Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
An update.? I just did another crystal alignment and yet again found the right spot and re-confirmed the crystal oscillator frequency null is at 453.410 KHz.? However, there is no doubt that merely tapping on the crystal – even a tiny bit – causes the null point to noticeably change when the crystal is in use.? Now – to be realistic – that’s what the crystal phasing control is for, and it won’t end up in exactly the same place every time.? If it shifts a little, the phasing control ends up in a different position when you adjust it.? So, for a receiver this old – meh – and probably no one cared back then at this price point.? Nevertheless, I’m going to try replacing the crystal with one that doesn’t jiggle.? Just because. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? Perfect.
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On Nov 3, 2022, at 3:46 PM, Jacques_VE2JFE <jacques.f@...> wrote:
? Hi Dan, You wrote: But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. There is several examples of old radios using a “loose resonator crystal”. The old models of HRO use a plug-in crystal that “rattle” when you shake the holder. Another fairly well explained case is here: Go half-way down the page. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Perfect.
Woulda thunk it?
Thanks.
Dan
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On Nov 3, 2022, at 3:46 PM, Jacques_VE2JFE <jacques.f@...> wrote:
? Hi Dan, You wrote: But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. There is several examples of old radios using a “loose resonator crystal”. The old models of HRO use a plug-in crystal that “rattle” when you shake the holder. Another fairly well explained case is here: Go half-way down the page. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Hi Dan, You wrote: But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. There is several examples of old radios using a “loose resonator crystal”. The old models of HRO use a plug-in crystal that “rattle” when you shake the holder. Another fairly well explained case is here: Go half-way down the page. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal
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Re: SX-110 IF Alignment Question
Scott.? You are trying to set the signal generator and the pitch control to the xtal frequency simultaneously.? The remarks column gives the procedure. The sig gen will peak at ?xtal freq, the pitch will dip to minimum. The correct spot is when they coincide. The pitch will attenuate the sig gen giving the “lowest peak” / “maximum dip”. 1. Adjust pitch to min.? 2. Adjust gen to peak.? 3. Repeat until 1and 2coincide.? Start at one end of pitch range and slowly move toward the other end. Do not reverse the pitch control.? 73 Dick. K9FFK Sent from my iThing which often corrects my typing and what I say.?
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On Nov 3, 2022, at 1:36 PM, Scott Petersen <s-petersen@...> wrote:
?
I'm a little foggy on this, but I believe you are supposed to set it for highest output I think
So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly
not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary
rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about
it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer?
?
73 – Steve, KW4H
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Yeah, thanks for the reply.
I am really interested in your ongoing experience here. I've measured actual IF crystal resonances of crystals both in and out of the radio - usually by sweeping them with a SA. A scope in x/y mode is also useful
Most of my experience is with the single conversion Hammarlund HQ-series filters but Halli and others all use a similar switching design with crystal phasing that dates back into the 1930's.
I look forward to your continued adventures that we can all learn from. Please keep posting!
