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Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

We are talking about a Hallicrafters S-85 are we not? The S-85
tunes from 535 Khz to 34Mhz. So, what is this about .5Mhz and 370 and
220 Khz? typo maybe.
Since the higher bands work I assume you aligned the IF. Perhaps
worth just starting there. Feed in 455 Khz. You can feed the antenna
terminals. Adjust using 30% modulation at some reasonable frequency, say
500 Hz. Use the lowest signal strength that gives you noise free audio.
Tune for maximum output keeping the input level as low as possible. This
will prevent a resonant shift due to AVC.
When done go on to the RF alignment. Follow the instructions. The
S-85 starts with the high band and goes down.
I could not find a reference to which image is used on the high
bands but its important to be on the correct one. It is common on these
receivers to align the local oscillator "Below" the signal on the
highest band and "Above" it on the other bands. If you are on the wrong
side the RF will not track and the calibration of the oscillator will be
off. If you find this try the other side.
The position of the peaks on the RF will be affected somewhat by
the dummy load. Its worth using one if you can but reasonable alighment
can be gotten without one.
The IF symmetry depends on the coupling of the IF transformers and
for a fixed bandwidth IF should be close. If its way off you have a bad
transformer but I think more likely have a measurement error. Just peak
the transformers and go on to the RF.
It is amost impossible for you to be getting good signals on the
high bands and nothing on the broadcast band. I measurement error I think.
Start over from the beginning and keep it simple! I think its
possible your test frequencies are way off.
Please report what you find.
Note that on the high bands it may be necessary to rock the tuning
because the RF adjustments may pull the oscillator slightly. Not the
cause of your problem. Also a reason to keep the signal levels as low as
possible.


On 2/5/2025 2:20 PM, Emanuele Girlando via groups.io wrote:
Things get darker and darker.

* Coils are not open.
* TRIMCAPs are not shorted.
* I confirm problem in band 1&2, bands 3&4 worked like a charm.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 
Edited

Things get darker and darker.
  • Coils are not open.
  • TRIMCAPs are not shorted.
  • I confirm problem in band 1&2, bands 3&4 worked like a charm.
Started from scratch.
Test gears setup:
The Spectrum Analyzer is an Advantest 3361B (0.1-3600Mhz) driven by a 10MHz EXT REF coming from a rubidium reference oscillator. I performed the calibration procedures before using it.
The RF probe is an active probe able to reach 500Mhz. Its input is very high-Z. Loosely coupled (gimmick cap) to T3-pin2 (3rd IF output, just before the detector..).
Tracking generator output connected to V8-pin2 trough a 2000pF cap as per service manual.
NOTE: in all the following test the vertical measures a purely qualitative. Horizontal measures are quantitative measurements.
I performed a visual IF alignment using the SA tracking generator.
?
?
The IF cans peaked @452KHz, the BW is 5.9KHz.
The IF strip seems ok to me. Do you agree?
?
Local oscillator actual frequency test:
I relocated the probe input to loosely couple ?(gimmick cap) the local oscillator.
Sig-gen (HP 8640B) @1400KHz, AM modulated @30% connected to ANT by a RTMA dummy antenna. Used as a reference for dial setting.
Here is the plot of the local oscillator signal in the Band 1 tuned @1.4MHz. It seems ok to me (1400+452= 1852 KHZ):
?
Sig-gen (HP 8640B) @4000KHz, AM modulated @30% connected to ANT by a RTMA dummy antenna. Used as a reference for dial setting.
Here is the plot of the local oscillator signal in the Band 2 tuned @4MHz. It seems ok to me (4000+452=4452 KHZ):
?
I think these tests can get the "image" frequency topic out of discussion.
Do you agree?

