure , but if the surfaces arean't clean ?
Trouble ! Please jump in group ! Henry H.

John, one of the guys in my earlier posts responded with a product he recommends called Flitz, which I just order last night on Amazon. My drivers on my H9 are brass(probably worn down to the brass???). I have used Goo Gone to clean them. But, as he mentioned about his club, my club's rails can get quite dirty and maybe the Goo Gone isn't doing the trick anymore. So, I want to give that a try. The reason for the question was, my L1, that is set up the same way as my H9 is operating rather nicely and has the NS drivers. It's like some one put a resistor in line with the motor on the H9. This will be my last try to improve the conductivity before I add the pickups.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered their helpful advice.

Mark

--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "John Hagen" wrote:

Well I can't say much about brass vs NS but I can speak from experience
about the difference between sintered metal and NS. By actual comparison NS
has comparatively poor adhesion on NS track.



My "Athearn" Baldwin S-12 with an Cary built (lead-antimony) Cary Alco S-2
shell along with added lead, a Sagami 2032 motor w/brass flywheels and Ernst
gears was able to easily switch a cut of 56 5 oz. 40 ft. freight cars, all
with C.V. trucks on my friends (Cal) layout. After the switch to NWSL NS
wheels it hard a hard time moving anything over 40 of the cars in the yard.
That coincided with Cal's change to Command Control but that really had
nothing to do with it as the problem was wheel slip.



Although not a direct comparison, my thoughts are that brass wheels would
have similar traction to the sintered metal. Having started on HO around
1949 I have much experience with brass drive wheels.



So far as cleanliness if one's track is clean kept brass and sintered metal
work just fine. So far as electrical pick-up all will work okay but I agree
that NS gets a bit of the nod here. A more important consideration to me is
having reasonable clean rail without being so clean and dry that arcing is
promoted.