Dan
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On Nov 3, 2022, at 2:16 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
? My perspective is somewhat odd – every boat anchor I restore is a learning experience.? I tend to fuss around with things not because I’m unsatisfied, but because I’m curious. ? On the crystal – after much more research, the crystal is loose in the chamber inside the holder because that’s the way it was.? I also discovered that the IN-circuit resonant frequency is going to be somewhat different than the OUT-of-circuit resonance; therefore, there’s no significant value in testing the crystal outside of the radio unless a bad crystal is suspected.? And, as you’ve pointed out, the potential difference in resonant frequency from repositioning the radio is rather minimal.? I’m still going to test with a replacement 455 KHz crystal anyway – because, well, I’m curious. ? Next I have a question about the IF alignment, but will post that under a different subject so this doesn’t go on forever. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? ? ??Is it just me (always a possibility!) or have we lost some perspective here? ? If you're getting +/- 50 hertz out of a 61 year old single crystal filter in a $160 radio made when Eisenhower might have been President, just align the radio at 453.750 and you'll be fine. Like you, I >am< a little circumspect about anything rattling around loose in the crystal case when shaking it. That's curious. I've removed, handled, and measured several crystal cases like yours from the single conversion HQ Hammarlunds and they don't rattle. What inside the case assembly makes you think the crystal was intended to be mounted loosely when you took it apart? Maybe it should be? I've never opened such a case. Could be, I guess. But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. Please continue posting since this is of interest to us. I'm especially curious how you intend to remount the new 455 crystal you have coming. Summarizing, I'm suspicious of the rattling sound you report when shaking your crystal case - seems a red flag to me - but +/- 50 hertz?? You'll never hear it or know it. Align it at 453.750 and go shortwave listening! WB4GRA
On Nov 2, 2022, at 5:01 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
? The crystal from the SX-71 did the same thing in the test setup, with the signal generator and scope.? For now, I’ve returned the original crystal to the SX-110 and am going through the IF alignment again, but this time with more knowledge about the resonant frequency.? Want to see where I land and more about the effects of repositioning the radio (on its side, right side up, etc).? The new(er) 455 KHz crystal will be here in a few days – I’ll swap it out then and we’ll see what effect that has, following another alignment. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? Steve … doing the same thing in the test setup or in the receiver or both? I am a curious reader at this time Don VA3DRL ? ? Yeah, I ordered a couple of 455 KHz crystals today.? It would be good to have another on hand.? ? FYI, I stumble onto these things because I restore boat anchors (mostly receivers) for educational and historical purposes.? I also write articles for ER magazine, and the extra information is fun and interesting.? Anyway, I’m more likely to remove a component and test it out of curiosity rather than questioning the design.? The unstable crystal caught me by surprise! ?And just for the heck of it, I pulled a similar crystal out of a SX-71 awaiting restoration and it’s doing exactly the same thing.? Still mulling that over. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? I've owned several SX-110's over the years, including the one I used as a Novice back in '67, that was like new I acquired from original owner. Never had any issues with xtal instability. They all were fairly stable after initial 10-15 min. warmup. Sounds like you need a new xtal.
In a message dated 11/2/2022 1:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, reedsteve@... writes:
Sent from Proton Mail for iOS On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:20 AM, Richard Knoppow <1oldlens1@...> wrote: I am not an expert but think this is not normal.? ?It looks like the crystal holder comes apart.? ?Perhaps cleaning crystal and electrodes will fix it. -------- Original message -------- From: "KW4H via groups.io" <reedsteve@...> Date: 11/2/22 9:28 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability Attached is a photo of the crystal in my SX-110.? I pulled the crystal to test its resonant frequency using a sig gen and scope, and the darn thing is so unstable it’s driving me loopy.? The resonant frequency can vary (roughly) between 453.700 KHz and 453.800 KHz by simply moving it around, no matter how gently.? Pardon my ignorance, but is that normal for crystals of this vintage?? Is there a reason, operationally in the Hallicrafters, for a crystal to act like this?? Before I order a different (and more stable) crystal to solder into the circuit, thought I should ask. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? ?
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Re: SX-110 IF Alignment Question
I'm a little foggy on this, but I believe you are supposed to set it for highest output I think
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So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly
not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary
rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about
it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer?
?
