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Ahhhhh So!
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To get to the screen your link showed, I have to click the username for MY account. ?As earlier stated, ?On THAT screen the obvious options are MY email address, password, social logins, group email addresses and MY subscription. ?Nothing whatsoever about ¡°setting¡± time. ?If I THEN go to the menu on the LEFT, just under ¡°Login¡± is ¡°±Ê°ù±ð´Ú±ð°ù±ð²Ô³¦±ð²õ¡±. ?THAT brings up the screen in your link.
?
I wish the headings were more clear. ?Only if I go to the bottom of the screen your link takes me can I see that these ¡°Preferences¡± are purely (?) for MY account. ?THERE I selected the 24 Hour Clock. ?
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When, as group Owner, I go to ¡°Admin/Settings/Default Sub Setting", 5th option down is to set the ¡°Time Display¡±, THERE I selected ¡°standard Time¡± because everyone in my group may not be familiar the military 24 Hour Clock.
?
So these are two different choices above and beyond ¡°calendar¡±-specific choice(s). ?Easy to get confused.
?
Perhaps it would be more clear if captions made it clear as to whether one is setting things for ¡°My Account¡± or ¡°Group¡± or ¡°Group Calendar¡± when it comes to setting ¡°Timezone¡±, ¡°Time Display,¡± and perhaps ¡°Date Display¡± and ¡°Monday Start¡± in (1 ) MY Account, (2) Group Settings¡± and (3) ¡°Calendar Settings¡±.
?
Best!
?
WRB
?
On Jan 4, 2020, at 5:38 PM, Frances < frances@...> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 06:34 PM, wrote:
I¡¯m a Group Owner here on since November with a 2018 Mac mini running Mojave and Firefox browser. ?Read what you said¡decided to check what I had done with my group.?
?
Presumed your ¡°home page¡± reference to be ¡°Group Home Page¡±. ?Only thing in upper right corner (of ALL pages) is MY Account. ?Only options THERE are MY email address, password, social logins, group email addresses and MY subscription. ?Nothing whatsoever about ¡°setting¡± time.?
?
My ¡°Group Home Page¡± contains our group picture and description, some Group Information and Group Settings and Message History statistics. ?Nothing whatsoever about ¡°setting¡± time.?
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If I go to ¡°Admin/Settings/Default Sub Setting", 4th option down is to set the ¡°Timezone¡±.
?
Why so much difference between what you described and what I saw/experienced?
?
Best!
?
WRB
In the upper right side (my account), Preferences - there is time zone. Sorry, I guess I wasn't precise enough in my language.. /account?page=prefsFrances ? -- Moving to Groups.io (without easy transfer)
GMF Wiki: (unofficial) Help for members (and would-be members) and group managers
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WRB, To get to the screen your link showed, I have to click the username
for MY account. ...
If I THEN go to the menu on the LEFT, just under ¡°Login¡± is
¡°±Ê°ù±ð´Ú±ð°ù±ð²Ô³¦±ð²õ¡±. More broadly, in Groups.io the content of the navigation pane on the left is based on where you are in the site. If you are looking at a Group's pages then the links there are specific to that group, and may differ depending on the settings of that group and your Role there (Member, Mod, or Owner). As you've now seen there are a different set of pages associated with your Account. If you click on the Groups.io logo in the upper left of any page you'll find another set of pages, relating to all of your group subscriptions collectively. Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Hi Michael, Shal, Frances
Agreed, but these things are NOT in the ¡°upper right corner¡± (as originally suggested). See what I just said to Sandy to help her similarly access HER account and follow our discussion. Of course this may not be a ¡°default¡± browser presentation for everyone.
Further, there was confusion as to WHICH settings were before me¡those for MY ACCOUNT, those for MY GROUP of for the GROUP CALENDAR, each having a different purpose and effect. Yes, for ME, once in ¡°MY ACCOUNT, the choices are as you say; but THAT wasn¡¯t what I set out to verify. All the places to set these parameters for different purposes with different effects came as a surprise.
My original response revealed that I wanted to verify the setting [I thought I had picked] for MY GROUP. Michael, you said that ¡°This sets the defaults for future members¡±. I find that phrasing both specific and peculiar. It was my intent, as Owner, to set the GROUP default for ALL GROUP members.
It¡¯s very, very easy to get ¡°lost in the screens¡±¡to the point one wonders whether or not anyone ever OUTLINED such searches so that captions help keep one ¡°on course¡± among numerous similar options.
This experience reminds me of something said by Donald Rumsfeld: ¡°There are things we know that we know [and] there are things we know that we don¡¯t know. But there are also things we don¡¯t know that we know [and] there are things we don¡¯t know that we don¡¯t know.¡±
In the end, a site with procedures that are reasonably intuitive will be perceived as ¡°user-friendly¡±. I don¡¯t believe the above would meet that definition, best of intentions notwithstanding.
Best!
WRB
¡ª
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Show quoted text
On Jan 4, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Michael Pavan <michaelpavan@...> wrote:
On Jan 4, 2020, at 6:22 PM, txercoupemuseum.org <ercoguru@...> wrote:
Presumed your ¡°home page¡± reference to be ¡°Group Home Page¡±. Only thing in upper right corner (of ALL pages) is MY Account. Only options THERE are MY email address, password, social logins, group email addresses and MY subscription.
Nothing whatsoever about ¡°setting¡± time.
Go to Account, in the left hand column you'll find:
Login
Preferences
Security
Identity
Other Services
Recent Bounces
Billing
Click on "Preferences" to find:
Web Site Preferences
Timezone
Used for displaying dates on the website.
Time Display
How to display times on the website.
Date Display
How to display dates on the website.
Monday Start
If the calendar should start on Monday instead of Sunday.
Editor Preference
Which editor to use for composing messages on the website.
Items Per Page
Number of items displayed per page.
Email Preferences
My Messages
I always want copies of my own emails
Receive copies of your own emails sent to groups.
- Make your choices (by the way I suggest 100 items per page)
Then click on " Update Preferences"
My ¡°Group Home Page¡± contains our group picture and description, some Group Information and Group Settings and Message History statistics. Nothing whatsoever about ¡°setting¡± time.
If I go to ¡°Admin/Settings/Default Sub Setting", 4th option down is to set the ¡°Timezone¡±. This sets the defaults for future members
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On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 08:30 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
My original response revealed that I wanted to verify the setting [I thought I had picked] for MY GROUP. Michael, you said that ¡°This sets the defaults for future members¡±. I find that phrasing both specific and peculiar. It was my intent, as Owner, to set the GROUP default for ALL GROUP members.
I was confused by this too. I misread it but there is a time zone default for the group - in Admin, Settings, Default Subscription Settings. Just below Max Attachment Size.
This is apart from time zone in your own Account. And events in the calendar.
I would appreciate it if you double-checked the GMF wiki page. I moved the section on Subscription (lefthand menu) to the bottom below the different sections of Account (righthand).?/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Profile-and-Email-Address-and-Merging-Accounts%2C-Subscription
The wiki is (mostly) editable by all GMF members.
Frances
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--
Moving to Groups.io (without easy transfer)
GMF Wiki: (unofficial) Help for members (and would-be members) and group managers
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WRB, Agreed, but these things are NOT in the ¡°upper right corner¡± (as
originally suggested). But that's how you get to them - you drop the menu under your name, in the upper right corner, and select Account. Further, there was confusion as to WHICH settings were before me¡those
for MY ACCOUNT, those for MY GROUP If the links on the left show that you are on the Settings page then it is the Settings page for that particular group (or subgroup). You'll quickly get to recognize which collection of Nav links you have on the left: Group, Account, or Site. of for the GROUP CALENDAR, each having a different purpose and effect. That one is a special case. On any group's Calendar page there is a duplicate of your account's Time Zone setting. It is there for your convenience so that you don't have to navigate to your Account Preferences and back if you need to change your time zone. This setting does not affect other members of your group (but does affect your view of any group you visit). My original response revealed that I wanted to verify the setting [I
thought I had picked] for MY GROUP. A group does not have a time zone setting, only its members do. That's because group members may reside anywhere. Michael, you said that ¡°This sets the defaults for future members¡±. I
find that phrasing both specific and peculiar. It was my intent, as
Owner, to set the GROUP default for ALL GROUP members. The Time Zone, Time Display, and Date Display are account (per user) settings, not group or subscriber settings. In the Default Sub Settings tab of the group's settings page they set a default for new Groups.io users - addresses that have never had an account at Groups.io. Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Hi Shal,
Comments below in bold and ¡°< >¡± for clarity of reference.
