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--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "john" wrote:
>
> As Dave said, there should be no contiunity between the communtator segments and the motor shaft if the brushes are both isolated. Try removing the brushes completely and retest. If you still have continuity, then the motor is indeed toast unless you want to rewind it, if you don't indicates that motor brushes are not properly insulated.
> If it occassionaly stalls at low speed and requires a push to start, it's a sign of a possible dead or shorted commutator segment. Once again way to check it is to mark motor with sharpy, and note if it always stalls in the same place. Ammeter will tell you if you have a short or open circuit.
> JBB
>
> --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "bondkarl777" kbkchooch@ wrote:
> >
> > Then a segment must be shorted to the motor shaft, to the motor frame, then to the loco frame. The only way I can get it t0 not smoke the decoder is to put capton tape under the motor, and use a nylon screw. Then it runs, but gear mesh issues occur when the motor rocks back and disengages the axle gear. Nylon screws are about as tough as a wet noodle.
> > Already emailed Dan, going for the can motor kit as soon as he gets more in (next week?) 40 years of hard running, it deserves a new motor!!
> >
> >
> > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "trainsnwrcs" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No. Motor shaft runs in metal oillite bearings inserted into the frame.
> > > Short, on purpose.
> > > If you have continuity from the commutator segements, and of them, to the shaft, it's toast.
> > > I thought that was what we had been discussing?
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Im quite certain its the motor
> > > >
> > > > The brushes were not insulated til all the soldering was done. With the motor out of the engine, my continuity tester shows a short between the motor frame and the end of the motor shaft at the gear.
> > > > sometimes it accelerated from a stop fine, sometimes you have to "thunk" the motor to get it ti run, low speed operation is erratic, but the headlight never flickers so pickup is ok.
> > > >
> > > > If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it must be a duck. My motor is a duck!
> > > >
> > > > I think its time for a Humper with a flywheel/gear!
> > > >
> > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "john" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Does it run ok on DC? If motor is shorting intermittently it may still run ok on DC, but short will show up a "bump" on the needle of an ammeter...the finer the scale on your meter the easier it is to see. Try running as slowly as possible as short and therefore bump will last longer/be bigger. If no meter, try running as slowly as possible, Does it stall? If so mark segment of armature with sharpie. Try again...if it stalls in the same place as you made your mark, examine an see if you can spot trouble at this point. If it stalls randomly, it's either pickup or mechanical, not motor.
> > > > > 2. I think it more probable than not that there is a short somewhere other than the motor. make sure the insulation is ok on the brush where you added it. I've seen guys melt it while soldering DCC lead.
> > > > > Try running on DCC w/o boiler shell. If works ok, problem is probably RH motor brush or wiring rubbing on boiler shell. This won't cause problem on DC as RH brush and boiler shell is grounded thru frame and RH drivers....it will raise hell with DCC though. Try insulating both motor brushes and inside of boiler shell with tape. If that works ok, you can either just run as is, or try to figure out what's making contact with what and solve the problem by grinding it away with your moto tool.
> > > > > 3. make sure all DCC connections are well insulated, preferably with shrink tubing. DCC is WAY more senstive to shorts than DCC since loco is picking up full track power at all times.
> > > > > jbb
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "rxensen" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had no problems making mine DCC by insulating the brushes.
> > > > > > I was addressing the shorted armature. I agree. That the sharp edge a old wire ( heat does't help) can cut the insulation.
> > > > > > I have not encountered this, but sure can see how it would happen. Working with different motors I have found the can motor, with many hours of use, short out from brush dust.
> > > > > > Ron
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "trainsnwrcs" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The pole pieces where the wires wind has sharp edges. Usually they are wrapped with protective coverings. Over time those coverings can dry, crumble, fracture, shift....and all it takes is one wire piece touching the pole piece.
> > > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Help me out. I think you are saying if any segment is shorted to the brush armature segment, you will have a problem.
> > > > > > > > The steel shaft is directly connected to the steel part which the motor wire is wound on.
> > > > > > > > The insulated winding wire must not be shorted to the steel segments.
> > > > > > > > My explanation may just confuse things.
> > > > > > > > Ron christensen not related to the man with the very expensive brass engine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "trainsnwrcs" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ah. You can have a ground back thropugh the armature. Have one here with that very issue (been waiting for a couple of years for the supplier to send a good one).
> > > > > > > > > If the armature shaft has grounded to any winding anywhere, you have a path.
> > > > > > > > > Remove the brushes completely and check again.
> > > > > > > > > You may need a new motor, or at least a good armature.
> > > > > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Guys, Its together, it runs, the lights work, BUT....Here's one for the
> > > > > > > > > > more experienced DCC/open frame motor guys.As I stated earlier, I fried
> > > > > > > > > > the 1st decoder, after programming, but it only ran about a foot or so
> > > > > > > > > > before it stalled. So I grabbed an old DH121 and wired it in. In the
> > > > > > > > > > process of putting in a new decoder I found 2 issues. 1 was a bad bind
> > > > > > > > > > in the mechanism caused by my own fat fingers. (easily fixed) The 2nd
> > > > > > > > > > was the discovery of an electrical path from the armature to the chassis
> > > > > > > > > > , through the motor frame. So I installed Capton tape along the bottom
> > > > > > > > > > of the motor and put a nylon screw into the motor instead of the steel
> > > > > > > > > > one. Electrical path solved, I reprogrammed the engine, and it ran.
> > > > > > > > > > However, under load or quickly reversing you can hear the gears slip as
> > > > > > > > > > the engine moves on the nylon screw....It never did this in DC. So my
> > > > > > > > > > question is, was the Nylon screw and tape unnecessary? I don't know if
> > > > > > > > > > It was the bind that fried the decoder, or the electrical path on the
> > > > > > > > > > motor, or what?? What do you guys do? [:-/] I'll try to add some pics to
> > > > > > > > > > my album of the little guy, looks great with the added valve gear!Karl
> > > > > > > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., Victor Bitleris
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You can shim the rear end of the motor a bit to help with the mesh.
> > > > > > > > > > If you use a piece of flat rubber, from a rubber band or something, it
> > > > > > > > > > will provide an easy adjustment by tightening or loosening the motor
> > > > > > > > > > screw. If you really like the little loco and want a better, more
> > > > > > > > > > permanent solution, use one of Dan's can motors with a worm fly or a
> > > > > > > > > > Helix Humper. That way you can use a DZ125 or similar.Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Vic Bitleris
> > > > > > > > > > > Raleigh, NC
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To: yardbirdtrains@...
> > > > > > > > > > > From: kbkchooch@
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:52:30 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Little six redux
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > > Got the DCC in last night, but not before I fried 1 decoder :-(
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I insulated the brushes, still put a burn mark on the decoder right
> > > > > > > > > > where the red wire goes into the motor drivers...I'll call NCE today and
> > > > > > > > > > throw myself at Larry's feet... In the meantime I checked my decoder
> > > > > > > > > > stock, and the only thing I had that fit was an old Digitrash DH121....
> > > > > > > > > > Oh well, better than nothing!!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Got it in and running last night, put capton tape under the motor, now
> > > > > > > > > > the gear isn't meshing quite right,,,,gonna futz with that later.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Headlight is in, 2 bisecting holes in the casting an a wire
> > > > > > > > > > pic,,,,,pics to follow
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "rxensen" wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I recently put DCC in a old 6, It was almost a drop in as the motor
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't have to be isolated only the brushes. A wire under the cylinder
> > > > > > > > > > casting and a wire under a screw in the tender will make the electric
> > > > > > > > > > connections, than the 2 wires to the brushes.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now a light in front HUM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I could take a picture if you are interested.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Christensen
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In yardbirdtrains@..., "bondkarl777" wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a little story of a little engine and a big mistake, and a
> > > > > > > > > > recovery.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Part 1, 13 year old boy and his Dad built a Mantua kit, their 2nd
> > > > > > > > > > loco project. Kid runs the snot out of the engine, then girls enter his
> > > > > > > > > > life, and the little engine gets packed away. 15 or so years pass, the
> > > > > > > > > > little engine comes out of storage. It's a bit stiff, seems noisier,
> > > > > > > > > > gets fresh paint and decals, and sees limited use, til DCC comes along.
> > > > > > > > > > Relegated to a display case, more years pass. Finally it's pulled from
> > > > > > > > > > mothballs and taken to the workbench for a mechanical overhaul, relube,
> > > > > > > > > > new valve gear and conversion to DCC.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > After being stripped down mechanically , cleaned, contact surfaces
> > > > > > > > > > polished, lubed and retested, still seemed a little weak. An upgrade in
> > > > > > > > > > motor magnets seemed in order. So far, so good.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Then I got new/used valve gear. Here's where the fun starts. If
> > > > > > > > > > you have a "little six", don't get valve gear for a "big six". Just cuz
> > > > > > > > > > its a six, doesn't mean it will fit! I had to mix and match everything
> > > > > > > > > > from the 2 kits together, and even then still had to raid my old parts
> > > > > > > > > > bin for the eccentric and the rod attached to it.( from a Penn Line
> > > > > > > > > > Atlantic) I remember riveting valve linkage when I was 13, and had saved
> > > > > > > > > > a lot of spare rivets from old Mantua and Bowser kits over the years. At
> > > > > > > > > > the age of 52, I don't remember them being so damn small! Eventually it
> > > > > > > > > > all was assembled, and the wife had learned how to properly peen over a
> > > > > > > > > > rivet! Then 2 hours on the test track, nothing fell off!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, since electric is only picked p on the first 2 drivers,
> > > > > > > > > > today I fashioned a wiper from a Kaydee spring and installed it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tomorrow, (if it doesn't snow) I'll go to my LHS and pick up a
> > > > > > > > > > decoder. I'll try to attach a pic so far, stay tuned!
> > > > > > > > > > >
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