73 – Steve, KW4H
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SX-110 IF Alignment Question
So – this is something I’ve gone over and over again in the alignment instructions and I can’t find an answer.? Hallicrafters wants the IF aligned to the frequency of the crystal (which is almost certainly not going to be on exactly 455 KHz).? To identify the crystal frequency, you slowly sweep the signal generator above or below 455 KHz until you discover a sharp notch.? I’ve done that – no problem.? But, here’s the catch:? the location of that notch can vary rather signficantly with the position of the crystal phasing control, and there’s nothing in the alignment instructions about the correct position for the phasing control.? Been scratching my head over this, and so far I haven’t found any information about it online.? Anyone here run into this before and have an answer? ? 73 – Steve, KW4H
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
My perspective is somewhat odd – every boat anchor I restore is a learning experience.? I tend to fuss around with things not because I’m unsatisfied, but because I’m curious. ? On the crystal – after much more research, the crystal is loose in the chamber inside the holder because that’s the way it was.? I also discovered that the IN-circuit resonant frequency is going to be somewhat different than the OUT-of-circuit resonance; therefore, there’s no significant value in testing the crystal outside of the radio unless a bad crystal is suspected.? And, as you’ve pointed out, the potential difference in resonant frequency from repositioning the radio is rather minimal.? I’m still going to test with a replacement 455 KHz crystal anyway – because, well, I’m curious. ? Next I have a question about the IF alignment, but will post that under a different subject so this doesn’t go on forever. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? ? ??Is it just me (always a possibility!) or have we lost some perspective here? ? If you're getting +/- 50 hertz out of a 61 year old single crystal filter in a $160 radio made when Eisenhower might have been President, just align the radio at 453.750 and you'll be fine. Like you, I >am< a little circumspect about anything rattling around loose in the crystal case when shaking it. That's curious. I've removed, handled, and measured several crystal cases like yours from the single conversion HQ Hammarlunds and they don't rattle. What inside the case assembly makes you think the crystal was intended to be mounted loosely when you took it apart? Maybe it should be? I've never opened such a case. Could be, I guess. But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that. Please continue posting since this is of interest to us. I'm especially curious how you intend to remount the new 455 crystal you have coming. Summarizing, I'm suspicious of the rattling sound you report when shaking your crystal case - seems a red flag to me - but +/- 50 hertz?? You'll never hear it or know it. Align it at 453.750 and go shortwave listening!
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 5:01 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
? The crystal from the SX-71 did the same thing in the test setup, with the signal generator and scope.? For now, I’ve returned the original crystal to the SX-110 and am going through the IF alignment again, but this time with more knowledge about the resonant frequency.? Want to see where I land and more about the effects of repositioning the radio (on its side, right side up, etc).? The new(er) 455 KHz crystal will be here in a few days – I’ll swap it out then and we’ll see what effect that has, following another alignment. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? Steve … doing the same thing in the test setup or in the receiver or both? I am a curious reader at this time Don VA3DRL ? ? Yeah, I ordered a couple of 455 KHz crystals today.? It would be good to have another on hand.? ? FYI, I stumble onto these things because I restore boat anchors (mostly receivers) for educational and historical purposes.? I also write articles for ER magazine, and the extra information is fun and interesting.? Anyway, I’m more likely to remove a component and test it out of curiosity rather than questioning the design.? The unstable crystal caught me by surprise! ?And just for the heck of it, I pulled a similar crystal out of a SX-71 awaiting restoration and it’s doing exactly the same thing.? Still mulling that over. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? I've owned several SX-110's over the years, including the one I used as a Novice back in '67, that was like new I acquired from original owner. Never had any issues with xtal instability. They all were fairly stable after initial 10-15 min. warmup. Sounds like you need a new xtal.
In a message dated 11/2/2022 1:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, reedsteve@... writes:
Sent from Proton Mail for iOS On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:20 AM, Richard Knoppow <1oldlens1@...> wrote: I am not an expert but think this is not normal.? ?It looks like the crystal holder comes apart.? ?Perhaps cleaning crystal and electrodes will fix it. -------- Original message -------- From: "KW4H via groups.io" <reedsteve@...> Date: 11/2/22 9:28 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability Attached is a photo of the crystal in my SX-110.? I pulled the crystal to test its resonant frequency using a sig gen and scope, and the darn thing is so unstable it’s driving me loopy.? The resonant frequency can vary (roughly) between 453.700 KHz and 453.800 KHz by simply moving it around, no matter how gently.? Pardon my ignorance, but is that normal for crystals of this vintage?? Is there a reason, operationally in the Hallicrafters, for a crystal to act like this?? Before I order a different (and more stable) crystal to solder into the circuit, thought I should ask. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? ?
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Hallicrafters Cyclone III Wanted
Hallicrafters Cyclone III wanted in excellent condition with HA-20 remote VFO.? I can be contacted at my ARRL.net e-mail address.
Paul, W9AC??
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
? ??Is it just me (always a possibility!) or have we lost some perspective here? ?
If you're getting +/- 50 hertz out of a 61 year old single crystal filter in a $160 radio made when Eisenhower might have been President, just align the radio at 453.750 and you'll be fine.
