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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育The crystal in my old super pro is rather large . It is in a bakelite holder with removable electrodes.? It's been a while since I've been into it but I don't remember it's being spring loaded or tight.? The crystal is a mechanical resonator and I think must not be restrained too much.? Later crystals are plated,? the coating acting as the electrodes but I think being elastically mounted.? I am not sure I remember all the details. The crystal in my AR 88 looks much like the posted pix bot I've never opened it. Tapping it does make a noise but it's pretty broad in its narrowest setting so I have never noticed any shifting.? -------- Original message -------- From: Jacques_VE2JFE <jacques.f@...> Date: 11/3/22 12:48 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability Hi Dan, You wrote: But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. There is several examples of old radios using a “loose resonator crystal”. The old models of HRO use a plug-in crystal that “rattle” when you shake the holder. Another fairly well explained case is here: Go half-way down the page. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal |
Re: SX-110 IF Alignment Question
开云体育FYI – I stumbled across this video, which helped answer some of my questions.? The focus was the SX62, but the principles and circuitry are nearly the same.? It was some of the best 30 minutes of crystal filter theory and alignment training I’ve ever run across.? Highly recommend. ? ? 73 – Steve, KW4H From: <[email protected]> on behalf of "KW4H via groups.io" <reedsteve@...> ? So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer? ? 73 – Steve, KW4H |
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育An update.? I just did another crystal alignment and yet again found the right spot and re-confirmed the crystal oscillator frequency null is at 453.410 KHz.? However, there is no doubt that merely tapping on the crystal – even a tiny bit – causes the null point to noticeably change when the crystal is in use.? Now – to be realistic – that’s what the crystal phasing control is for, and it won’t end up in exactly the same place every time.? If it shifts a little, the phasing control ends up in a different position when you adjust it.? So, for a receiver this old – meh – and probably no one cared back then at this price point.? Nevertheless, I’m going to try replacing the crystal with one that doesn’t jiggle.? Just because. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Dan <pitfit@...> ? Perfect. ? Woulda thunk it? ? Thanks. ? Dan WB4GRA
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
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On Nov 3, 2022, at 3:46 PM, Jacques_VE2JFE <jacques.f@...> wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育Hi Dan, You wrote: But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. There is several examples of old radios using a “loose resonator crystal”. The old models of HRO use a plug-in crystal that “rattle” when you shake the holder. Another fairly well explained case is here: Go half-way down the page. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal |
Re: SX-110 IF Alignment Question
开云体育Scott.?You are trying to set the signal generator and the pitch control to the xtal frequency simultaneously.? The remarks column gives the procedure. The sig gen will peak at ?xtal freq, the pitch will dip to minimum. The correct spot is when they coincide. The pitch will attenuate the sig gen giving the “lowest peak” / “maximum dip”. 1. Adjust pitch to min.? 2. Adjust gen to peak.? 3. Repeat until 1and 2coincide.? Start at one end of pitch range and slowly move toward the other end. Do not reverse the pitch control.? 73 Dick. K9FFK Sent from my iThing which often corrects my typing and what I say.? On Nov 3, 2022, at 1:36 PM, Scott Petersen <s-petersen@...> wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育Yeah, thanks for the reply.I am really interested in your ongoing experience here. I've measured actual IF crystal resonances of crystals both in and out of the radio - usually by sweeping them with a SA. A scope in x/y mode is also useful Most of my experience is with the single conversion Hammarlund HQ-series filters but Halli and others all use a similar switching design with crystal phasing that dates back into the 1930's. I look forward to your continued adventures that we can all learn from. Please keep posting! Dan WB4GRA On Nov 3, 2022, at 2:16 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
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Re: SX-110 IF Alignment Question
开云体育
I'm a little foggy on this, but I believe you are supposed to set it for highest output I think
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 2:26 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 IF Alignment Question ?