I then tried to isolate the problem stressing the ANT resonant circuit alone, with the following setup:
The S-85 was turned OFF.
Band spread dial fully clockwise in all tests.
NOTE: in these last tests the right marker is where the peak should be.
?
On band 1, with the Main Tuning dial set to 1.4Mhz (as per service manual), i've got the following results:
??????????? TRIMCAP C4 fully engaged (higher C):?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TRIMCAP C4 fully released (lower C):
?
The peak is lower then the test frequency between 370 and 220 KHz - not normal!
The steep left slope and the asymmetry in general are also suspect. In fact, listening on band 1, all signals (and the noise as well) tend to disappear below .5MHz.
?
On band 2, with the Main Tuning dial set to 4Mhz (as per service manual), I've got the following results:
??????????????????????? TRIMCAP C3 fully engaged (higher C):???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TRIMCAP C3 fully released (lower C):
The peak is lower then the test frequency between 1MHz and .7MHz - not normal!
At least the slope is symmetric.
?
Removing V1 produced no significant change.
?
Conclusions:
  • the tanks do resonate.. but at the wrong frequency. In both cases the peaks always stay far below the tuning frequencies.
  • Band 1 also suffer strong slope asymmetry. Listening the radio it looses sensitivity below .5MHz. Why is that?
  • The reasonable performances I get from the receiver are due to "partial" signal passing through even if the corresponding tank doesn't resonate correctly.
HELP!

Emanuele (IU1KNR).
?
Re: Missing page SR-2000

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thanks Pete, don't know how I missed you.?



Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
A majority of acceptance is not proof of correctness.



From:[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter A Markavage via groups.io <pmarkavage@...>
Sent:?Wednesday, February 5, 2025 1:44 PM
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject:?Re: [HallicraftersRadios] Missing page SR-2000
?
Actually Walt I also have the complete manual. And actually, it's more?recent then the one on jptronics. The info in the addendum is already rolled into the manual along with the updated schematic. And no assembly or tape is required with my manuals.
?
Pete, wa2cwa
?
?
?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:02:11 +0000 "waltcates via groups.io" <cateswa@...> writes:
I have had several people contact?me recently about a missing page in the online SR-2000 Operation and?
Service manual. Page 32 is missing from a most of online manuals. Very important, shows important alignment information. For the record I have found only one source that provides a complete manual.

?jptronics.org ??
?
Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
?
Re: Missing page SR-2000

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Actually Walt I also have the complete manual. And actually, it's more?recent then the one on jptronics. The info in the addendum is already rolled into the manual along with the updated schematic. And no assembly or tape is required with my manuals.
?
Pete, wa2cwa
?
?
?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:02:11 +0000 "waltcates via groups.io" <cateswa@...> writes:

I have had several people contact?me recently about a missing page in the online SR-2000 Operation and?
Service manual. Page 32 is missing from a most of online manuals. Very important, shows important alignment information. For the record I have found only one source that provides a complete manual.

?jptronics.org ??
?
Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
?
Missing page SR-2000

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I have had several people contact?me recently about a missing page in the online SR-2000 Operation and?
Service manual. Page 32 is missing from a most of online manuals. Very important, shows important alignment information. For the record I have found only one source that provides a complete manual.

?jptronics.org ??



Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
A majority of acceptance is not proof of correctness.


Re: SX-117 revision B to C

 

Dave - I have a late model, think it is a D but can't recall now.? My biggest complaint was that the AGC and S Meter responded strongly to off-frequency strong signals.? I made the change - think it was a one wire change - and that solved the problem.? There were no negative side effects and the change is easily reversible.
?
73, Floyd - K8AC
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

I am catching up on this one. The S-85 is a late version of a
receiver that goes back in Hallicrafters history to the S-20R, maybe
even before. It is about a second step up from the simplest receivers of
the 5 tube AC/DC variety. I have both an S-20R and S-40A, both work very
well. Now, these are simple single conversion receivers with the benefit
of an RF stage. You say you are having trouble on bands 1 and 2, those
are the lowest frequency bands, please confirm this. Mostly I would
expect alignment trouble on the two higher bands, 3 and 4. Perhaps we
have been chasing the wrong bands.
The S-85 has a calibrated band spread on all bands. It has one
additional band spread condenser compared to the earlier models. The
band spread capacitor is separate from the main tuning cap but is common
to all four bands.
If you were having trouble on the higher bands I would suspect you
are on the wrong side of the local oscillator, i.e. trying to tune on
the image rather than the fundamental response. Some multi band
receivers tune with the local oscillator higher than the signal
frequency for the low bands and with it below the signal for the highest
or two highest bands. If you are on the wrong side the RF will not track
the oscillator so you may get strong signals at one end but not the
other. I did not see in the S-85 handbook which side you are supposed to
use but in earlier receivers the LO is BELOW the signal on the highest
band but ABOVE it on the other bands.
If you are getting NO signal on the two lowest bands I would look at
the band switch. This is a pretty unusual problem.
The S-85 is pretty much an old, reliable design and should not have
many exotic problems.
Sorry if this is all asked and answered but I have not gone over the
entire thread.
Also, I don't know what you mean by "close to" images. There will be
ONE image, it will be separated by twice the IF frequency, for this
receiver. 910Khz.
More info please.


