Thank you Chaim I appreciate your words. Keep on searching. Jan On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Jan
Brilliantly stated. You encourage me and thousands of others to continue
researching and endeavoring to understand the monumental history of the
people of Poland. I have been working in many fields at the same time.
Lately I have been working tirelessly with a second cousin to research the
Majersdorf family in all of Poland and to attempt to find the threads that
may bind us together. We are currently stuck somewhere in the late 1790¡¯s
but hope for a breakthrough. My father and my wife¡¯s father never renounced
their Polish citizenship and in fact paid dearly for it. The Russians
pressured them relentlessly to renounce their Polish citizenship and take
Russian citizenship. They refused and were therefore exiled into
Archangelsk where the family almost perished. We the children of these
proud Polish citizens were raised to respect the Polish people of all
ethnic origins. That is why I regard the work of Kresy Sibera as a mission
of the highest importance.
Carry on, we are with you.
Chaim Meiersdorf
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 4:28 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Chaim,
I share here my experience and knowledge and do not expect anybody to read
what I read. I quote historic publications to show were my views come from
or are based on. In case someone does not believe me it is a source to
check my information. Some people think that if they do knot know
something, such a thing does not exists. It also applies to the history.
As a member of this group and descendant of polish fighters for freedom I
feel that my duty here is not only to search for traces of my ancestors. I
am obliged also to uphold the very values for which they suffered and paid
with their lives. One of them is to defend Poland and Poles against
defamation, false accusations, falsifying history. Which is not only very
common, but also has a form of planned, organized actions, cleverly
disguised as to look as coincidental events or just mistakes. There are too
many of them, to be treated as such.
Anyway we are proud of you and your father for fighting for freedom of
Poland in the Polish Army. And you, for researching and preserving his
history. If there are any publicly available documents or stories of your
father, please let me know. You may have different goals now and other
things are important to you than those of your father. You and I may have
contradictory interests, but we should have common understanding of what
has happened in the past, and what is going now. That requires full
disclosure of materials facts. It will never happen, but at least we should
try to go into that direction.
with regards
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 2:57 PM, 'Lenarda Szymczak'
szymczak01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...>
wrote:
Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart cry for the
inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming. All
suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion,
understanding and research. The pain and suffering is the same, whether
we are black, white or green. Thank you for sharing this.
Lenarda, Sydney Australia
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Monday, 30 May 2016 9:26 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Hi there, Pan Jan!
Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my
mother, Pani Olga!
Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell
because of too many sins committed in this life.
However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him
on a tour of Hell.
They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out
of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others
would pull him back in.
Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also
trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the
others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out.
The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so
different from those in the other pit?"
The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so
jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear
him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell
forever.
The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep
escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!"
Cheers!
Dear Marie
Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and
exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story
somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that
particular subject says well known
Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who
survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in
Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the
European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, b¨®lu" (Ou, the pain of mine).
As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself.
Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet.
I am the one, who saw that, watched closely,
As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks
Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing
and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words.
I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers -
Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die
I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace -
Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews!
Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street
As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad
With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild
They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes.
Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains
With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear,
They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest
Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God
They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed,
and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!"
They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for
longer,
To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits.
And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here
Still street, one shout has become and horror -
From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before -
Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons...
In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands.
Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout.
They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and
nothing more.
With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild!
At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them,
German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere,
He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands!
I. Kacenelson, Pie?¨½ o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s.
23.
Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the
truth, yours or switched?
See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good
when published.
Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english.
Here is the polish text of the poem
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@...
[Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Sorry. I really don¡¯t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald¡¯s
books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the
same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the
reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested.
Chaim
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:36 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only
reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the
author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any
ani-Jewish views. As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do,
historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents
very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something
from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise
it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation.
On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to
have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the
case, please do not try to silence anybody here. I do not care about what
views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years.
What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on
facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of
books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but
in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many
parts.
We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex,
enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers,
tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish. A
lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist
regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison.
That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is
no place for accusation here. We just need to know the facts. As prof. Ewa
Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of
my nation." She was thinking about Poles.
You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the
history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during
WW2."
That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history
without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life,
tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have
pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never
heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the
reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also,
that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it.
Jan
On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf
chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...>
wrote:
I looked at MacDonald¡¯s website and at some of the reviews of his books on
Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought
that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened
to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald
and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group.
Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone
any good.
Thank you
Chaim Meiersdorf
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Sunday, May 29, 2016 11:36 AM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
The History
Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?
Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores
of books and devote years of work to one subject?
None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical
books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of
historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular
subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection
to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An
Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century
Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald
. The other are his essays from The
Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze
studi¨®w nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.
For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I
have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not
know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after
reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how
the world works, they make it work the way they want.
As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to
which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw
Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre
fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of
those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german
newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than
Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15
Prok. Rej. Katowice-P¨®?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.
- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born
1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a
lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor
Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996.
We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him
I gave you onet.pl source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It
is owned by the Krak¨®w-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by
Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is
the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in
Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since
2012 (75%).
Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians
performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians,
politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after
his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated
his stance.
,artykuly,370968,1.html
Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty.
It would be easier to trengthen the compensation claims for jewish lost
properties in Poland.
Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we
can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to
pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest
historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my
opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is
fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.
Jan
On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski
stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <
Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Bernie,
Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was
behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2.
Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a
socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.
As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of
doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves
with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is
strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a government
supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no
business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they
are against our mission, we must resist them, no matter what our personal
opinions.
Regards
*Stefan Wisniowski*
Kresy-Siberia Foundation
On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <
Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount
dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans
were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their
administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to
live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize
farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as
comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead
them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations
and selective killings. Under normal circumstances this is a horrible
thing. But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder
they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least
- the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ¡®nationalism¡¯ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human
beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or
tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ¡®good¡¯ or ¡®bad¡¯(1)
<>. But
secondly ¡ª and this is much more important ¡ª I mean the habit of
identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond
good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its
interests. *Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism*. Both
words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to
be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two
different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ¡®patriotism¡¯ I mean
devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one
believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other
people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and
culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire
for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power
and more prestige, *not* for himself but for the nation or other unit in
which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting
to. It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate
what history is. ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS
need to be resisted. I read into your comments that you are concerned
that there may be a political cost to opposing them. This is exactly the
problem I am warning about.
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