Leo Bado

开云体育

Hello. I have seen how people like myself expressing poor opinions about the New Outlook have been moderated in this mailing list. However, this is not the subject of this message although it is absolutely related. If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. If I follow this logic under the assumption that someone is acting in good faith, as I also believe I’m doing myself, then advocators of the New Outlook should provide irrefutable proofs that this interface is as screen reader friendly as it is the Classic Outlook in M365 environment. They should do this by covering an extensive range of functionalities present for years in Outlook Classic in which the most extended and used screen readers (NVDA and Jaws)? have no trouble at all when interacting directly with the interface. Additionally, advocators should take into consideration that not only positive outcomes are important, meaning completion of a task, but also the strategic possibility that an interface provides for the user, meaning “how to do stuff” is directly related to cognitive differences among users. Let me portray this last statement. If we have here a mailing list? in which people is getting acquainted with the command alt plus q, and how to create a folder in Outlook, and how to filter messages, and how to rearrange accounts: well, it is only logical that advocators must give also the step by step guide to do the same in the New Outlook, which brings me to my real question because I’m also operating under the assumption that advocators are advanced users and I’m just an ignorant on this new interface. ?

?

Could you, please, share a full tutorial about all the functionalities in this new outlook interface as if I were a 7 year old kid?

?

Salute!

?

Cheers,

Leo Bado.

?

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

Pravin Lal.

?

#9769

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 08:37 AM, Leo Bado wrote:

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application.

-

1. That's a logical fallacy because no one has even tried to "cast out all disparaging remarks."

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

3. If you, or any other member, has an issue with moderation policy on any given group, then the appropriate avenue for pursuing that is with the Owner via that group's owner address.? Questioning moderation policy in public is really poor form.? Be prepared to have a rationale for your own position if you do choose to challenge existing policy.

?

Anyone who wants to ask "how to" questions about New Outlook should feel entirely free to do so and venting of frustrations during a learning curve are perfectly fine.? Rants about New Outlook being utterly inaccessible will be summarily shut down, because they are false and not helpful.

?

The tutorial you want does not exist, since New Outlook is currently only in the 2nd stage, Opt Out, of its release.? I don't think anyone's written a comprehensive tutorial on using New Outlook with a screen reader.? What I know I have learned via trial and error, which is entirely usual when brand new user interfaces hit the street.

?

For the time being, if you or anyone else has a specific question about how to do something in New Outlook, ask it.

--

Brian? · ♂? · ???? · ?Virginia, USA?- Windows 11 Pro, Version 24H2, Build 26100; M365 Family; Android 13 (Xiaomi HyperOS 1.0.10.0)

. . . too many colleges are beginning to look like country clubs that happen to teach stuff, not educational institutions that happen to have a gym.

????? ~ Bret Stephens, in New York Times Op-Ed, , June 18, 2019

#9772

开云体育

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. Hey Leo, quit throwing out those big words. ?LOL.? I found out when I got to grade 8 in school, that I wasn’t really passing to the next grade, just being pushed to the next one because they didn’t want to deal with a blind person.? In the 60s, they just shoved the blind or deaf into a private school, or basically kept them out of public schools with the idea that they didn’t belong there. The spell checker/grammar checker is my best friend.? ??

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel via groups.io
Sent: January 10, 2025 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 08:37 AM, Leo Bado wrote:

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application.

-

1. That's a logical fallacy because no one has even tried to "cast out all disparaging remarks."

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

3. If you, or any other member, has an issue with moderation policy on any given group, then the appropriate avenue for pursuing that is with the Owner via that group's owner address.? Questioning moderation policy in public is really poor form.? Be prepared to have a rationale for your own position if you do choose to challenge existing policy.

?

Anyone who wants to ask "how to" questions about New Outlook should feel entirely free to do so and venting of frustrations during a learning curve are perfectly fine.? Rants about New Outlook being utterly inaccessible will be summarily shut down, because they are false and not helpful.

?

The tutorial you want does not exist, since New Outlook is currently only in the 2nd stage, Opt Out, of its release.? I don't think anyone's written a comprehensive tutorial on using New Outlook with a screen reader.? What I know I have learned via trial and error, which is entirely usual when brand new user interfaces hit the street.

?

For the time being, if you or anyone else has a specific question about how to do something in New Outlook, ask it.