On 2/4/2025 2:28 AM, Emanuele Girlando via groups.io wrote:
Thank you for the advises guys.
The problem is not solved though.
*Bands 3 & 4 RF alignment* went very well, even if the trimcaps were
very touchy.
I went through the bands 1&2 alignment process again.
On bands 1 & 2 I am injecting a -90dBm signal from an HP 8640B sig-gen.
I don't expect to have any *close in image signal* under these
conditions. I looked for them tuning around the two alignment
frequencies and found none, nope.

The *band spread* dial was set to fully clockwise and it was not moved
during the process.

The *band switch* works ok, it has been cleaned carefully: it doesn't
even produce scratches sounds while operated.

I also replaced *V1* with a same type I have in hands (both measured
"good" on my tube tester).

*The radio works like a charm*: I spent the entire yesterday night
listening to broadcast and ham stations *on all bands*.
Now the questions are:

* *why* is this happening in the first place?
* how to try to further *reduce the trimcap capacitance* without
destroying them and avoiding to dismantle the relevant RF sections?
* Can it be *C7A and C7B went out of value*, enough to influence band
1&2 but not enough to influence bands 3&4?
How to test this?
* can it be my RTMA *dummy antenna*?

Thank you very much.
Emanuele (IU1KNR).
<>
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Emanuele

People would love to have a single conversion receiver that has no images up at 28Mcs. ?signals that are too weak wont be heard, but stronger ones and the sig gen should come in 910Kc apart, one weaker than the other. ?I guess you turned the trimmers for 1,2 all in before doing the alignment again and they had to be shifted all out again? And still not good enough.

Maybe you could pull the RF tube and inject after the tube so there is only one set of coils to do¡­ as a test.

Do you have ?scope so you can look at the RF close to the various coils? It is a mystery. ????

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Emanuele Girlando via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2025 5:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

?

Thank you for the advises guys.

The problem is not solved though.

?

Bands 3 & 4 RF alignment went very well, even if the trimcaps were very touchy.

I went through the bands 1&2 alignment process again.

On bands 1 & 2 I am injecting a -90dBm signal from an HP 8640B sig-gen. I don't expect to have any close in image signal under these conditions. I looked for them tuning around the two alignment frequencies and found none, nope.


The band spread dial was set to fully clockwise and it was not moved during the process.


The band switch works ok, it has been cleaned carefully: it doesn't even produce scratches sounds while operated.


I also replaced V1 with a same type I have in hands (both measured "good" on my tube tester).


The radio works like a charm: I spent the entire yesterday night listening to broadcast and ham stations on all bands.

?

Now the questions are:

¡¤?????? why is this happening in the first place?

¡¤?????? how to try to further reduce the trimcap capacitance without destroying them and avoiding to dismantle the relevant RF sections?

¡¤?????? Can it be C7A and C7B went out of value, enough to influence band 1&2 but not enough to influence bands 3&4?
How to test this?

¡¤?????? can it be my RTMA dummy antenna?

?

Thank you very much.
Emanuele (IU1KNR).


