On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:45 AM, Maureen wrote:

Any recommendations??

Hi Maureen,

a recent change on Groups.io now allows you to upload links to files on other cloud storage platforms such as Dropbox and OneDrive etc.? Check out the options on the +New button in the files section of your group and maybe one of these will give you an alternative to YouTube.

The manual may also provide additional information: /helpcenter/membersmanual/1/working-with-files/uploading-files-and-folders

Andy

Isis . . .

(see below)

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 19:18:27 -0700, "isis feral via groups.io"
<isisferal@...> wrote:

We have no control over what our email providers do. Almost every big email provider is on the list of providers where this can happen, except Gmail, so I guess lots of people might just decide to go with the evil Google to prevent this from happening.

This started happening a few years ago when email service providers
decided for us (without asking us) that to protect us from being stuck
as a member in a group and continuing getting undesired posts from
forums, that if we marked messages from those forums as spam they
would force the forums to either unsubscribe the member or blacklist
the forum platform. I agree that it's not a good setup but we're stuck
with it. It's easy enough to unsubscribe from a group from most
platforms by clicking on a link at the end of the email you receive,
so that scheme isn't really needed. But it's there and we have to deal
with it.

Spam filters are not uncontroversial in general. Personally I believe that we are entitled to receive all of our email, including spam, and to make decisions ourselves about what's spam and what isn't. But most email providers force spam folders on us.

Spectrum (Roadrunner email) has a setup that they give you 5 free
email addresses. They don't tell you that there even is a spam folder.
It's only accessible online on their web site.

I discovered this when I knew I should be getting certain emails from
companies and I wasn't seeing them. I contacted Time Warner (now
Spectrum) and learned about the spam folder, and lo and behold, there
were some of those emails (the ones that weren't deleted after 30
days). I was told I could choose a setting that I could have all
suspected spam to my inbox but label the suspected messages with
"SPAM:" at the beginning of the subject line. I think I also had the
option to just have it send all messages to my inbox, effectively
turning off the spam folder. I would rather make the decision whether
a certain message is spam or not since spam filters are notorious for
false positives, and if you don't even see the spam folder (like it
was in my case), you will lose messages you should have received.

So now Groups.io is forcing anyone this happens to to interact with this folder all the time to be allowed to receive Groups.io mail, and to do so in a short period of time that is not realistic for everyone.

The blame goes to the email services/providers, not GIO. GIO has to
obey or be blacklisted. The email services are the ones who sent out
the order to unsubscribe the member, so it's unfair to blame GIO for
this setup. I don't like it any more than you do but we're stuck with
it.

One bad thing is that some email interfaces make it too easy to delete
a message as spam by mistake. I am told by some of the members in my
groups that the Yahoo Mail phone app has the buttons very close
together and some claimed that was what happened to them.

And now as moderator, I'm going to have to follow up with the member who this happened to, for no fault of their own, and no fault of my own. More work, more hassle, and why - because we are being held accountable for what various corporate entities that provide us with our email accounts are doing.

You can choose to not follow through and trust the resubscribe link to
do its job when it's sent out with a brief explanation. Or you can
send a personal note with an explanation to the member if you want to.
You can also train your members (posting an explanation) to not delete
posts as spam, to check their spam folders, and what to do if they or
their email provider unsubscribes them by deleting a message as spam
or a message in the spam folder. But expect a discussion on the
subject and you'll have to deal with the lack of knowledge many
members have when they blame the forum providers instead of the real
culprits, the email providers who started this thing a few years back.
I had a monthly reminder in all my groups. In one high activity group
it was impossible to teach some that it wasn't the fault of GIO.

I'm extremely disappointed with Groups.io. I'm not going to move my groups elsewhere, but neither am I going to recommend others come here. I know there's nothing anyone here can do about it. I'm just venting, and hope that maybe Mark, or someone who communicates with Mark on a regular basis, takes notice that this is causing problems for some of us.

This isn't something Mark can do anything about, for the reason
mentioned above. The onus is on the email providers, and since they
started this, I doubt that they will reverse course. They think they
know you better than you do and that you need to be protected from
yourself. They know best, or they think they do.

I don't know how many email providers don't have this system in place
but I know Yahoo does. The best advice to give your members if you
choose to start a discussion on this topic in your group is to not
delete any desired email in the spam folder, to not mark a desired
message as spam in their inbox, to check their spam folder regularly,
and train the spam folder (mark a desired message as not spam) to
allow messages from GIO (they might call that whitelisting in their
email service setup).

You will probably see this sort of thing on other forums as time goes
on, as email providers start implementing this scheme for the smaller
forum platforms over time.

