Mike, ? Your explanation of self-lapping vs older brake valves reminded me that subway cars built before WW II for the various NYC systems were not self-lapping.? They had the designation ME-23.? (Don¡¯t ask me why I still remember this stuff.)? Post WW II cars had self-lapping brakes, designated ME-42.? I think these designations were Westinghouse Air Brake models. ? This is an interesting thread. ? Phil Burton ? ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Tisdale via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 12:31 PM
To: observationcar@...; ObservationCar@...; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ObservationCar] 112 years old and still in service? I don't know what Transport Canada's rules are, but I could see how an older brake stand that is not self lapping could be banned. If self lapping sounds like your dog or cat bathing itself, please bear with me if you know some or all of this... Air brakes function by charging the brake line to release the brakes and reducing the pressure in the brake line to apply the brakes.? In general, in North America, freight brake lines are pressurized to 90 psi, passenger to 110 psi.? To apply the brakes, a certain reduction in the brake line air pressure is made, typically 15 psi for a service application.?? A brake valve has several positions.? Release pressurizes the brake line and releases the brakes.? Lap holds the air pressure in the line at whatever it is, neither reducing it or increasing it.? Then there are service, full service and emergency positions.? In emergency, the brake pipe pressure is reduced to 0 as quickly as possible.? The triple valves on the cars will dump the air as well as the locomotive brake stand in emergency, that is why when a locomotive uncouples from a train without the angle cock on the air line being closed, you will hear the air dump from all the cars in the train.? It you hear this while riding a passenger train, brace yourself, the train is going to stop quickly.?? Sorry for the digression, back to the brake valve.? When the engineer moves the brake handle to service, the brake pipe reduction is made through the valve on the locomotive, rather than applying nearly instantly on all cars as happens when the train goes into emergency.?? With a modern, self lapping brake valve, the engineer can put the brake handle to service, the brake valve will make a 15 psi reduction, then close or lap the brake pipe exhaust, limiting the reduction to 15 psi.? With an older, non-self lapping brake valve, the engineer has to move the handle to the lap position to hold the brake pipe reduction at 15 psi, otherwise the brake pipe reduction will continue and the train will eventually go into emergency. If an engineer is used to modern, self lapping brake valves, and he encounters an older one that does not self lap, he might inadvertently? put the train into emergency, which can cause the train to jackknife and derail or, at best, it will cause the train to stop where, perhaps, it was not supposed to, and have to remain stopped until brake pipe pressure can be restored. I'm guessing that is why Transport Canada doesn't want non self lapping brake valves in regular service on common carrier railroads.? Museums are one thing as the crews on them probably only encounter older brake valves on their engines and know to act accordingly, but having one engine with an old brake valve on a common carrier could cause trouble. Mike Tisdale...realizing that this isn't quite railroad "art" or "literature", but might be useful to know. ? Very correct. To be fair the owners were connected to and part owners of
museum train operations not far away, but when the museum/excursion
train group wanted to do for profit freight, they split and created a
new company. The new company 30 years later is now this, hauling approx
20,000 cars/year using vintage locomotives that yes, a museum would be
proud to own, but OSR is just as proud and it shows.
I cannot elaborate too much on the brakestand rules - but my
understanding is Transport Canada does regulate what type of stand is
allowed to be used. The older style brake stands and braking systems
from the 1940's or early 1950's is rarely found in operating railways in
Canada and while these older brakestands have been allowed in the past,
transport canada has essentially de-certified them for revenue freight
operation and they are no longer allowed to be used. So you have a
choice - retrofit with new braking systems (and a control stand for the
Engineer) or donate it to a museum. The owner has mentioned to me it's
likely to be donated to a nearby museum.
My understanding is what's in #51 is a much older system such as a 6L.
There are still some older braking systems/stands in use in museum
operations however. Again i'm uncertain how all of this is regulated,
but the railways are all inspected by Transport Canada regularly and
highly likely the rules are a bit like restaurant health violations -
depends on the inspector and type of service of the railway, and the
safety procedures of the company in question.
Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the older brake stand types - such
as 24L and 26L.
On 2019-12-31 13:17, 'Phil Burton' philip-b@... [ObservationCar]
wrote:
> Steve,
>
> This is an operating property, a for-profit operation, but is sure
> sounds like a diesel loco museum.
>
> Can you elaborate on the "ancient brakestand outlawed."
>
> Phil Burton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ObservationCar@...
> [mailto:ObservationCar@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 5:53 AM
> To: ObservationCar@...
> Subject: RE: [ObservationCar] 112 years old and still in service
>
> Yes sir. OSR rosters 3 F units in daily operation, among st a
> smattering of other power.
>
> At Salford, they have a mostly EMD roster of SW1200's (4), GP7's (2) -
> high hood (one in faded Chessie paint), GP9's (2) , the three F units,
> and a single RS-23 and a large deadline of MLW/ALCO locomotives plus
> the only painted TH&B diesel left, NW2 #52 (Operating, but has an
> ancient brakestand outlawed by Transport Canada so cannot be used and
> is parked front of the deadline by shop - photograph-able)
>
> At Guelph they use RS18's RS23's, M420's and a couple EMD GP9's - a
> guaranteed MLW(ALCO) find as they run two jobs per day and the MLW's
> make up 75% of the roster in Guelph.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On 2019-12-30 19:33, 'Phil Burton' philip-b@...