So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer? ? 73 – Steve, KW4H |
SX-110 IF Alignment Question
开云体育So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer? ? 73 – Steve, KW4H |
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育My perspective is somewhat odd – every boat anchor I restore is a learning experience.? I tend to fuss around with things not because I’m unsatisfied, but because I’m curious. ? On the crystal – after much more research, the crystal is loose in the chamber inside the holder because that’s the way it was.? I also discovered that the IN-circuit resonant frequency is going to be somewhat different than the OUT-of-circuit resonance; therefore, there’s no significant value in testing the crystal outside of the radio unless a bad crystal is suspected.? And, as you’ve pointed out, the potential difference in resonant frequency from repositioning the radio is rather minimal.? I’m still going to test with a replacement 455 KHz crystal anyway – because, well, I’m curious. ? Next I have a question about the IF alignment, but will post that under a different subject so this doesn’t go on forever. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? From: <[email protected]> on behalf of Dan <pitfit@...> ? ? ??Is it just me (always a possibility!) or have we lost some perspective here? ? ? If you're getting +/- 50 hertz out of a 61 year old single crystal filter in a $160 radio made when Eisenhower might have been President, just align the radio at 453.750 and you'll be fine. ? Like you, I >am< a little circumspect about anything rattling around loose in the crystal case when shaking it. That's curious. I've removed, handled, and measured several crystal cases like yours from the single conversion HQ Hammarlunds and they don't rattle. What inside the case assembly makes you think the crystal was intended to be mounted loosely when you took it apart? Maybe it should be? I've never opened such a case. Could be, I guess. But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. ? Please continue posting since this is of interest to us. I'm especially curious how you intend to remount the new 455 crystal you have coming. ? Summarizing, I'm suspicious of the rattling sound you report when shaking your crystal case - seems a red flag to me - but +/- 50 hertz?? ? You'll never hear it or know it. Align it at 453.750 and go shortwave listening! ? Dan WB4GRA
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育? ??Is it just me (always a possibility!) or have we lost some perspective here? ? If you're getting +/- 50 hertz out of a 61 year old single crystal filter in a $160 radio made when Eisenhower might have been President, just align the radio at 453.750 and you'll be fine. Like you, I >am< a little circumspect about anything rattling around loose in the crystal case when shaking it. That's curious. I've removed, handled, and measured several crystal cases like yours from the single conversion HQ Hammarlunds and they don't rattle. What inside the case assembly makes you think the crystal was intended to be mounted loosely when you took it apart? Maybe it should be? I've never opened such a case. Could be, I guess. But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. Please continue posting since this is of interest to us. I'm especially curious how you intend to remount the new 455 crystal you have coming. Summarizing, I'm suspicious of the rattling sound you report when shaking your crystal case - seems a red flag to me - but +/- 50 hertz?? You'll never hear it or know it. Align it at 453.750 and go shortwave listening! Dan WB4GRA On Nov 2, 2022, at 5:01 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Remember Jack that got booted from the forum for totally going off topic? Being old is fine, but do it in your own head.? I use the tracking generator on my hp8920 to look at the crystals when I rebuild the old Hallicrafters. On Wed, Nov 2, 2022, 9:29 PM Richard Knoppow <1oldlens1@...> wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育驰耻辫… ? Bill Gannon…. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Robert Needleman via groups.io ? Just the facts ma’am.? ? K3AC
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育Not necessarily… In the old times, Xtals were loose inside their holders, on purpose… ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de n7qmm25 ? The crystal should be held firmly in place. Sounds like some thing is missing inside the holder. On 11/2/2022 12:55 PM, KW4H via groups.io wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育I agree.? ?Unfortunately, Jack Webb had no discipline.? To go really far back, and we'll before my time,? look on archive.org for "calling all cars"? unfortunately some scripts are very racist but a very done cop show and will give you some idea of where Webb stole some of his.ideas.? it was famous in its day for realistic sound effects as was Dragnet.? You have hit on a favorite subject but I will shut up now. -------- Original message -------- From: "Robert Needleman via groups.io" <k3ac@...> Date: 11/2/22 6:02 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability K3AC
On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
开云体育Ya,, ?this? sgt Friday shifted up to 88+megabicycles before terminating the transmission. Friday ?came in on a big old Slivertone? which had 78,58 etc tubes , no octals, but never came in ?on my home built ?EICO HFT-90 ?designed and sold just before the FM stereo scheme got finalized, but for its age it had amazing temperature stability.? Ooops off-track again Don VA3DRL ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of wekemp@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 8:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability ? De Sergeant Friday |
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
? Book 'em, Danno! (oops, wrong show!) ? WA9LAE ? -----Original Message-----
From: <[email protected]> Sent: Nov 2, 2022 8:02 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability ? Just the facts ma’am.??
K3AC
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
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Re: SX-62 FM respons
开云体育HI Richard; he didn’t say? anything about what goes on for other stations .. But if only at the end of the dial , what you propose is possible i guess, if cap can go over the hill ?.. Don VA3DRL ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Knoppow
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 7:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons ? If I understand the question the double.tuning is at one frequency at the bottom of the FM band.? It seems to me that an IF problem would show up on all stations.? A problem with the oscillator should show up on AM as well.? Am I misunderstanding something? ? ? ? ? ? -------- Original message -------- From: don Root <drootofallevil@...> Date: 11/2/22 4:16 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons ? IF might have two peaks? and capture ratio can “lock” onto ?either ..depending on cap position Don VA3DRL ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Knoppow ? I am not familiar with the construction of rhe SX 62 but wonder if it's possible that the rotor is going past maximum capacitance so that it's tuning higher again.? Visual inspection would probably tell. ? ? ? ? ? -------- Original message -------- From: "Waldo Magnuson via groups.io" <magnuson@...> Date: 11/2/22 2:44 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons ? ? ?I listen often to my SX-62, almost all FM. ?It takes about 7 to 10 minutes to stabilize on frequency. ?My question is that I have two peaks when I tune (88.7), ?is that sort of normal or was I just a bit sloppy when I aligned it 4 or 5 years ago? |
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
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