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Spindle control
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Spencer Chase
开云体育I have ordered the Automation Tech spindle motor. Since i do not have room for the 80 mm water cooled one, i got them to sell me the 110 volt inverter (not listed on the web site separately)this is the page for the 220 volt version which has a link for a manual. unfortunately the manual is in Chenglish and is very verbose including all sorts of details not really needed for basic setup. i should get the thing on Friday and want to be ready to get it working right away. I am wondering what the best way to control it from Mach3 might be. The inverter has 10 volt control for speed. Have to read the manual again (a real struggle, maybe there are native Chenglish speakers in the group) to see how the 10 volt control works. the manual is a dump of 58 pages without index table of contents etc. i guess they assume that you want to read it cover to cover and memorize each setup detail etc. i just want a quick start guide and a few wiring diagrams. anyway i only need one direction so i am hoping i can use Mach3 PWM output to switch a little FET board I have, connected to a 10 volt source (or 12 if i am careful to set up Mach3 to never go above 10 volts) and use this for the voltage follower input. otherwise i can just use a relay to control the forward switch as i am doing with my KB controller now. if anyone has used one of these and has digested the manual please let me know what is important or not. also any ideas on speed control would be appreciated. it would be ideal if i could use different speeds for different parts of the program but it is not essential at this point. -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育i read it all but it is for an air cooled spindle and the most important point relates only to air cooled fans etc. mine is water cooled so i don't have to worry about that aspect. i assume you run the cooling water all the time the machine is running even if the spindle is stopped.i still need to know the best way to control the speed if i decide i want to. still don't know if mach3 will pwm the step or direction pin assigned to spindle in ports and pins if i choose pwm control in spindle setup. if so i just need to connect an FET driver to a voltage source to get what i need for the voltage following input of theVFD still need to know if it is possible to have one spindle PWM controlled and the other one on/off without PWM control. On 3/10/2015 3:53 PM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Mach3 can be set up to generate PWM on any pin that you like.
This is done with the dialog at Config > Ports and Pins > Motor Outputs. Fill in the desired PWM pin under Step for the Spindle Motor. Then go to the Config > Ports and Pins > Spindle Setup and look for the Motor Control section and put a check mark in the Use Spindle Motor Output and the PWM Control boxes. You may also want to configure the Relay Control and the Flood/Mist Control (as an alternate way to control the second spindle). This is a two step process. After you assign an Output number, go back to the Output Signals page and assign an actual pin to the outputs that you used. The traditional way to control modern VFDs with analog inputs is to use an interface that converts the PWM signal into an isolated analog voltage. Our PMDX-107 is one such device, but it is not that difficult to build your own. The PMDX-107 does not use a separate control signal from Mach3 to turn the spindle on and off. It monitors the PWM to decide when to turn the spindle on. Mach3 turns the PWM completely off if the M5 spindle off command is issued. Running two spindles will require that you take direct control of the spindle on/off signals or move the command for the second spindle to something other than M5 if you plan to use a PMDX-107 for the first spindle. I would recommend that you use the Flood/Mist controls as a way to run the second spindle. Steve Stallings www.PMDX.com |
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Most VFDs accpt a control coltage in the 0-10V range and supply a 10v power supply for powering a conversion circuit. It is prudent to put an opto-isolater to isolate this supply from your breakout board's 0V reference as some spindle speed controllers have their reference near mains potential. Rather than building one yourself you may want to look at purchasing a readymade converter such as the DC-03V3 that we produce and sell. It should do what you need and also has a couple of small relays for controlling the VFDs, FWD/REV and RUN/STOP inputs. http://www.homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=21 ? Cheers, ? Peter --------------------------- i read it all but it is for an air cooled spindle and the most important point relates only to air cooled fans etc. mine is water cooled so i don't have to worry about that aspect. i assume you run the cooling water all the time the machine is running even if the spindle is stopped. Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育i read the manual for the DC-03V3 and it all makes sense pretty much. it looks like this will be a better solution to using an FET board because it must have some time integration that would be necessary for a low speed PWM signal as well as voltage isolation.since i only need CW rotation for both spindles, it looks like i can use one relay to control the main spindle that responds to M3 and the reverse relay that responds to M4 to control the second spindle. this must be what i have set up now. if this is so, then any speed over 0 with M4 would turn on the CCW relay that could be used to control the second spindle that does not need PWM control. the PWM signal would be present but could be ignored by the second spindle as only the relay is needed to enable it. do i have it right? i will probably start using manual control of the VFD and and second spindle using the relays that are currently controlled by M3 and M4 but will buy the DC-03V3 controller if i decide i do need sped control from the program. please correct me if i have any of this wrong. On 3/10/2015 9:57 PM, Peter
groups@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Hi Spencer,