So while there's nothing we can do to get rid of this scheme, there
are things group members can do to not get caught in this trap. Some
may not be teachable or may have difficulty understanding this, and
other than reaching out personally to help them, there's not much else
you can do for those who can't learn.

Hopefully you won't have a member do this (or his/her email service
doing it automatically) very often. I had a few, though, who did it
repeatedly, two or three times in a row close together, until they
figured out what they were doing. But those are the exceptions. I
don't usually follow up anymore and almost all who are caught in that
trap click on the resubscribe link sent out by GIO from a different
address.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:20 PM, isis feral wrote:

I'm extremely disappointed with Groups.io. I'm not going to move my groups elsewhere, but neither am I going to recommend others come here.

Isis -- Groups.io sends a lot of emails, and is registered with a "foreign" top-level domain. Thus, it already has two strikes against it, as far as the spam algorithms are concerned. Honoring email provider's feedback loop requests is the price groups.io has to pay to avoid getting that third strike.

Looking at your posting history, you've had at least one group since in April of 2019. I think writing off groups.io over something that has happened to you once in 15 months is a bit of an overreaction. An occasional hiccup of this nature is a small price to pay for access to an otherwise stable platform, run by someone who actually cares and responds to his clients. That's my opinion, anyway.

Regards,
Bruce

---

Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Thanks, Duane.

I wish I had known about this before I brought my groups here. Honestly, I would have gone elsewhere.

We have no control over what our email providers do. Almost every big email provider is on the list of providers where this can happen, except Gmail, so I guess lots of people might just decide to go with the evil Google to prevent this from happening. Not a good trajectory.

Spam filters are not uncontroversial in general. Personally I believe that we are entitled to receive all of our email, including spam, and to make decisions ourselves about what's spam and what isn't. But most email providers force spam folders on us.

So now Groups.io is forcing anyone this happens to to interact with this folder all the time to be allowed to receive Groups.io mail, and to do so in a short period of time that is not realistic for everyone. I don't think it's okay to expect users to monitor their emails in specific time frames. Some of the members in my groups are disabled, and some are homeless, and they don't go online every day or every week, and if they do, they focus on urgent emails (like from their community groups!) rather than some bureaucratic mailing, so they may well miss the limited time offer to be added back to the group.

And now as moderator, I'm going to have to follow up with the member who this happened to, for no fault of their own, and no fault of my own. More work, more hassle, and why - because we are being held accountable for what various corporate entities that provide us with our email accounts are doing.

I'm extremely disappointed with Groups.io. I'm not going to move my groups elsewhere, but neither am I going to recommend others come here. I know there's nothing anyone here can do about it. I'm just venting, and hope that maybe Mark, or someone who communicates with Mark on a regular basis, takes notice that this is causing problems for some of us.

Thanks for explaining what's going on, Duane.

Isis

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 07:41 PM, isis feral wrote:

Is this some new policy?

No, it's been this way for a long time, at least 4 years.? There have been many discussions about it on this group.? You can read the official Help information at /helpcenter/faq/1/group-member-faq/q-i-got-a-message-that-i

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 07:03 PM, Monica Utsey wrote:

I don¡¯t read code or whatever it is so there was no way for me to know this

In general, if the code is 2.x.x, the email was accepted by the email service for delivery to the intended email address.? For a 4.x.x code, the service temporarily won't accept it, but GIO will try again later for these (and keep trying if 4.x.x is returned again.)? For 5.x.x, the email service has refused to accept the email for some reason and GIO won't send it again.

Those are SMTP codes that all email services use when communicating with each other, such as GIO to msn (messages to you) or msn to GIO (messages from you).? Good information at ? Various services use slightly different English language definitions for some of the codes, but they mean the same thing.

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

?Shal Farley wrote: This is kind of an odd theory, and I've not tested it, but the only difference I'm seeing between what does not display right in GMF, and what does in shalstest, is the file name. In particular, the one in GMF included an en-dash character.
=====================================================================================================

It's funny, but I had the same thought. When I have time tomorrow I'll test it. I think you might be right.

tommy0421

tommy0421,

Shal I am going to copy the images from the member's original source
... Then post to shalstest. I'm wondering if I start from scratch if
that might work?

Amusingly, it did. More below.

When I report this in Beta should I send the image or just the error
code?

In beta you should post a link to example messages in your group(s), and/or the one in GMF. That will let Mark see the effect for himself and examine the message and its headers for clues.

-----

This is kind of an odd theory, and I've not tested it, but the only difference I'm seeing between what does not display right in GMF, and what does in shalstest, is the file name.

