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Duane,

You can choose the default for the calendar and also for your group.

Please be cautious in how you describe this.

A calendar does not have a timezone of its own, nor does a group.

Events have a Timezone (at which the event occurs) and members have a timezone (at which they see the event). That's really all there is to it.

The only place to set an event's timezone is in the Create/Edit for the event; in the case of a create the event takes on the member's timezone as a default.

The member's timezone may be set through the Preference page in the member's account, or by the convenient Timezone control below a calendar grid.

Shal


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Michael,

However, the Grioups.io calender function seems to randomly assign
timezones to events and changes the time, regardless of what I select
in the timezone in the event or in the default time zone in the
settings section.

Each member has a Timezone setting on the Preferences page of their account; that controls how they see events in the calendars of their groups; and the timezone of events they create.

When looking at a group's calendar there's a duplicate of that Timezone control below the calendar grid. This provides a convenient way for a member to change his/her account timezone preference without navigating away from the calendar page.

The timezone setting in the Default Sub Settings tab of your group's Settings page provides a default for someone new who joins your group and has never previously joined a Groups.io group or set his/her account's timezone setting. Same with Time and Date display format.

When a member creates an event, it is defaulted to the timezone the member is currently using. However the member can change the event's timezone when creating or editing it. Each event can have its own timezone.

When a member looks at an event in the calendar, the event's timezone is used to calculate when the event should appear in the member's timezone.

For example, if a member in New York creates an event for 5pm Eastern, a member in Los Angeles looking at that event in Pacific time will see it as 2pm - adjusted for the three hour timezone difference.

Is this a known problem or am I doing something stupid?

I don't know of any problems with Groups.io's calendar timezone handling, I think you expected the timezone on the Default Sub Settings tab to do something it doesn't.

Shal


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Dave,

One of our members reported that he had two gmail accounts registered
in Groups.io, and one of them (the one he relied on) suddenly
disappeared.

I'm uncertain what he may have meant by "disappeared".

Did he mean that he was logged out? The login cookie expires after a month, or when you log out, or if you delete cookies in your browser.

Other than by attempting to log in and failing, I'm not sure how one would know that one's account had disappeared (as opposed to a group membership).

He was able to go back in and reestablish the account, using the exact
same gmail address and password for it that he'd used in the past.

And when he did, was anything different? Was that account still a member of the groups it had been? Did it still have any changes to account preferences he may have made? Or was it actually new?

Is this something that happens?

I've been here since the launch of Groups.io, and I don't think I've heard of such a thing.

Shal


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Michael,

As such, all the explanations of why it would not work, are
essentially saying that responding to Bounce Probes do not work.

The key difference is that receiving the bounce probe demonstrates that the member's email address is receiving from Groups.io - that is the whole point.

If the member's email address cannot receive the bounce probe then there's no point in restoring message delivery - they will also bounce.

It is just an alternative to the 'Bounce Probe and response’ process -
especially for people who do not know what a SPAM or JUNK folder is,

If diversion to the Spam folder is a problem for the bounce probe, then it will likely be a problem for the group's messages as well. But diversion to Spam is a different problem, usually with a different cause, than message rejection.

Shal


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My suggestion was that a Subscriber/Member sending an email to [email protected] be equivalent to responding to a Bounce Probe. My intention was that it would only do whatever a Bounce Probe and response could do. It is just an alternative to the 'Bounce Probe and response’ process - especially for people who do not know what a SPAM or JUNK folder is, and/or who are not comfortable with accessing the web / website.

As such, all the explanations of why it would not work, are essentially saying that responding to Bounce Probes do not work. If Bounce Probes do not work..., never mind.

Received from Michael Pavan at 10/3/2018 06:45 PM UTC:

There is good explanation here -> /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Help-Mock-up#Bounce-Handling

Understood, interesting - but useless to Subscribers/Members if they never see, read, or understand them.

Useless due to never being seen only if members of this group - GROUP OWNERS - do nothing to make this info available to subscribers BEFORE (sometimes AFTER) they're bouncing. Reading is the responsibility of the member. Same for understanding or seeking someone to explain. I think it starts with Group Owners managing their groups by communicating with their members.

The member sending an email to groups.io would not do anything as groups.io cannot do anything about the member's email provider that is bouncing the emails.

It would resurrect an account from the "virtual limbo" and restart trying to deliver messages to the Subscriber/Member again.

That's an action for AFTER the member has taken action to resolve the cause of bouncing. There's no point to sending mail (including more than several bounce notices) from Gio to a mailbox that's refusing mail from Gio.

