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Group for blind managers

Alan Robbins
 

开云体育

Hello,

?

Being new to Groups IO and the GMF forum over the last couple of months, I have become aware of at least 3 other blind group owners in addition to myself. Since this brings some unique issues not encountered by sighted owners, I am curious whether there is a blind group managers forum (BGMF) in existence? If so, what is the link to join? If not, do other blind group owners feel this would be a good idea to create? Although much of the advice and direction disseminated by the GMF forum, many of the ways we access options with a screen reader are very different from directions offered by sighted group managers. Thoughts?

?

Best,

Al
 

开云体育

Hello Allen.

I am also a blind group owner of 3 groups on here and I also know of other blind owners and I think it would be a good

Idea.

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Alan Robbins via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 8:10 AM
To: GroupManagersForum <[email protected]>
Subject: [GMF] Group for blind managers

?

Hello,

?

Being new to Groups IO and the GMF forum over the last couple of months, I have become aware of at least 3 other blind group owners in addition to myself. Since this brings some unique issues not encountered by sighted owners, I am curious whether there is a blind group managers forum (BGMF) in existence? If so, what is the link to join? If not, do other blind group owners feel this would be a good idea to create? Although much of the advice and direction disseminated by the GMF forum, many of the ways we access options with a screen reader are very different from directions offered by sighted group managers. Thoughts?

?

Best,

Al
 

开云体育

Hi,

As a blind owner myself, I understand the need for such a separate forum. However, given that it is possible to translate what sighted folks say to screen reading terms, I would vote that we unite our discussions on this group.

?

There are other benefits of using this group and translating what is “shown on screen” to what “we can hear”:

  1. Educational: one way to educate the public (at least a limited audience) is translating what folks say to our own terms, and let others see how we use assistive technologies to manage groups on Groups.IO. Also, by learning practices from sighted owners in regards to leadership and terminology, blind owners too can learn how we can interact with sighted peers not only on Groups.IO, but also on other forum management spaces.
  2. Mutual understanding: from my experiences and if I read stories from other owners correctly, it doesn’t matter what kind of disability you have as long as you understand your responsibility as a group owner. One good analogy I can offer in this regard is how some political thoughts can transcend disability. Same way here: the ultimate qualification of being an effective leader of a group (or groups) is knowing who you are and how to take care of groups using whatever technology one is using, and this can be furthered by talking to other owners and establishing mutual understanding.

?

To those who have recently become owners of groups and don’t know what a screen reader is: a screen reader is a software product that uses various techniques to read contents of a computer screen to blind computer users. These may involve using services offered by operating systems such as Microsoft Windows, or using standards developed by various organizations as guidance for reading and helping users interact with web services (the latter is the predominant case for Groups.IO website).

?

I believe some members of this forum are screen reader experts (I am an actual screen reader developer and a Windows Insider, so I can give you pointers on technical matters), so don’t hesitate to contact us if you are interested in learning more about this.

Cheers,

Joseph

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Alan Robbins via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 5:10 AM
To: GroupManagersForum <[email protected]>
Subject: [GMF] Group for blind managers

?

Hello,

?

Being new to Groups IO and the GMF forum over the last couple of months, I have become aware of at least 3 other blind group owners in addition to myself. Since this brings some unique issues not encountered by sighted owners, I am curious whether there is a blind group managers forum (BGMF) in existence? If so, what is the link to join? If not, do other blind group owners feel this would be a good idea to create? Although much of the advice and direction disseminated by the GMF forum, many of the ways we access options with a screen reader are very different from directions offered by sighted group managers. Thoughts?

?

Best,

Al
Alan Robbins
 

Joseph,

?

As always, you bring up some very good points. Lets see what some others that may chime in have to say. Thanks for the post.

?

Al

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Group for blind managers

?

Hi,

As a blind owner myself, I understand the need for such a separate forum. However, given that it is possible to translate what sighted folks say to screen reading terms, I would vote that we unite our discussions on this group.

?