In particular, the one in GMF included an en-dash character.

From the view source of your message at GMF, the image file header says:

Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS ¨C SUNDAY, 18 March

1917.jpg"

Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS ¨C SUNDAY,

18 March 1917.jpg"

That character after "TEXAS" is not an ordinary hyphen. It is an en-dash character and in the filename text was represented in UTF-8 as the sequence ?€¡° (0xE2 80 93) - the Unicode code point 0x2013, which displays as an en-dash.

I'm not sure what the email standard says about using UTF-8 encoding in header fields, but the standard has been evolving to allow UTF-8 in more places. Maybe whatever code is in Groups.io's message display processing isn't handling UTF-8 encoding correctly, causing it to fail when attempting to access the image.

So if you're up for further tests, try ensuring that the file names do not contain any "fancy" punctuation -- nothing outside of the "plain" ASCII punctuation marks.

That can be a little tricky when copying things from (especially Word) documents, as documents tend to use "fancy" characters ¡ª like em-dash, en-dash, and left and right ¡°quotation¡± marks; often automatically converting "plain" marks to "fancy" as you type.

Shal


--
Help: /helpcenter
More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 04:41 PM, Monica Utsey wrote:

Response: . . . Queued mail for delivery -> 250 2.1.5

Sorry, Monica. I hadn't seen this response detail, or Duane's helpful suggestion related to it, before I sent you my question about the Email Delivery setting (Individual Messages) on your owner account. I know that you have checked your Spam folder repeatedly, but I wonder if there might be more than one Spam folder, for example on the msn.com server rather than in your Outlook interface. You may want to bring that up in your next go-round with the Microsoft support.

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 04:25 PM, Monica Utsey wrote:

Perhaps you have not seen my replies.? Every single suggestion that this group has offered, I tried.

?

1. Every message that I send from motherjegna@... is posting to the group.? So yes, it is a part of the message archive.
2. Yes, my settings are to receive a copy of all emails
3. Yes, my settings are to receive all messages from the group
4. Yes, my messages are unmoderated

Monica,

One thing that you haven't explicitly reported is whether your owner account Subscription (the item below Home on the left-side menu) has Email Delivery set to Individual Emails.? That setting is at the top of the Subscription settings and is different from the Owner Email setting for All Emails at the bottom of the Subscription settings.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:41 PM, Monica Utsey wrote:

2.6.0 <MN2PR11MB3903215F19ED947504E66B31BD4C0@...> [InternalId=31842887559986, Hostname=MW2NAM10HT206.eop-nam10.prod.protection.outlook.com] 1894713 bytes in 0.764, 2419.668 KB/sec Queued mail for delivery -> 250 2.1.5

That says the message was delivered to msn for your email account.? What they did with it is unknown.? Your problem is NOT with GIO.

See

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:25 PM, Annie Green wrote:

can I print our database

Not easily.? See /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/15279 for how to export it to your computer for printing.

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:25 PM, Monica Utsey wrote:

But, no, I am not receiving a copy of the email in my email in box.

You've repeatedly skipped over a very important suggestion - your email delivery history.? Go online, go to the group, select Subscription from the menu, click the Email Delivery History button.? There are 3 panels on that page - Most Recent Successful Delivery, Most Recent Unsuccessful Attempt, and Recent Bounces.? Report what each of those says.? If you could check that page right after sending a message from the email account in question, it should give the most useful information.

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:

"Have you checked: I always want copies of my own emails in the page
/account?page=prefs "

That box only applies to gmail accounts (or services that use gmail for email) as far as I know.? That's what it was originally set up for anyway.? Monica is using msn.

Duane
--
The official Groups.io user documentation is in the Groups.io Help Center.
GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

can I print our database

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Duane . . .

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 15:51:08 -0700, "Duane" <txpigeon@...>
wrote:

You really need to go to the group to check your email delivery history, your subscription settings, and anything else that has to do with messages.

This might have been overlooked--Barbara's suggestion:

"Have you checked: I always want copies of my own emails in the page
/account?page=prefs "

----------

There's a place in your GIO account settings to disable or enable
having emails you send to the group coming back to you. If you don't
want that, uncheck that box. If you want that, then check that box.

It's at the very bottom of the Display Preferences section in your GIO
account and it could very well be the reason why she's not seeing her
own emails from one account and seeing them from the other.

If you have more than one account, I don't know which account that
link takes you to. But if you log in manually to GIO and go to your
account settings, then display properties, check that setting. If
that's set so you get copies of all your messages, then the only thing
left is one of your MSN accounts has something turned on or off that
prevents getting your own emails. One account might have it set one
way and the other the opposite way.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP