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Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi

Finally found where I could see the owners¡¯ email address - on the home page of each of my groups.
For example, for this group, go to?
and scroll down to the bottom of the page where all the email addresses for the group are listed.

Also, I found it hard to find the control you mentioned, Shal. (I have mine set already though!) As you said, it is in Subscription page for each group you belong to - after going to Subscription, click on Advanced Preferences (near the bottom of the page). It opens up a new menu and at the bottom are the controls for Owner Email.?
Somehow I would have thought it would be in Settings. I guess this makes sense since it is about your own participation?

Frances



On Jan 27 17, at 3:13 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Barb,

> I'm testing the email to [email protected] and to
> [email protected]. Neither one comes through to my
> gmail account. What am I missing?

Unlike Yahoo Groups, in each moderator has a subscription option to control receiving messages sent to the owner address.

It is possible that you have yours set to "None" or (from) "Subscribers only". The control is at the bottom of the Subscription page in each group (of which you moderate or own).

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

Barb,

I'm testing the email to [email protected] and to
[email protected]. Neither one comes through to my
gmail account. What am I missing?
Unlike Yahoo Groups, in Groups.io each moderator has a subscription option to control receiving messages sent to the owner address.

It is possible that you have yours set to "None" or (from) "Subscribers only". The control is at the bottom of the Subscription page in each group (of which you moderate or own).

Shal
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

Lena,

I don't think so. I run my own mailserver. I subscribed to feedback
loops of a few large mailbox providers including (in March 2011)
mail.yahoo.com.
I stand corrected, thanks! I got the impression it was new from Mark's comments, but I guess that was just my misunderstanding.

So that does go back directly to Sharon's question: why not Yahoo Groups? Lacking inside knowledge I don't have an answer for whether they never implemented the list-side of the protocol, or whether they used the results to do something less severe than unsubscription.

Interesting.

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi

For our travel group and my family groups, the email addresses are different - [email protected]

And this group¡¯s email address is:

So perhaps yours is wrong? Just a guess!

Frances


On Jan 27 17, at 10:25 AM, Barb Suess <barbsuess@...> wrote:

Hi - little help?

I'm testing the email to?[email protected] and to?[email protected]. Neither one comes through to my gmail account. What am I missing?

Many thanks,

Barb
Email to group owner not coming through

 

Hi - little help?

I'm testing the email to?[email protected] and [email protected]. Neither one comes through to my gmail account. What am I missing?

Many thanks,

Barb
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:19 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

this "FBL" protocol invented by the email services is
relatively new - much newer than the "Neo" redesign of Yahoo Groups.
I don't think so.
I run my own mailserver. I subscribed to feedback loops of a few large mailbox providers including (in March 2011) mail.yahoo.com. In December 2011 I got yahooMail's feedback loop messages about my messages to a Mailman list. I sent those messages to the exim-users @ exim.org list, a member used yahooMail. perhaps it placed my messages to the Spam folder, the member had read my messages and deleted them from the Spam folder (didn't press NotSpam), I got feedback loop messages because my messages had my domain in "From:" header line (though sent to yahooMail from the exim.org mailserver).
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

 

Phil,

We have started an attempt at this and it is public:

/g/LWIdeas/wiki
Very nice!

I hope to take inspiration from your work when I finally get a round tuit for moving a couple of my own groups from Yahoo to here.

Shal
Re: Non Confirmed Group Members #membership #suggestion

Jeff Powell
 

I found a way to accomplish it that wasn't too bad.

On each page of users, I right clicked on any in the NC state and opened their account info up in new tabs. ?Then I went through each of those and sent the confirmation email again and closed their tab. That let me keep my place in the list and know what I had and hand't handled. Not stellar, but it worked.

Only time will tell if any of those people actually confirm and participate or not.

--jeffp
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

Phillip Johnson
 

We have started an attempt at this and it is public:

/g/LWIdeas/wiki

Phil Johnson

2370
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

Sharon,

But there were never subscribers unsubscribed on Yahoo. My Yahoo list
was almost 3000 subscribers too.
As I've said, this "FBL" protocol invented by the email services is relatively new - much newer than the "Neo" redesign of Yahoo Groups. So my guess is that there's no one left at Yahoo to implement their side of it.