There are other benefits of using this group and translating what is “shown on screen” to what “we can hear”:

  1. Educational: one way to educate the public (at least a limited audience) is translating what folks say to our own terms, and let others see how we use assistive technologies to manage groups on Groups.IO. Also, by learning practices from sighted owners in regards to leadership and terminology, blind owners too can learn how we can interact with sighted peers not only on Groups.IO, but also on other forum management spaces.
  2. Mutual understanding: from my experiences and if I read stories from other owners correctly, it doesn’t matter what kind of disability you have as long as you understand your responsibility as a group owner. One good analogy I can offer in this regard is how some political thoughts can transcend disability. Same way here: the ultimate qualification of being an effective leader of a group (or groups) is knowing who you are and how to take care of groups using whatever technology one is using, and this can be furthered by talking to other owners and establishing mutual understanding.

?

To those who have recently become owners of groups and don’t know what a screen reader is: a screen reader is a software product that uses various techniques to read contents of a computer screen to blind computer users. These may involve using services offered by operating systems such as Microsoft Windows, or using standards developed by various organizations as guidance for reading and helping users interact with web services (the latter is the predominant case for Groups.IO website).

?

I believe some members of this forum are screen reader experts (I am an actual screen reader developer and a Windows Insider, so I can give you pointers on technical matters), so don’t hesitate to contact us if you are interested in learning more about this.

Cheers,

Joseph



[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
 

Al, Joseph, andy,

Lets see what some others that may chime in have to say.

I don't know how well screen readers cope with subject hashtags, but you could establish the hashtag #blind for topics that particularly relate to blind readers of GMF. That would make them easy to find through the Hashtags page, yet remain within GMF for the reasons Joseph cited.

If you want me to apply that hashtag (or some other) to this topic or past topics let me know in this thread or off-list. If there are other ways GMF can support your mission (Wiki pages?) let me know.

Shal
GMF Owner


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Joseph Hudson
 

Alan, I think it is a good idea. If nobody else besides Joseph is against it, I will definitely create though group and post subscription info here for those that choose to come over.

On Aug 15, 2018, at 7:09 AM, Alan Robbins via Groups.Io <alan1057@...> wrote:

Hello,

Being new to Groups IO and the GMF forum over the last couple of months, I have become aware of at least 3 other blind group owners in addition to myself. Since this brings some unique issues not encountered by sighted owners, I am curious whether there is a blind group managers forum (BGMF) in existence? If so, what is the link to join? If not, do other blind group owners feel this would be a good idea to create? Although much of the advice and direction disseminated by the GMF forum, many of the ways we access options with a screen reader are very different from directions offered by sighted group managers. Thoughts?

Best,
Al
 

Hi,
In the short term, it may work; but in the long term, I can see it leading
to more fragmentation. Thus I would like to strongly oppose this idea. Even
if a supposed group is created, I plan not to join.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf
Of Joseph Hudson
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 12:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Group for blind managers

Alan, I think it is a good idea. If nobody else besides Joseph is against
it, I will definitely create though group and post subscription info here
for those that choose to come over.


[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
 

Hello, I tend to agree with Joseph Lee on this point and here is the reason why. If there would be two separate groups there would be fragmentism with in the groups and the one wouldn't know what was happening in the other group hence there would be more clutter with getting emails from both groups.
The way it is now we can all work together for the good of all and we will all keep up with what is happening and we can have a blended group and everything can move along more smoothly and we can help
Those who are not screen reader users understand that we are not out to sow discord among the members but we wish both sides to understand what the other side needs to maintain stability.
I hope everyone understands what I am saying
Here.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 3:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Group for blind managers

Hi,
In the short term, it may work; but in the long term, I can see it leading to more fragmentation. Thus I would like to strongly oppose this idea. Even if a supposed group is created, I plan not to join.
Cheers,
Joseph


[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
Joseph Hudson
 

Andy, while I I see where you and Joseph are coming from. And I'm I'm with Joseph's decision. I believe that for those of us that you screen readers not mean particularly, but for those that do that find it hard to fall the GMF group, would benefit from having a blindness related manager's forum. Going back to Shell's comment, about making a hashtag for the so-called reason. I find it that most blind people don't use hashtags in their mail. There are a lot of us that do nothing but just read them via email and they don't fall the web. So what I suggest that we do here, would either leave it as it is as you've already stated, or we can split it out and then if there is a message of importance in the regular GMF group, we could make sure that that gets sent over to the blind GMF Group as well if we do make a safer group. I would make it my duty to make sure that happened. If anybody else's mind changes. But is the way I'm seeing now is that we should just keep it as one group.