--

Brian? · ♂? · ???? · ?Virginia, USA?- Windows 11 Pro, Version 24H2, Build 26100; M365 Family; Android 13 (Xiaomi HyperOS 1.0.10.0)

. . . too many colleges are beginning to look like country clubs that happen to teach stuff, not educational institutions that happen to have a gym.

????? ~ Bret Stephens, in New York Times Op-Ed, , June 18, 2019

Leo Bado

#9780

开云体育

Quote

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

Unquote

?

Yes it is reasonable, but I’m not piling up useless complaints, but the serious limitations in terms of accessibility and usability of the new interface at least for productive usage. It is one thing to say, “I don’t like it,” as I say it over and over as to use NVDA, and a very different ?thing is to highlight the pitfalls and flaws of the product in terms of screen reader’s interactivity. Subjective gibberish versus factual, objective first-hand ?experience.

?

As for communicating directly to moderators, it was never my intention to do it since I want people to request, even more, demand, a full tutorial coverage? on the New Outlook to those who promote its use or at least express in favor of switching, and I also want people reading this lines to open an important discussion that concerns every member, not just moderators. Consensus is reached through open discussion, policies and rules should just reflect such consensus, otherwise tyrannical stances will be waiting around the corner.

?

Cheers,

Leo Bado.

?

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

Pravin Lal.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 9:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 08:37 AM, Leo Bado wrote:

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application.

-

1. That's a logical fallacy because no one has even tried to "cast out all disparaging remarks."

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

3. If you, or any other member, has an issue with moderation policy on any given group, then the appropriate avenue for pursuing that is with the Owner via that group's owner address.? Questioning moderation policy in public is really poor form.? Be prepared to have a rationale for your own position if you do choose to challenge existing policy.

?

Anyone who wants to ask "how to" questions about New Outlook should feel entirely free to do so and venting of frustrations during a learning curve are perfectly fine.? Rants about New Outlook being utterly inaccessible will be summarily shut down, because they are false and not helpful.

?

The tutorial you want does not exist, since New Outlook is currently only in the 2nd stage, Opt Out, of its release.? I don't think anyone's written a comprehensive tutorial on using New Outlook with a screen reader.? What I know I have learned via trial and error, which is entirely usual when brand new user interfaces hit the street.

?

For the time being, if you or anyone else has a specific question about how to do something in New Outlook, ask it.

--

Brian? · ♂? · ???? · ?Virginia, USA?- Windows 11 Pro, Version 24H2, Build 26100; M365 Family; Android 13 (Xiaomi HyperOS 1.0.10.0)

. . . too many colleges are beginning to look like country clubs that happen to teach stuff, not educational institutions that happen to have a gym.

????? ~ Bret Stephens, in New York Times Op-Ed, , June 18, 2019

#9782

开云体育

Quoting:

In the 60s, they just shoved the blind or deaf into a private school, or basically kept them out of public schools with the idea that they didn’t belong there.

End quote:

Of course, they did; I being one of those, believe it was/is the right thing to do.

There is no one in public school and I do mean no one, sighted or otherwise, who could/can teach me what those people taught me in blind school (braille jail).

I trusted those people explicitly because they were just as blind as I am and so I trusted and respected them completely.

I do not have that trust today with the public school racket. I would never send my blind child to a public school what so ever.

?

Please advise as you like.

?

Mike M.

?

Mike mcglashon

AD9CA

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 9:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. Hey Leo, quit throwing out those big words. ?LOL.? I found out when I got to grade 8 in school, that I wasn’t really passing to the next grade, just being pushed to the next one because they didn’t want to deal with a blind person.? In the 60s, they just shoved the blind or deaf into a private school, or basically kept them out of public schools with the idea that they didn’t belong there. The spell checker/grammar checker is my best friend.? ??

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel via groups.io
Sent: January 10, 2025 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 08:37 AM, Leo Bado wrote:

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application.

-

1. That's a logical fallacy because no one has even tried to "cast out all disparaging remarks."

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

3. If you, or any other member, has an issue with moderation policy on any given group, then the appropriate avenue for pursuing that is with the Owner via that group's owner address.? Questioning moderation policy in public is really poor form.? Be prepared to have a rationale for your own position if you do choose to challenge existing policy.

?

Anyone who wants to ask "how to" questions about New Outlook should feel entirely free to do so and venting of frustrations during a learning curve are perfectly fine.? Rants about New Outlook being utterly inaccessible will be summarily shut down, because they are false and not helpful.