WRB On Jan 4, 2020, at 7:47 PM, Shal Farley < shals2nd@...> wrote:
WRB,
> Agreed, but these things are NOT in the ¡°upper right corner¡± (as
> originally suggested).
But that's how you get to them - you drop the menu under your name, in the upper right corner, and select Account.
<Frances was responding to Otto-N4UZZ: ?¡°You can change your time zone in Account - upper right corner of the your home page.¡± ?
What I SHOULD said to Sandy: ?¡°At the top of any page there is?a horizontal blue ¡°menu¡±. ?At the extreme right should be whatever you have ¡°named¡± YOUR ¡°account¡±. ?In my case it¡¯s ¡°¡±.¡±
In Sandy's case (and mine), we didn¡¯t understand that the word ¡°Account¡± as used by Frances was an unintended ¡°code word¡± for whatever we had named our ¡°Account¡±. ?So yeah, we were at the right place; but no better off than being at the right house/address with no key to get in and no one home. ?We¡¯ve yet to hear how Otto fared ?;<) ?>
> Further, there was confusion as to WHICH settings were before me¡those
> for MY ACCOUNT, those for MY GROUP
If the links on the left show that you are on the Settings page then it is the Settings page for that particular group (or subgroup).
You'll quickly get to recognize which collection of Nav links you have on the left: Group, Account, or Site.
<As I said?¡°there was confusion" (on my part). ?I was able to mentally figure out what you said on my own. ?Got it!>
> of for the GROUP CALENDAR, each having a different purpose and effect.
That one is a special case.
On any group's Calendar page there is a duplicate of your account's Time Zone setting. It is there for your convenience so that you don't have to navigate to your Account Preferences and back if you need to change your time zone. This setting does not affect other members of your group (but does affect your view of any group you visit).
<Good to know if I ever use the Calendar.>
> My original response revealed that I wanted to verify the setting [I
> thought I had picked] for MY GROUP.
A group does not have a time zone setting, only its members do. That's because group members may reside anywhere.
<Makes sense.>
> Michael, you said that ¡°This sets the defaults for future members¡±. ?I
> find that phrasing both specific and peculiar. ?It was my intent, as
> Owner, to set the GROUP default for ALL GROUP members.
The Time Zone, Time Display, and Date Display are account (per user) settings, not group or subscriber settings.
<Aren't ¡°User account¡±,?¡°subscriber account¡±?and?¡°member account¡± the same, as opposed to?¡°group/owner account¡±?>
In the Default Sub Settings tab of the group's settings page they set a default for new users - addresses that have never had an account at .
<You here collectively define?¡° ..new users" [as] addresses that have never had an account at . ?It seems to me that everyone in the world is a?¡°?future member without a account¡± until they set one up. ?Perhaps this provision serves those groups with membership?¡°qualifications" that must be met before one can?¡°join¡±?>
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WRB,
> In Sandy's case (and mine), we didn¡¯t understand that the word
> ¡°Account¡± as used by Frances was an unintended ¡°code word¡± for
> whatever we had named our ¡°Account¡±.
We're a bit into the weeds now, but yes there was an unspoken assumption that readers would see that their name/address in the upper right corner is a menu, and that Account would be an item in the menu. One of the myriad places where a screen shot is worth a thousand words:
> As I said ¡°there was confusion" (on my part).? I was able to mentally
> figure out what you said on my own.? Got it!