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One or both relays on the DC-03 can be controlled separately from the spindle control if desired. In normal use they are controlled via the M3 and M4 commands on the Mach3 spindle setup tab, but you could use them for other uses as well. If you wanted to you could control two VFDs with the one DC-03. You could; 1. Connect VA+ to the +10V terminal on one VFD 2. Connect AVgnd to the 0V terminal on both VFDs 3. Connect the AVout to the Control voltage input on both VFDs 4. Connect Relay one to the FWD or RUN terminal on one VFD 5. Connect Relay two to the FWD or RUN terminal on the other VFD You can then use M3 to run on one VFD and M4 to run the other. If you have maximum spindle speeds on the two spindles, use the pulley selection so that pulley 1 is used on the first spindle and pulley 2 on the 2nd. The DC-03 can also be used with spindles that use a +/-10V control voltage inputs where a -ve voltage reversed the spindle direction. The two relays can be wired so that when a M3 is issued the DC-03 presents a positive voltage to the spindle controller, and then presents a -negative voltage to the controller when an M4 is issued. By having indepentant control of the two onboard relays they can be used to implement a wider range of control variants. Cheers, Peter On 11/03/2015 5:59 PM, Spencer Chase lists@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
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Spencer Chase
开云体育Sounds good, will buy the DC-03 when i decide i need program control. need to get the motor working first and determine if i can get a better finish by varying the speed for different cuts. i am trying to produce a part that does not require sanding so i have to fiddle with every rough and finish and cleanup cut.On 3/11/2015 1:27 AM, Peter Homann
groups@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育i got my motor and had the mill head bored to accept it. all is ready to test. i have the Huanyang 110 volt inverter that came with the instructions for the 220 volt input version. should not be much difference but i am still a little hesitant to hook it up and destroy things. i have an 800 watt motor, water cooled.any recommendations on setting that might be critical? i did get a manual but it is very difficult to digest. it sort of looks like factory defaults might be OK. the manual has all the details but no quick start guide. is there any risk in running it for a minute or two without cooling? i would like to bench test it before hooking up the pump and water supply. On 3/10/2015 3:53 PM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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ralph.tuttle
开云体育Setting up the VFD may be problematic. It will not hurt the motor for short spins. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Spencer Chase lists@... [mach1mach2cnc]" <mach1mach2cnc@...> Date: 03/13/2015 6:43 PM (GMT-06:00) To: mach1mach2cnc@... Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Spindle control ?
i got my motor and had the mill head bored to accept it. all is
ready to test. i have the Huanyang 110 volt inverter that came with
the instructions for the 220 volt input version. should not be much
difference but i am still a little hesitant to hook it up and
destroy things. i have an 800 watt motor, water cooled. On 3/10/2015 3:53 PM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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I have my Huanyang running under Mach3 control thru the RS485 port and a plugin for Mach. Steve From: "'ralph.tuttle' ralph.tuttle@... [mach1mach2cnc]" To: mach1mach2cnc@... Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Spindle control Setting up the VFD may be problematic. It will not hurt the motor for short spins. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Spencer Chase lists@... [mach1mach2cnc]" Date: 03/13/2015 6:43 PM (GMT-06:00) To: mach1mach2cnc@... Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: Spindle control ?
i got my motor and had the mill head bored to accept it. all is
ready to test. i have the Huanyang 110 volt inverter that came with
the instructions for the 220 volt input version. should not be much
difference but i am still a little hesitant to hook it up and
destroy things. i have an 800 watt motor, water cooled. any recommendations on setting that might be critical? i did get a manual but it is very difficult to digest. it sort of looks like factory defaults might be OK. the manual has all the details but no quick start guide. is there any risk in running it for a minute or two without cooling? i would like to bench test it before hooking up the pump and water supply. On 3/10/2015 3:53 PM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育I got my Huanyang 110 volt input VFD working with the 800 watt water cooled motor from Automation Tech. The motor is very nice looking and very quiet. I checked all the basic parameters to make sure nothing was dangerously wrong. Set up functions to do basically what the old motor did. Disabled reverse, set to use switch for forward. Changed ramp time to .5 seconds and did a few other things. The manual does have all the necessary information spread throughout in a not very well presented manner. I am used to manuals that have basic setup first and that tell you things like button press sequences to get things working. Also a big fan of reference in a manual matching what is in the device. None of that with this manual. Still I managed to get it working.If there is interest (unless it was done already) i might write a simple quick start guide for these inverters. An explanation of the basic concepts such as multifunction ins and outs and step by step instructions for programming and also what the parameters really mean in terms of actual use instead of theoretical (especially when terms do not match from one place to another) would also be useful. It would be good to have others read what i write to make sure i understand it and that it it not as confusing as the original manual. On 3/14/2015 6:33 AM, Stephen Muscato
elko_dude@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Hi Spencer
That would be an excellent project that would get many readers. , had much information and also a couple of guides in it. He didn't seem to find it very useful. You are correct tht the existing manual is not very user friendly and it is little wonder that so many people need extra help and support. I am certain that a well written manual of the sort you describe would be warmly received by many people. See also this m written by seafurymike, and this more written by myself. ---In mach1mach2cnc@..., <lists@...> wrote :
I got my Huanyang 110 volt input VFD working with the 800 watt water
cooled motor from Automation Tech. The motor is very nice looking
and very quiet. I checked all the basic parameters to make sure
nothing was dangerously wrong. Set up functions to do basically what
the old motor did. Disabled reverse, set to use switch for forward.