I see the GroupName+unbounce@... email address as having the exact same effect as responding to a Bounce Probe,

Not the same at all!

It's just something designed to let a member bypass the step involving correction of the root cause of the problem. It will just be a source of complaint when members who do nothing to correct the root cause send mail to GroupName+unbounce and it doesn't work because the real problem hasn't been cured. No solution for the member, more complaints to Group Owners, some of whom, not understanding the issue, will bring them here. That's just a big LOSE-LOSE for all.

The only problem with bounce probes is that until the bounce condition is fixed - via member action or via serendipity - a bounce probe won't be received. So Gio sends several probes in hopes that serendipity will intervene and let one of them thru, and that failing waits for the member to notice the problem and correct it.

How does the member know he has a problem and how to correct it? The Group Owners should either point their members to the info at the link above BEFORE problems arise, or AFTER members contact them. I'd probably provide members of a knitting group this info AFTER they report a problem. For a group about computer programming, probably BEFORE. It's a matter of who would likely take time to understand it BEFORE having a problem vs needing to be desperate before reading any of it. Just saying.

without the often insurmountable burden of the Subscriber/Member having to find the likely also mis-marked as a SPAM message Bounce Probe email, as it would be in a message from the Owner's private email address and likely would have been received in their Inbox.

It's not a substitute for finding that bounce probe message unless the root cause of the bouncing has been cured.

What you're proposing is an alternative approach that doesn't push the member to look for the bounce probe in his Junk folder where he could also see and mark other messages from Gio as NOT JUNK before responding to the bounce probe. That's NOT GOOD... because it results in that member's ISP reinforcing its notion that Gio is a source of junk/spam... and when those "spam/junk" messages are eventually deleted from the Junk folder rather than marked as NOT JUNK by the member, there's a fair chance a message will be sent automatically by the ISP to Gio notifying Gio the member has marked a message as spam... leading Gio to UNSUBSCRIBE the member. At that point you can forget minor stuff like bouncing because now he's unsubscribed from the group. And now he's twice as peeved and twice as hard to help or deal with in any manner.

Little problems turn into bigger ones when they aren't PROPERLY addressed by those responsible for addressing them. Gio knows what it's doing here... and they need to continue to do it at least until they're way "too big to block."

Plus if anyone, not necessarily that particular Subscriber/Member, had successfully interacted with that Email Provider to recognize Groups.io as NOT as SPAM ENGINE, such a Subscriber/Member would be all set. My thought is that most of us use Email Providers that other persons also use, meaning that not every client of every Email Provider that incorrectly labeled Groups.io as a SPAM ENGINE would have to educate every Email Provider.

That seems logical... until you understand that contact by "other persons" should solve a problem for others really says, "Someone else will handle it and others (my member) rides along for free." The big problem with that is that "someone else" is worn out - or is as incapable as your member - so it too often winds up that nobody handles it. Another problem is that as likely as not it COULD be only the bouncing member's email that is being blocked... because he really did mark a message as spam. People really do that. And in that case there isn't "someone else."

The only time I wouldn't lay 100% of the responsibility to resolve the bounce condition on the member is when the reason is due to a broader "policy decision" by the ISP - a decision to bounce ALL Gio email as a source of spam, or more likely a source of "too much email." That isn't likely to be resolved without direct contact between Gio and the ISP. And that cause will only be discovered by the member (or Group Owner) looking at the member's email activity record to see the reason for bouncing... and that may still require the member to call the ISP if the reason is an obscure AUP Code vs plain English... and depending on the code Gio may need to call the blocking ISP. That was the case back in I think August involving blocks by RoadRunner/Spectrum (my ISP) and AOL. I called Spectrum Tech Support, got the meaning of the AUP Code describing the reason for blocking, and Mark made the call. Blocking stopped.

All in all, bottom line as I see it is that there is no satisfactory solution for a member unwilling or unable to cooperate in solving his bouncing problems.

Jim H

Received from Duane at 10/3/2018 08:46 PM UTC:

When I create a poll, I almost always have an "other" choice because I know I won't have every option that could be used. A minor change, like an additional choice, doesn't have much effect.

The additional choice in the very real and actually tested example I gave doesn't have much effect?
(See /g/GroupManagersForum/message/12246 )

Looks like no point in continuing this discussion.

Luckily I'm not prevented from deleting a poll I need to change and starting over.

Jim H

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 05:38 PM, Patty Sliney wrote:

I'd prefer this policy be completely changed

Unless you can convince all the services that use FBL to get rid of it, there's not much else that can be done on the GIO end.