--
don??? va3drl
Re: SX-117 revision B to C

 

I am also interested in making the same change.
?
73 Jack KZ5A
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

Well those L/C networks are tuned circuits.? If you can't achieve proper resonance then either the signal is not getting to/from them or there is some fault with them.? Check the coil wiring.? Compare to the other band coils.? You should see similar construction.? Make sure the coils aren't open.? Make sure the caps aren't shorted (the mica or polymer dielectric isn't damaged).? You may have to electrically isolate (lift one side) of these components in order to measure but be careful.? It's interesting that you are getting at least reasonable performance under these conditions.
?
Maybe before unsoldering anything you could measure the RF signal at the input or output of V1.? As you adjust the appropriate cap you should see the signal there change quite a bit.?
Now this may sound silly, but make sure you are adjusting the correct cap(s) for the band!? Maybe there's a mistake in the manual?? Verify the caps you are adjusting are the ones in-circuit by looking at the band switch wafers.
?
Nick
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

Thank you for the advises guys.
The problem is not solved though.
?
Bands 3 & 4 RF alignment went very well, even if the trimcaps were very touchy.
I went through the bands 1&2 alignment process again.
On bands 1 & 2 I am injecting a -90dBm signal from an HP 8640B sig-gen. I don't expect to have any close in image signal under these conditions. I looked for them tuning around the two alignment frequencies and found none, nope.

The band spread dial was set to fully clockwise and it was not moved during the process.

The band switch works ok, it has been cleaned carefully: it doesn't even produce scratches sounds while operated.

I also replaced V1 with a same type I have in hands (both measured "good" on my tube tester).

The radio works like a charm: I spent the entire yesterday night listening to broadcast and ham stations on all bands.
?
Now the questions are:
  • why is this happening in the first place?
  • how to try to further reduce the trimcap capacitance without destroying them and avoiding to dismantle the relevant RF sections?
  • Can it be C7A and C7B went out of value, enough to influence band 1&2 but not enough to influence bands 3&4?
    How to test this?
  • can it be my RTMA dummy antenna?

?

Thank you very much.
Emanuele (IU1KNR).

?
SX-117 revision B to C

 

All: I have read the very good explanation of the different revisions to the
SX-117. Mine is a post-B model, which means that the notch filter doesn't
affect the AGC response.

I am inclined to revert that part of the build back to Rev B so the notch
filter behaves "correctly", but before I look at this I'd like your opinions
on the wisdom of doing this. What do you folks think?

Thanks,
Dave Maples
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Emanuele, we are happy to see your success so far!

We wonder firstly if band 1 and 2 work = bring in stations at all?

It seems strange that 2 bands have the same symptoms, and they are in the first RF and the second RF tuning; in total 4 wonky circuits all acting the same way. ??

Could you have unintentionally moved the bandspread to counterclockwise ??before doing 2, and 1 ?

Also, it is sometimes possible to accidentally tune onto image frequency and get trapped on the image frequency rather than the desired one. From the ranges I think the images should all be above the desired frequency by 910 Kc/s.

If it is accidentally ?near the image now, I am wondering if you begin again on these bands with the cap fully in maybe it will latch onto the desired frequency first. There must be a better way to state all that stuff, but it is a thought.

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Emanuele Girlando via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 3, 2025 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

?

Hello again guys.

Performing the RF alignment of the S-85 I am refurbishing, I got the following problem in bands 1 and 2.

?

The setup conditions were as per service manual:?
Sig-gen (HP 8640B) connected to the rig via my DIY RTMA Dummy Antenna. Signal level -80dBm , AM modulation at 30%.
Dials, switches and regulations as per service manual.


The OSC setup went trough seamlessly allowing a quasi perfect dials alignment.
Unfortunately ?C4 and C15 (ANT and MIXER band1) and C3 and C14 (ANT and MIXER band2) didn't peak and had to be set at minimum capacitance (all open) ?just to get the higher output signal possible.

?

Does anybody have any idea about the cause of such a problem and/or suggestion on how to fix it?

?

Thank you very much.

Emanuele (IU1KNR).

https://egirland.blogspot.com

_._,_._,_


--
don??? va3drl
Re: S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

My first thought is the bandswitch.? Work it back and forth and use some deoxit or other contact cleaner.? Of course inspect it and use your DMM to verify continuity too.? You mention problems with Bands 1/2 but the manual has you align the high bands first.? Do the high bands work ok?? If none of the bands work right, try tracing the signal through each stage.? Inject your signal at the ANT and probe with a scope S1A-front, C3/C4, S1A-rear, etc.
S-85 refurbish: I've got a problem during the RF alignment of bands 1 and 2 - trimcaps don't peak!