Changed ramp time to .5 seconds and did a few other things. The
manual does have all the necessary information spread throughout in
a not very well presented manner. I am used to manuals that have
basic setup first and that tell you things like button press
sequences to get things working. Also a big fan of reference in a
manual matching what is in the device. None of that with this
manual. Still I managed to get it working. If there is interest (unless it was done already) i might write a simple quick start guide for these inverters. An explanation of the basic concepts such as multifunction ins and outs and step by step instructions for programming and also what the parameters really mean in terms of actual use instead of theoretical (especially when terms do not match from one place to another) would also be useful. It would be good to have others read what i write to make sure i understand it and that it it not as confusing as the original manual. |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育I did find the first link somewhat useful but I have a water cooled motor and an inverter that does not show up in the manual. I might have made a mistake in what i bought. I was using a 110 to 220 volt transformer and thought i could get rid of it if i bought the 110volt input inverter that it seemed should put out 220 volts for a 220 volt motor. There is a package on Auto Tech's site that has a 1500 watt motor and a 110 volt input inverter. The motor is 220 volt so I thought it was no problem to get the smaller motor (no room for the bigger one) as they are both 229 volt motors.The thing works but it seems a little weaker than i really want and will probably have to upgrade to the 1500 watt motor when i have use of my shop to make a mount for it. i set max voltage at 220 (or even higher) in the parameter setup but when i measure each phase it is only 129 volts. Does anyone know if the 110 volt input inverter is supposed to put out the full 220 volts? There is no documentation for the 110 volt input inverter specifically so maybe there are additional parameters that are not mentioned in the manual for the 220 volt versions. If i ever figure this out i will start on a manual that attempts to cover the basics. I tried to read the two additional links you provided. Did not find any more info in the second one and the first one produced an error that i do not have sufficient privileges to access the page. On 3/14/2015 4:06 PM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Inverters or VFDs output a pulsed DC voltage. It would require an oscilloscope to get an accurate voltage measurement, a normal voltmeter or multimeter will not show an accurate voltage.
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I do not know the model referred to here, but there are many VFDs that will use 120v input and drive 220 volt motors. ron ginger On 3/15/2015 4:32 AM, mach1mach2cnc@... wrote:
i set max voltage at 220 (or even higher) in the parameter setup but |
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Spencer
There is absolutely no difference between the air cooled version and the water cooled version of the spindle except that you need to connect an external water pump and water supply to the water cooled variety. This is completely independant of the the VFD control for that spindle and has zero bearing on the VFD's PD settings for the spindle. That whole thread is to do with Huanyang VFDs and their associated spindle requirements. |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育I'll check with a scope. I thought the 3 phase was AC so just used my Fluke true RMS meter on AC and 129 volts is what I got. i'll make a voltage divider and see what the scope says. or is there just a conversion factor to apply when using an RMS AC meter to measure this sort of pulsed DC? i don't want to burn up my scope. a ten to one voltage divider should do it but ???if i just had a manual specifically for the inverter it would be best but there does not seem to be one. i will call automation tech on monday maybe they have one. on the nameplate it has a model number that is not listed in the regular manual and it says 110 volt single or 3 phase input and suggests that the output is 110 volt three phase but the listing online for this inverter in a package with a 220 volt motor says that the output is 220 volt three phase. PD041 looks like it might be useful? the manual calls it "carrier frequency" and it ranges from 100 hz to 20khz? it is suggested that a compromise between electrical noise and power can be made with this setting. they caution about changing it is small increments. does a higher carrier frequency allow for more power? is the heating of the inverter or the motor or both that are of concern with higher frequencies? On 3/15/2015 5:06 AM, Ron Ginger
ronginger@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
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Spencer Chase
开云体育Jeremy,I figured there was little difference. Just mentioned that the main point of the article was setting the min voltage or whatever to be sure the fan came on, which is not necessary with the water cooled motor. I am trying to get the max power from the motor and have conflicting information re the 110 volt input VFD. One place asys it outputs 220 volts three phase and another (the nameplate) says it puts out 110 volts three phase. I think there may be some extra parameters or different settings for the 110 volt input inverter but there does not seems to be a manual for it nor is it included in the 220/330 volt manual. the motor is working very well, just want to make it better. if the thing stalls it destroys expensive bits. i don't want to reduce feed speeds to a crawl just to prevent this. maple is not the easiest thing to route. 90% might cut at one speed and then another piece will have crazy hard grain. i'm sure i'll break a few more cutters before i get this right. On 3/15/2015 6:24 AM,
jeremywillson@... [mach1mach2cnc] wrote:
? -- Best regards, Spencer Chase 67550-Bell Springs Rd. Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only. Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only. Spencer@... (425) 791-0309 |
Ron Ginger