> [ObservationCar]
> wrote:
>> Steve,
>>
>> I doubt that I will ever find myself in Salford, ON, but this is still
>> a fascinating story. The age of the snowplow, the fact that the
>> interior resembles a WW 2 tender, and that it is still in active
>> service on a non-museum property.
>>
>> Is the F unit 6508 used in daily operations?
>>
>> Phil Burton
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ObservationCar@...
>> [mailto:ObservationCar@...]
>> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 1:53 PM
>> To: ObservationCar@...
>> Subject: Re: [ObservationCar] 112 years old and still in service
>>
>> My pleasure. If you ever find yourself at the OSR shop in Salford,
>> Ontario (1 hour west of Toronto) if you ask nicely they'll surely let
>> you in to have a look.
>>
>> what's remarkable with the OSR piece is how the interior resembles, in
>> most facets, the same style interior of a world war 2 or older CPR
>> wooden caboose - the familiar green walls, white roof, and red seating
>> areas and floor. Usually the stove would have been replaced from coal
>> to oil at some point in the late 60's or early 70's but I don't
>> remember if this one was coal or oil when I was last inside it 4 years
>> ago.
>>
>> This plow was built 1907 and rebuilt in 1927 - likely steel clad at
>> that time of rebuild from wood - I imagine the interior had not
>> changed much if at all after rebuild. Exterior retained the same
>> appearance post 1927 until 2017 after which OSR was forced to put
>> their name on it after purchase of the equipment from CPR.
>>
>> But it is most certainly a time machine inside and out.
>>
>> We're discussing this equipment on railpictures.ca over the last few
>> days and the CPR had begun a program to rebuild plows around 2015/6 -
>> including new trucks without friction bearings. Not many seem to have
>> been completed but there are so few in active service it's hard to
>> find information on them - seems to be only one photo on the Internet
>> so far of a 20th century rebuild. The one example was completely
>> repainted in a more modern paint scheme.
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2019-12-30 14:50, matejka53@... [ObservationCar] wrote:
>>> Very cool - it would be interesting to date some of these plows, or
>>> others that were fabricated out of old locomotive tender frames.
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing
>>>
>>> Mike Matejka
>>> Normal IL
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stephen Host steve@... [ObservationCar]
>>> <ObservationCar@...>
>>> To: ObservationCar <ObservationCar@...>
>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 30, 2019 10:06 am
>>> Subject: [ObservationCar] 112 years old and still in service
>>>
>>> Hi members,
>>>
>>> Most railway equipment rarely sees service beyond 50 years, but MOW
>>> equipment can continue in company service indefinitely. Here's one
>>> example, the venerable Snowplow. Now on the Ontario Southland Railway
>>>
>>> roster, this example is now 112 years old and awaiting the call to
>>> duty assuming winter is strong enough to need it, So far, too much
>>> rain.
>>> Plows are usually called to duty around the 1st to 2'nd week of
>>> January if winter comes on strong enough, and in winters of
>>> 2014/5/6/8 it most certainly was, 401005 was out at least once each
>>> winter by then.
>>>
>>> But the Winters of 2014/2015 were strongest seen in decades, plows
>>> were called upwards of 2 dozen times in those years and as you can
>>> imagine, it was well photographed as a result. Here's a photo from
>>> those very busy times.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm crossing fingers 2020 is good because it's just too much fun to
>>> watch and photograph. I'm also lucky to be only 45 minutes away from
>>> two railways that regularly use a Snowplow.
>>>
>>> Cheers all!
>>>
>>> - Steve Host
>>> Guelph, Ontario
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>> Posted by: matejka53@...
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Posted by: Stephen Host <steve@...>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
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>> ------------------------------------
>> Posted by: "Phil Burton" <philip-b@...>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> For ObsCar "tech support" or questions about posting or list
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>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Stephen Host <steve@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> For ObsCar "tech support" or questions about posting or list
> etiquette, please flag down List Co-Owner Mike Tisdale at
> tisdalem@..., Moderator Sam Carlson at hispeedpacer@...,
> Co-Moderator Bryce Lee at thb301@....
>
> For a better understanding of some group discussions), please check
> out the "ObsCar FAQs" in the Database section of ObsCar. For
> the benefit of list members and digest readers, please remember to
> sign your full name to your posts and delete any excess text from
> replies. Thank You.
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Phil Burton" <philip-b@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
> For ObsCar "tech support" or questions about posting or list
> etiquette, please flag down List Co-Owner Mike Tisdale at
> tisdalem@..., Moderator Sam Carlson at hispeedpacer@...,
> Co-Moderator Bryce Lee at thb301@....
>
> For a better understanding of some group discussions), please check
> out the "ObsCar FAQs" in the Database section of ObsCar. For
> the benefit of list members and digest readers, please remember to
> sign your full name to your posts and delete any excess text from
> replies. Thank You.
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>
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>
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For ObsCar "tech support" or questions about posting or list etiquette, please flag down List Co-Owner Mike Tisdale at tisdalem@..., Moderator Sam Carlson at hispeedpacer@..., Co-Moderator Bryce Lee at thb301@....
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