?

The tutorial you want does not exist, since New Outlook is currently only in the 2nd stage, Opt Out, of its release.? I don't think anyone's written a comprehensive tutorial on using New Outlook with a screen reader.? What I know I have learned via trial and error, which is entirely usual when brand new user interfaces hit the street.

?

For the time being, if you or anyone else has a specific question about how to do something in New Outlook, ask it.

--

Brian? · ♂? · ???? · ?Virginia, USA?- Windows 11 Pro, Version 24H2, Build 26100; M365 Family; Android 13 (Xiaomi HyperOS 1.0.10.0)

. . . too many colleges are beginning to look like country clubs that happen to teach stuff, not educational institutions that happen to have a gym.

????? ~ Bret Stephens, in New York Times Op-Ed, , June 18, 2019

#9783

开云体育

I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone advocate for the new Outlook or claim that it’s as screen reader friendly as the Classic Outlook. For me, I just recently pointed out that the Classic Outlook also has a steep learning curve, or at least it did for me. In the past, I’ve talked about giving the new Outlook a spin and pointing out some of the things I like about it. I’ve probably also mentioned that you can do quite a bit in it, although there is a learning curve and not everything is as easy as it is in Classic Outlook.

?

I don’t know of a screen reader based tutorial for the new Outlook and I’m not going to write one myself. Although I’m sure they’re out there, I also don’t know of a screen reader based tutorial for Classic Outlook. For my part, I have four years to play around with the new Outlook myself and wait for webinars from Freedom Scientific, so I’m not worried at all for the moment.

?

--

Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷

Chaltain at Outlook, USA

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Leo Bado via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 7:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

Hello. I have seen how people like myself expressing poor opinions about the New Outlook have been moderated in this mailing list. However, this is not the subject of this message although it is absolutely related. If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. If I follow this logic under the assumption that someone is acting in good faith, as I also believe I’m doing myself, then advocators of the New Outlook should provide irrefutable proofs that this interface is as screen reader friendly as it is the Classic Outlook in M365 environment. They should do this by covering an extensive range of functionalities present for years in Outlook Classic in which the most extended and used screen readers (NVDA and Jaws)? have no trouble at all when interacting directly with the interface. Additionally, advocators should take into consideration that not only positive outcomes are important, meaning completion of a task, but also the strategic possibility that an interface provides for the user, meaning “how to do stuff” is directly related to cognitive differences among users. Let me portray this last statement. If we have here a mailing list? in which people is getting acquainted with the command alt plus q, and how to create a folder in Outlook, and how to filter messages, and how to rearrange accounts: well, it is only logical that advocators must give also the step by step guide to do the same in the New Outlook, which brings me to my real question because I’m also operating under the assumption that advocators are advanced users and I’m just an ignorant on this new interface. ?

?

Could you, please, share a full tutorial about all the functionalities in this new outlook interface as if I were a 7 year old kid?

?

Salute!

?

Cheers,

Leo Bado.

?

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

Pravin Lal.

?

#9788

开云体育

I was not taught braille while there and they kept you in the private school till grade 10, then kicked you out to the public school.? Imagine you’ve been in a blind school and then after being there from grade 1-10 they throw you into a sighted world.? Makes sense to me.? LOL.?

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of mike mcglashon via groups.io
Sent: January 10, 2025 4:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

Quoting:

In the 60s, they just shoved the blind or deaf into a private school, or basically kept them out of public schools with the idea that they didn’t belong there.

End quote:

Of course, they did; I being one of those, believe it was/is the right thing to do.

There is no one in public school and I do mean no one, sighted or otherwise, who could/can teach me what those people taught me in blind school (braille jail).

I trusted those people explicitly because they were just as blind as I am and so I trusted and respected them completely.

I do not have that trust today with the public school racket. I would never send my blind child to a public school what so ever.

?

Please advise as you like.

?

Mike M.

?

Mike mcglashon

AD9CA

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 9:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. Hey Leo, quit throwing out those big words. ?LOL.? I found out when I got to grade 8 in school, that I wasn’t really passing to the next grade, just being pushed to the next one because they didn’t want to deal with a blind person.? In the 60s, they just shoved the blind or deaf into a private school, or basically kept them out of public schools with the idea that they didn’t belong there. The spell checker/grammar checker is my best friend.? ??