The "one-click" proposal, if and when adopted, is unlikely to be implemented at Y!Groups either - unless Y!Groups undergoes a revival.

Meanwhile the penalty for not participating in the FBL protocol appears to be that group messages get delayed or rejected ("bounced") with higher probability than they would if the email list is a "good citizen" (in the eyes of the email service).

Now that is one place where the size of the service (not necessarily the individual group) might make a difference. AOL and other email services might carve out policy exceptions for Google Groups, Y!Groups, and other well-known services.

On the other hand, reports of delays or missing messages seem to be endemic to Y!Groups. It could be that Y!Groups are in fact suffering from the email services' "penalty" for sending spam.

But as I think about it hasn¡¯t happened since shortly after I
transferred the list.
The situation may have improved. Or the members may have learned "don't do that" or may have switched email services.

But I¡¯m thinking of transferring other lists on which this would be a
problem. More important that people not miss messages.
In that case Groups.io is doing the right thing by attempting to maintain a good reputation in the eyes of the email services.

Or put the other way: better that the members learn "don't do that", or choose a better email service, than have everyone suffer from sporadic message delay and loss.

Shal
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

On Jan 26, 2017, at 11:46 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 08:31 am, Shal Farley wrote:
I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly.
But there were never subscribers unsubscribed on Yahoo. My Yahoo list was almost 3000 subscribers too.

But as I think about it hasn¡¯t happened since shortly after I transferred the list. But I¡¯m thinking of transferring other lists on which this would be a problem. More important that people not miss messages.

I think there were some reports several months ago about it doing that to other services - making users explicitly log on to retrieve messages (rather than actually sending them), etc.
This is what AOL used to do. They refused to deliver messages one large list for mystery readers. AOL readers had to use a link to read them somewhere on the AOL site. (There was no other website.)

Sharon
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

 

Here's the link:

GroupManagersForum wiki

Frances
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

J_Catlady
 

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 08:31 am, Shal Farley wrote:
I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly.

I think there were some reports several months ago about it doing that to other services - making users explicitly log on to retrieve messages (rather than actually sending them), etc.

J?
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

J,

Our group "officially" tells members not to use an aol address for
Groups.io. Most of the aol members have created gmail accounts by
this point, but a couple of them continue to use aol. They're missing
messages (as can be seen from their email delivery logs) but they
don't seem to care.
According to what Mark said (much earlier), he suspects that refusing delivery of messages from a mailing list is AOL's way of "punishing" email list services that don't act upon FBL reports. That's why he resumed unsubscribing members in response to those reports.

The problem is that the AOLs refusal to deliver does not seem to be tied to a specific member or a specific group, but appears to arbitrarily affect all messages from Groups.io. It is as if the probability that a message will be refused is in some sense proportional to the "spammy-ness" reputation of the list service overall.

I don't know if the situation has improved, but Mark complained at the time that he was unable to get any guidance from AOL as to how they expect him to interpret and respond to the FBL reports, and what the consequences are if he does or doesn't.

Shal
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

Sharon,

The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we
have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must
have been some setting on her account.
I think part of the confusion may be that just having an AOL address doesn't tell us which user interface the person is using. For example, I'm using a gmail address here, but I'm not using Gmail's web interface. So a difference in behavior may be tied in part to a difference in how the person is accessing their email.

She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a
program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder.
She may not have had "a program" to do that, but email services will automatically place incoming messages into the Spam folder if their software determines that the message is likely to be spam.

So the question isn't really about whether she marked anything, but whether any group messages had been placed (by whatever means) into her spam folder. If so, they need to be explicitly marked by her as "not spam" in order to avoid the FBL (feedback loop) system, which leads to their unsubscription.

By the way, I'm not saying that this is how things should work, I'm saying that this is my understanding from what I've read. I don't use AOL so I don't have any first-hand experience with their user interfaces. If I had things my way only a user's explicit action to unsubscribe would cause an unsubscription.