Maybe that speaks to a need for an introductory page in GMF's wiki about basic navigation, illustrating the main areas and what to look for.
> Aren't ¡°User account¡±,?¡°subscriber account¡±?and?¡°member account¡± the
> same, as opposed to?¡°group/owner account¡±?
I used "User account" as a generic - regardless of what role that user might have in any given group, or even whether that user (email address) has any group subscriptions at all.
It is possible for a person to use the Sign Up link and create an account for him/herself before joining (subscribing to) any groups. Seen in the upper right corner if you are not currently logged in:
In this sense an account is just an account. There is no distinction among accounts based on what role that account might have in any given group. Your email address (account) may be subscribed to any number of groups, and have various Roles in those groups.
An owner (or moderator) of a group is also a member of the group. In some contexts it makes sense to distinguish between a member who has no elevated Role in the group, and one who is has the role of Moderator or Owner. But we don't have a separate term for the role of Member, qua Member, so people sometimes say non-Owner/Mod or other circumlocutions for that Role specifically.
> It seems to me that everyone in the world is a?¡°?future member
> without a Group.io account¡± until they set one up.
Or until the system sets one up for them.
This is an aspect of Groups.io that sometimes bends peoples minds, but it is well to understand it. Any time an email address subscribes to a group, no matter how that comes about, the system will set up an account for that address if it does not already have one. It is not possible to be a subscriber to a group without an account -- though it is quite possible for a subscriber not to have logged in to their account (yet).
> Perhaps this provision serves those groups with membership
> ¡°qualifications" that must be met before one can?¡°join¡±?
It serves all types of groups. The controls in the Default Sub Settings tab of a group's Settings page apply to the new member's Subscription at the moment an address first subscribes to the group.
Most of them anyway. There are three special ones, Timezone, Time Display, and Date Display that say "Only set for new users". These apply to the newly (automatically) created Account for those user addresses which didn't already have an account.
Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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One last word on this.
In my case, I ignored the long-ago advice of my techie son to always look around and try everything on a new site. I am very non-techie, and a woman of a certain age, and I just didn't realize that my "name tab" (as I thought of it) might have a purpose.
Thanks to Shal and his patient instructions, I found just what I needed to.
So many thanks to him and to all of you wonderful people here who take the time and give their expertise to make life easier for others. I only hope for you all that should you ever need help of any kind, there's someone there to offer it to you. You deserve it.
Sandy
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Hi Shal,
Same as before: ?comments below in bold and ¡°< >¡± for clarity of reference.
WRB
On Jan 4, 2020, at 11:17 PM, Shal Farley < shals2nd@...> wrote:
WRB,
> In Sandy's case (and mine), we didn¡¯t understand that the word
> ¡°Account¡± as used by Frances was an unintended ¡°code word¡± for
> whatever we had named our ¡°Account¡±.
We're a bit into the weeds now, but yes there was an unspoken assumption that readers would see that their name/address in the upper right corner is a menu, and that Account would be an item in the menu. One of the myriad places where a screen shot is worth a thousand word
<OK, but one doesn¡¯t have the benefit of a screen shot when looking for their?¡°Account¡±, particularly if they are new to group ownership. ?Everyone is a newbie once. ?It would be instantly obvious if it were?¡°Account: ?followed by (unique identifier chosen)>
> As I said ¡°there was confusion" (on my part).? I was able to mentally
> figure out what you said on my own.? Got it!
Maybe that speaks to a need for an introductory page in GMF's wiki about basic navigation, illustrating the main areas and what to look for.
<Count me in 10% for that. ?I¡¯d even help to such extent as time permits.>
> Aren't ¡°User account¡±,?¡°subscriber account¡±?and?¡°member account¡± the
> same, as opposed to?¡°group/owner account¡±?
I used "User account" as a generic - regardless of what role that user might have in any given group, or even whether that user (email address) has any group subscriptions at all.