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel via groups.io
Sent: January 10, 2025 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 08:37 AM, Leo Bado wrote:

If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application.

-

1. That's a logical fallacy because no one has even tried to "cast out all disparaging remarks."

2. Not wanting any group to become the "let's pile on complaining about Application X" group is entirely reasonable.??

3. If you, or any other member, has an issue with moderation policy on any given group, then the appropriate avenue for pursuing that is with the Owner via that group's owner address.? Questioning moderation policy in public is really poor form.? Be prepared to have a rationale for your own position if you do choose to challenge existing policy.

?

Anyone who wants to ask "how to" questions about New Outlook should feel entirely free to do so and venting of frustrations during a learning curve are perfectly fine.? Rants about New Outlook being utterly inaccessible will be summarily shut down, because they are false and not helpful.

?

The tutorial you want does not exist, since New Outlook is currently only in the 2nd stage, Opt Out, of its release.? I don't think anyone's written a comprehensive tutorial on using New Outlook with a screen reader.? What I know I have learned via trial and error, which is entirely usual when brand new user interfaces hit the street.

?

For the time being, if you or anyone else has a specific question about how to do something in New Outlook, ask it.

--

Brian? · ♂? · ???? · ?Virginia, USA?- Windows 11 Pro, Version 24H2, Build 26100; M365 Family; Android 13 (Xiaomi HyperOS 1.0.10.0)

. . . too many colleges are beginning to look like country clubs that happen to teach stuff, not educational institutions that happen to have a gym.

????? ~ Bret Stephens, in New York Times Op-Ed, , June 18, 2019

#9789

开云体育

I did do a search in windows for outlook new It seemed alright except it only had one of my emails in it and I just had to add others.? When loading outlook for the first time I had to do the same as well, so it is no big deal.? I will give it a try later, too much going on right now.? Guide dog died Dec. 28 last year so still dealing with that.? ?

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of chaltain@... via groups.io
Sent: January 10, 2025 4:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone advocate for the new Outlook or claim that it’s as screen reader friendly as the Classic Outlook. For me, I just recently pointed out that the Classic Outlook also has a steep learning curve, or at least it did for me. In the past, I’ve talked about giving the new Outlook a spin and pointing out some of the things I like about it. I’ve probably also mentioned that you can do quite a bit in it, although there is a learning curve and not everything is as easy as it is in Classic Outlook.

?

I don’t know of a screen reader based tutorial for the new Outlook and I’m not going to write one myself. Although I’m sure they’re out there, I also don’t know of a screen reader based tutorial for Classic Outlook. For my part, I have four years to play around with the new Outlook myself and wait for webinars from Freedom Scientific, so I’m not worried at all for the moment.

?

--

Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷

Chaltain at Outlook, USA

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Leo Bado via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 7:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [M365-Accessibility] Full updated tutorial for the New Outlook in Microsoft 365

?

Hello. I have seen how people like myself expressing poor opinions about the New Outlook have been moderated in this mailing list. However, this is not the subject of this message although it is absolutely related. If moderators want to cast out all disparaging remarks about a service, product or app, then by antonomasia they become an either explicit or implicit advocator of such application. If I follow this logic under the assumption that someone is acting in good faith, as I also believe I’m doing myself, then advocators of the New Outlook should provide irrefutable proofs that this interface is as screen reader friendly as it is the Classic Outlook in M365 environment. They should do this by covering an extensive range of functionalities present for years in Outlook Classic in which the most extended and used screen readers (NVDA and Jaws)? have no trouble at all when interacting directly with the interface. Additionally, advocators should take into consideration that not only positive outcomes are important, meaning completion of a task, but also the strategic possibility that an interface provides for the user, meaning “how to do stuff” is directly related to cognitive differences among users. Let me portray this last statement. If we have here a mailing list? in which people is getting acquainted with the command alt plus q, and how to create a folder in Outlook, and how to filter messages, and how to rearrange accounts: well, it is only logical that advocators must give also the step by step guide to do the same in the New Outlook, which brings me to my real question because I’m also operating under the assumption that advocators are advanced users and I’m just an ignorant on this new interface. ?

?

Could you, please, share a full tutorial about all the functionalities in this new outlook interface as if I were a 7 year old kid?

?

Salute!

?

Cheers,

Leo Bado.

?

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

Pravin Lal.

?