On Aug 15, 2018, at 3:31 PM, andy t <andyt8898@...> wrote:

Hello, I tend to agree with Joseph Lee on this point and here is the reason why. If there would be two separate groups there would be fragmentism with in the groups and the one wouldn't know what was happening in the other group hence there would be more clutter with getting emails from both groups.
The way it is now we can all work together for the good of all and we will all keep up with what is happening and we can have a blended group and everything can move along more smoothly and we can help
Those who are not screen reader users understand that we are not out to sow discord among the members but we wish both sides to understand what the other side needs to maintain stability.
I hope everyone understands what I am saying
Here.

[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
Alan Robbins
 

Thanks to all the blind input. After reading everyone's opinion, lets take the road of keeping all just as is presently and use the #blind hashtags if necessary.

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joseph Hudson
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 5:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Group for blind managers

Andy, while I I see where you and Joseph are coming from. And I'm I'm with Joseph's decision. I believe that for those of us that you screen readers not mean particularly, but for those that do that find it hard to fall the GMF group, would benefit from having a blindness related manager's forum. Going back to Shell's comment, about making a hashtag for the so-called reason. I find it that most blind people don't use hashtags in their mail. There are a lot of us that do nothing but just read them via email and they don't fall the web. So what I suggest that we do here, would either leave it as it is as you've already stated, or we can split it out and then if there is a message of importance in the regular GMF group, we could make sure that that gets sent over to the blind GMF Group as well if we do make a safer group. I would make it my duty to make sure that happened. If anybody else's mind changes. But is the way I'm seeing now is that we should just keep it as one group.


[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
 

I am not blind myself, but I have worked on accommodating applications to blind users. I found that making everyone, sighted and blind, aware of blind issues was helpful to all. I think many sighted moderators have blind or sight-impaired members or expect to have such members someday and want to hear about sight issues. In my case, I think I may have sight-impaired members, but I am not sure. Therefore, combining sighted and blind moderator's forums is a simplification.
Best, Marv
 

?Hey guys. I’ve been reading all of these responses to this topic, and I am blind myself. I don’t think that having a separate group for blind managers would be a good idea, ?simply because it would not be practical and may cause a lot of confusion. I think this group is very helpful, I don’t see a reason for a separate one for blind or visually impaired people.
Thanks.
From Michael. ??
?
[ad trimmed by moderator]
?

From: 20355113120n behalf of
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 09:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Group for blind managers
?
I am not blind myself, but I have worked on accommodating applications to blind users. I found that making everyone, sighted and blind, aware of blind issues was helpful to all. I think many sighted moderators have blind or sight-impaired members or expect to have such members someday and want to hear about sight issues. In my case, I think I may have sight-impaired members, but I am not sure. Therefore, combining sighted and blind moderator's forums is a simplification.
Best, Marv
 

On 2018-08-16 9:52 p.m., Marv Waschke wrote:
Therefore, combining sighted and blind moderator's forums is a simplification.
Maybe. Maybe not.

A person that doesn't use a screen reader, doesn't need to know how to
skip the first 500+ words on a page, each time they approve/reject a
message.

For a person that uses a screen reader, knowing how to do so, can save
five or more minutes, per message to be approved/rejected.

A group that dealt with the issues of using a11y tools on the Groups.IO
site might be useful. Not just blind list managers, but MS suffers, for
example. (This group tends to use joysticks for data input.)

If one is going to go the hashtag route, then hashtags for the name of
the screen reader are needed. (#Jaws, #WindowEyes, #Orca, #NVDIA, etc.)
Additionally:
* #Perkins - Perkings Keyboard;
* #Joystick - Joystick used for input;
* #BrailleDisplay --- Braille Display Monitor;

Maybe hashtags for the specific virtual keyboards, and/or mouse
emulation software and/or voice input software would also be useful.

###

I can see it now. A message with hashtags #Dragon #JAWS #Blind, but no
hashtag for the specific problem.

jonathon

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