 

Hello again guys.
Performing the RF alignment of the S-85 I am refurbishing, I got the following problem in bands 1 and 2.
?
The setup conditions were as per service manual:?
Sig-gen (HP 8640B) connected to the rig via my DIY RTMA Dummy Antenna. Signal level -80dBm , AM modulation at 30%.
Dials, switches and regulations as per service manual.

The OSC setup went trough seamlessly allowing a quasi perfect dials alignment.
Unfortunately ?C4 and C15 (ANT and MIXER band1) and C3 and C14 (ANT and MIXER band2) didn't peak and had to be set at minimum capacitance (all open) ?just to get the higher output signal possible.
?
Does anybody have any idea about the cause of such a problem and/or suggestion on how to fix it?
?
Thank you very much.
Emanuele (IU1KNR).
https://egirland.blogspot.com
Re: SX-117 run number?

 

Hi......Jack!
Cool!? Mine is run 6; its prefix is 117005.
Curiously, the next 3 digits on mine are 416.? Yours are 516.? I wonder what those 3 digits mean.? Is it a coincidence that both have "16"?
Please let me know if you run across documentation showing changes for runs 6 and/or 7 compared to run 5 as described in Walt's excellent documentation.
Cheers,
Halden VE7UTS
Re: SX-117 run number?

 
Edited

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

That would be a 7th?production run receiver. The first production run is always a zero in the last digit of?the first set of 6 numbers, a 1 is run 2 and so on.



Walt Cates, WD0GOF
?
A majority of acceptance is not proof of correctness.


From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Jack Brabham - KZ5A via groups.io <kz5a.jack@...>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2025 1:13 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-117 run number?
?
I just? recieved a? SX-117 thatI plan to restore and put in service.? It's serial number doesn't seem to match up with Walt's run list.? I'm assuming that the first 6 digits are the serial number and the last are a sequence number
Or is it the other way around? Help!
?
Thanks,
?
73 Jack KZ5A
?
SX-117 run number?

 
Edited

I just? recieved a? SX-117 thatI plan to restore and put in service.? It's serial number doesn't seem to match up with Walt's run list.? I'm assuming that the first 6 digits are the serial number and the last are a sequence number
Or is it the other way around? Help!
?
Thanks,
?
73 Jack KZ5A
?
Re: S-85 (SX-99) IF cans alignment : What adjusting tool do I have to use to match the size of the cores' slot?

 
Edited

Thank you very much to all of you for your suggestions.
I preferred option 2: craft the tool my self.
?
Paul: I suppose you misread my first statement: it is the last "task" in a project, no the last "project". I don't have so many Hallis waiting to be refurbished, but I am a proud owner of an SX-28 waiting to be treated since ... 20 years! ugh!
You said:"Think about using one of your existing tuning tools, cutting off the existing end and reshaping for the needed slugs. ?Be sure to use one which will go into the IF can and which is not needed. " .. and that is exactly what I did. Here is the result:
It works!
The tip is 2.2mm x 4mm.
You also said: "Also if the slug won¡¯t turn apply a small amount of heat from a low heat gun or SMD desoldering heat gun to loosen any old hard wax inside.".
It was the case and your suggestion worked very well.
?
D.
I used the sizes you indicated as a guide to craft the bit. Thank you.
My tool is not covering the entire slot length.. the slot length appears to be greater than 4mm. But 4mm is the diameter of the hole you have to insert the tool in, so there is no way to use a blade longer than 4mm.
At least it is wide enough (2.2mm) to provide adequate clearance to maintain core integrity under torsional loading.
?
Once again: thank you very much to all of you!
Emanuele.
https://egirland.blogspot.com
?
Re: S-85 (SX-99) IF cans alignment : What adjusting tool do I have to use to match the size of the cores' slot?

 
Edited

This set should work for you.
?
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