<I think?¡°email address¡± would have been best?here. ?THEN the differences become self-evident with WHERE and HOW that is used (and for what?purpose).>
It is possible for a person to use the Sign Up link and create an account for him/herself before joining (subscribing to) any groups. Seen in the upper right corner if you are not currently logged in:
<nplghcpccljobcne.png>
In this sense an account is just an account. There is no distinction among accounts based on what role that account might have in any given group. Your email address (account) may be subscribed to any number of groups, and have various Roles in those groups.
<OK, I can see the amazing flexibility this creates, but the dark side is the inseparable complexity. ?Ability without purpose or structure is useless.>
An owner (or moderator) of a group is also a member of the group. In some contexts it makes sense to distinguish between a member who has no elevated Role in the group, and one who is has the role of Moderator or Owner. But we don't have a separate term for the role of Member, qua Member, so people sometimes say non-Owner/Mod or other circumlocutions for that Role specifically.
<How about Subscriber, Moderator and Owner? ?Thus, titles would be used only when some purpose is served.>
> It seems to me that everyone in the world is a?¡°?future member
> without a account¡± until they set one up.
Or until the system sets one up for them.
<Well, duh! ?Never thought of that. ?What is coming across to me more than?anything else is that there is a ¡°management presumption¡± that everyone wants (and gets) the keys to every vehicle in the Army, Navy and Air Force upon enlistment. ?Wow! ?Where would you start? ?
I¡¯ve had a Mac since 1985, worked for consulting engineers?on large commercial projects,?and as a Project Manager. ?I have founded and administered a small business (later sold successfully) without ever employing an accountant. ?I've created databases in Helix, the most complex combining a list of current owners and another with everything known about every airframe (between 5,000 and 6,000) of a particular aircraft ever manufactured (and some with serial numbers that weren¡¯t). ?
I¡¯ve been on the internet and in groups since 2002, and run two of approximately 1,000 members for 6+ years; so this "ain¡¯t my first rodeo¡±. ?Nonetheless, I was just as confused over the?¡°account¡± discussed herein as Sandy was.
Yes, some of those new to? need a LOT more help with navigating the site. ?Think of that level of help as?¡°learning to crawl¡±. ?But most of your helpers are more like sprinters or marathon runners in terms of technical experience and abilities. ?
The perception and communication?level of those needing help and those providing it are completely different and it takes mutual effort to make it effective. ?Exchanges are most efficient and informative when user?¡°needs¡± and?¡°solutions¡± can be reduced to terms clear to both helper and those helped
Initially I only sought here what I?¡°needed to know¡± to get my group functioning basically the way it did on Yahoo. ?I would compare my experience to trying to drink water from a fire hose! ?
This is an aspect of that sometimes bends peoples minds, but it is well to understand it. Any time an email address subscribes to a group, no matter how that comes about, the system will set up an account for that address if it does not already have one. It is not possible to be a subscriber to a group without an account -- though it is quite possible for a subscriber not to have logged in to their account (yet).
> Perhaps this provision serves those groups with membership
> ¡°qualifications" that must be met before one can?¡°join¡±?
It serves all types of groups. The controls in the Default Sub Settings tab of a group's Settings page apply to the new member's Subscription at the moment an address first subscribes to the group.
Most of them anyway. There are three special ones, Timezone, Time Display, and Date Display that say "Only set for new users". These apply to the newly (automatically) created Account for those user addresses which didn't already have an account.
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WRB, Everyone is a newbie once. It would be instantly obvious if it
were ¡°Account: followed by (unique identifier chosen) Perhaps. But my purpose in this topic was to help you and other readers to understand and use Groups.io as it is. The (belated) screen shots were only a means to that end. If you want to discuss possible improvements to site navigation perhaps you should start a new topic for that to make it clear to readers that it contains suggested site improvements rather than "how to" information. BTW, although suggestions discussed in GMF won't be seen by Groups.io, I've no problem with discussing them here to "hone" them before posting them in beta. As long as the topic is clearly identified as such. Shal GMF Moderator -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Shal Farley
Frances