I think this is a major negative for Groups.io.
I think it is a major negative for AOL, and any other email service that uses such a mechanism based on automatic spam detection.

If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of
the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops.
I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly. The question is whether the list service is cooperating with AOL (and other email services) in this matter. My guess is "no" for Yahoo Groups simply because they had stopped all development for Yahoo Groups before the feedback loop mechanism was created. I don't know what the situation is with Google groups or other list services.

It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which
messages I mark as spam.
Groups.io (or other list services) don't and can't do that on their own. Groups.io is responding to FBL messages from AOL (and other email services) which say, in effect, "this person marked a message from you as spam - take care of it".

I haven't read anything about it lately, but I still have hope that the "one-click" proposal will be adopted (by both email services and list services), replacing the FBL mechanism. Of course I'm hoping that email services like AOL implement one-click in such a way that its function is obvious to the user and requires an explicit action - avoiding the unintentional unsubscription problem introduced by the FBL mechanism.

Shal
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

J_Catlady
 

Our group "officially" tells members not to use an aol address for Groups.io. Most of the aol members have created gmail accounts by this point, but a couple of them continue to use aol. They're missing messages (as can be seen from their email delivery logs) but they don't seem to care.?

J

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 7:56 AM, Sharon Villines <sharon@...> wrote:
I had a member that was constantly getting unsubscribed by AOL. She would constantly resubscribe. One day I received 12 automatic emails from her account.

The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must have been some setting on her account. She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder.

I think this is a major negative for Groups.io. If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops.

It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which messages I mark as spam.

Sharon.

> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Xaun Loc <xaunloc@...> wrote:
>
> I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but...? if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Shal Farley
> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership
>
> Xaun, Lena,
>
>> Absolutely ban them!
>
> I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the
> opposite: to help those people remain members.
>
>> Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
>> message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
>> can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
>> destroy a group.
>
> In its way, it is worse than destroying the group.
>
> With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely
> affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it
> more likely that members of other groups using that service will find
> their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all.
>
> Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to
> push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User
> Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice
> (unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking
> about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help
> those members.
>
> Shal
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

I had a member that was constantly getting unsubscribed by AOL. She would constantly resubscribe. One day I received 12 automatic emails from her account.

The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must have been some setting on her account. She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder.

I think this is a major negative for Groups.io. If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops.

It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which messages I mark as spam.

Sharon.

On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Xaun Loc <xaunloc@...> wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but... if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out

-----Original Message----- From: Shal Farley
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership

Xaun, Lena,

Absolutely ban them!
I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the
opposite: to help those people remain members.

Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
destroy a group.
In its way, it is worse than destroying the group.

With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely
affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it
more likely that members of other groups using that service will find
their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all.

Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to
push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User
Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice
(unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking
about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help
those members.

Shal
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

 

Taffman,

I'm thinking of writing a Wiki page that introduced the new
functionality our users will experience that they didn't have in Yahoo.
Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone done this or any kind of user
guide that I can plagiarise?
That's one intent I have with GMF's Wiki - but haven't gotten around to writing too much. You're free to plagiarize / adapt what you find there.

As a GMF member you are even more welcome to add to it or improve it! If you write some introductory information for your groups please consider contributing a copy here.

Note: GMF's wiki is public, so:

a) Be careful what you put there (e.g. no email addresses or other personal information).

b) You may freely give out links to those pages: anyone can read them without being a GMF member.

Shal
Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

 

?I have just migrated our Yahoo Group to Groups.io and I must say it was a quick and painless migration, so quodos to the transfer team!

I'm thinking of writing a Wiki page that introduced the new functionality our users will experience that they didn't have in Yahoo. Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone done this or any kind of user guide that I can plagiarise?
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but... if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out

-----Original Message-----
From: Shal Farley
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership

Xaun, Lena,

Absolutely ban them!
I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the
opposite: to help those people remain members.

Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
destroy a group.
In its way, it is worse than destroying the group.

With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely
affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it
more likely that members of other groups using that service will find
their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all.

Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to
push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User
Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice
(unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking
about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help
those members.

Shal
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