Like you, I >am< a little circumspect about anything rattling around loose in the crystal case when shaking it. That's curious. I've removed, handled, and measured several crystal cases like yours from the single conversion HQ Hammarlunds and they don't rattle. What inside the case assembly makes you think the crystal was intended to be mounted loosely when you took it apart? Maybe it should be? I've never opened such a case. Could be, I guess. But a loose mounted crystal wafer rattling about and being OK isn't an intuitive conclusion. Like to learn more about that.
Please continue posting since this is of interest to us. I'm especially curious how you intend to remount the new 455 crystal you have coming.
Summarizing, I'm suspicious of the rattling sound you report when shaking your crystal case - seems a red flag to me - but +/- 50 hertz??
You'll never hear it or know it. Align it at 453.750 and go shortwave listening!
Dan
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 5:01 PM, KW4H via groups.io <reedsteve@...> wrote:
? The crystal from the SX-71 did the same thing in the test setup, with the signal generator and scope.? For now, I’ve returned the original crystal to the SX-110 and am going through the IF alignment again, but this time with more knowledge about the resonant frequency.? Want to see where I land and more about the effects of repositioning the radio (on its side, right side up, etc).? The new(er) 455 KHz crystal will be here in a few days – I’ll swap it out then and we’ll see what effect that has, following another alignment. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? Steve … doing the same thing in the test setup or in the receiver or both? I am a curious reader at this time Don VA3DRL ? ? Yeah, I ordered a couple of 455 KHz crystals today.? It would be good to have another on hand.? ? FYI, I stumble onto these things because I restore boat anchors (mostly receivers) for educational and historical purposes.? I also write articles for ER magazine, and the extra information is fun and interesting.? Anyway, I’m more likely to remove a component and test it out of curiosity rather than questioning the design.? The unstable crystal caught me by surprise! ?And just for the heck of it, I pulled a similar crystal out of a SX-71 awaiting restoration and it’s doing exactly the same thing.? Still mulling that over. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? I've owned several SX-110's over the years, including the one I used as a Novice back in '67, that was like new I acquired from original owner. Never had any issues with xtal instability. They all were fairly stable after initial 10-15 min. warmup. Sounds like you need a new xtal.
In a message dated 11/2/2022 1:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, reedsteve@... writes:
Sent from Proton Mail for iOS On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 10:20 AM, Richard Knoppow <1oldlens1@...> wrote: I am not an expert but think this is not normal.? ?It looks like the crystal holder comes apart.? ?Perhaps cleaning crystal and electrodes will fix it. -------- Original message -------- From: "KW4H via groups.io" <reedsteve@...> Date: 11/2/22 9:28 AM (GMT-08:00) Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability Attached is a photo of the crystal in my SX-110.? I pulled the crystal to test its resonant frequency using a sig gen and scope, and the darn thing is so unstable it’s driving me loopy.? The resonant frequency can vary (roughly) between 453.700 KHz and 453.800 KHz by simply moving it around, no matter how gently.? Pardon my ignorance, but is that normal for crystals of this vintage?? Is there a reason, operationally in the Hallicrafters, for a crystal to act like this?? Before I order a different (and more stable) crystal to solder into the circuit, thought I should ask. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? ?
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Remember Jack that got booted from the forum for totally going off topic? Being old is fine, but do it in your own head.? I use the tracking generator on my hp8920 to look at the crystals when I rebuild the old Hallicrafters.
On Wed, Nov 2, 2022, 9:29 PM Richard Knoppow < 1oldlens1@...> wrote: I agree.? ?Unfortunately, Jack Webb had no discipline.? To go really far back, and we'll before my time,? look on for "calling all cars"? unfortunately some scripts are very racist but a very done cop show and will give you some idea of where Webb stole some of his.ideas.? it was famous in its day for realistic sound effects as was Dragnet.? You have hit on a favorite subject but I will shut up now.
-------- Original message -------- Date: 11/2/22 6:02 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability
Just the facts ma’am.?
K3AC ?De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
驰耻辫… ? Bill Gannon…. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? ? Just the facts ma’am.?
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
?De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Not necessarily… In the old times, Xtals were loose inside their holders, on purpose… ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? ? The crystal should be held firmly in place. Sounds like some thing is missing inside the holder.
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On 11/2/2022 12:55 PM, KW4H via groups.io wrote: The crystal inside the holder rattles around a little – it’s not being held in place.? I’ve opened the holder up and cleaned everything, but it looks like it was designed that way.? The motion of the crystal appears to be the cause of the changing point of resonance. ? 73 – Steve, KW4H ? Is the Xtal loose in the holder, or clamped from both sides ?? ? The crystal holder in your picture looks like the one in my SX-42, btw… ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
I agree.? ?Unfortunately, Jack Webb had no discipline.? To go really far back, and we'll before my time,? look on archive.org for "calling all cars"? unfortunately some scripts are very racist but a very done cop show and will give you some idea of where Webb stole some of his.ideas.? it was famous in its day for realistic sound effects as was Dragnet.? You have hit on a favorite subject but I will shut up now.
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-------- Original message -------- From: "Robert Needleman via groups.io" <k3ac@...> Date: 11/2/22 6:02 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability
Just the facts ma’am.?
K3AC On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
?De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
Ya,, ?this? sgt Friday shifted up to 88+megabicycles before terminating the transmission. Friday ?came in on a big old Slivertone? which had 78,58 etc tubes , no octals, but never came in ?on my home built ?EICO HFT-90 ?designed and sold just before the FM stereo scheme got finalized, but for its age it had amazing temperature stability.? Ooops off-track again Don VA3DRL ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of wekemp@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 8:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability? De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
?
Book 'em, Danno! (oops, wrong show!)
?
WA9LAE
?
-----Original Message----- From: < [email protected]> Sent: Nov 2, 2022 8:02 PM To: < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-110 Crystal Instability
?
Just the facts ma’am.?
?
K3AC
?
On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
?
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HI Richard; he didn’t say? anything about what goes on for other stations .. But if only at the end of the dial , what you propose is possible i guess, if cap can go over the hill ?.. Don VA3DRL ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Knoppow
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons? If I understand the question the double.tuning is at one frequency at the bottom of the FM band.? It seems to me that an IF problem would show up on all stations.? A problem with the oscillator should show up on AM as well.? Am I misunderstanding something? -------- Original message -------- From: don Root <drootofallevil@...> Date: 11/2/22 4:16 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons IF might have two peaks? and capture ratio can “lock” onto ?either ..depending on cap position Don VA3DRL ? ? I am not familiar with the construction of rhe SX 62 but wonder if it's possible that the rotor is going past maximum capacitance so that it's tuning higher again.? Visual inspection would probably tell. -------- Original message -------- From: "Waldo Magnuson via groups.io" <magnuson@...> Date: 11/2/22 2:44 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: [HallicraftersRadios] SX-62 FM respons ? ?I listen often to my SX-62, almost all FM. ?It takes about 7 to 10 minutes to stabilize on frequency. ?My question is that I have two peaks when I tune (88.7), ?is that sort of normal or was I just a bit sloppy when I aligned it 4 or 5 years ago?
Skip Magnuson W7WGM?
Spokane, WA
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Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
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On Nov 2, 2022, at 8:50 PM, wekemp@... wrote:
?De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
|
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
De Sergeant Friday
I liked Dragnet better when it was on AM radio. Not many will remember this.
|
Re: SX-110 Crystal Instability
The crystal should be held firmly in place. Sounds like some
thing is missing inside the holder.
On 11/2/2022 12:55 PM, KW4H via
groups.io wrote:
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The crystal inside the holder rattles
around a little – it’s not being held in place.? I’ve opened
the holder up and cleaned everything, but it looks like it was
designed that way.? The motion of the crystal appears to be
the cause of the changing point of resonance.
?
73 – Steve, KW4H
?
Is the Xtal loose in the holder, or clamped
from both sides ??
?
The crystal holder in your picture looks like
the one in my SX-42, btw…
?
73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal
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Jacques_VE2JFE
Paul Christensen
don Root