Duane
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Michael,

If I send them an email from my personal (non-Groups.io) email
address, can I do better than to:
... and say: -You are bouncing.

If they are "Bouncing" (blue B after their address) then Groups.io will be sending them periodic bounce probes. If and when one gets through and they respond to it they'll be automatically unbounced.

If they are "Bounced" (red B) then Groups.io has given up on sending bounce probes.

If your personal email gets through to them you can also suggest that they visit your group's pages on Groups.io. When they log in there they'll see a banner at the top of the page with instructions for unbouncing their address (account). However that will only work if they've solved whatever problem at their email service caused the bounces in the first place.

If their email is working now, the "Email me a link to log in" button on the site's Log In page is a quick and easy way for a member to log in (even one that has never been to the site before). But they do need to be able to promptly receive the message sent to them.

I would prefer to be able to tell them that, alternatively they can
send an email to: [email protected]

Is this an option?
If not, has it been suggested yet?

It isn't, and I don't recall that it has been suggested.

I suspect that if the idea is taken up Groups.io would send a bounce probe in response, rather than simply resuming group messages. There are a couple reasons for this, but the primary one is as Bruce mentioned: the bottom-line question is whether the member can /receive/, not whether they can send.

The member sending an email to groups.io would not do anything as
groups.io cannot do anything about the member's email provider that
is bouncing the emails.

It would resurrect an account from the ‘virtual limbo’ and restart
trying to deliver messages to the Subscriber/Member again.

The automatic bounce probes provide that function.

I see the GroupName+unbounce@... email address as ... without the
often insurmountable burden of the Subscriber/Member having to find
the likely also mis-marked as a SPAM message Bounce Probe email,

Messages marked as SPAM weren't bounced - that's a different subject entirely - any message delivered to the member's Spam folder must first have been accepted by the email service.

As to your concern that the Bounce probe will end up in the member's spam folder, that's something you can address in your off-list message to the member. For what it is worth, I suspect bounce probes are actually /less/ likely to be diverted to the member's Spam folder than group postings are.

Shal


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Bill,

I was wondering when the members of my Y group will get a notification
email to switch over if I initiate the transfer today?

They will get a "You've been added" message from Groups.io at the time their address is copied to your Groups.io group. Unless you uncheck the box Bruce mentioned.

At the same time they'll get a "Welcome" member notice from you (your group) if there is one Active in the Member Notices tab of your group's Settings page. Uncheck the Active box for that message if you don't want that sent.

The member does not have to take any action on their own, except possibly to update their address book and/or bookmarks.

I would rather them receive an email from me rather than groups first
but don’t want to delay.

I concur with Jim that they should hear about it from you in advance, via a Special Notice in your Yahoo Group. That way you could tell them to expect the system message and your Welcome notice.

Here's an example that I sent to one of my Yahoo Groups:
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Advance-Special-Notice-for-Yahoo-Group-transfer

See also the matching Welcome notice:
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Welcome-Message-for-Yahoo-Group-transfer

Shal


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On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 04:36 PM, Michael Pavan wrote:

In other words, it would be no more or less effective than replying to a Bounce Probe - which is exactly my point, just that it would be easy and more likely to get to the bounced Subscriber/Member.

You are missing the point.

Group owner intervention in this case is of course a good idea, but having the subscriber send an unbounce request without having done anything to resolve the problem accomplishes nothing.

In principle, if they haven't already done something to resolve bouncing status, they will not receive the bounce probe, and therefore cannot respond to it.?
?
Regards,
Bruce
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Thank you Duane, for posting my suggestion to extend the restore time over on the Beta list.? Saw that, appreciate it.? I'd prefer this policy be completely changed, and not be so harsh, but at least this is a step in the right direction.

Patty Sliney

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Patty S.

When I create a poll, I almost always have an "other" choice because I know I won't have every option that could be used.? A minor change, like an additional choice, doesn't have much effect.? Yes, some may have chosen the new choice, but would have likely used "other" initially.? I just use them as information, never for an official, binding election.

Duane
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Bruce,

The editing retionale as you've explained makes sense to me.

Thanx,

Paul M.
==

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 06:33 PM, Michael Pavan wrote:

I have Subscribers/Members who are bouncing and I've sent Bounce Probes which have not been responded to.

Have you looked at your "Bouncing" members to try to get some clue as to why they are bouncing? I will accept that in some cases the information is less than entirely helpful, but in many cases it reveals (one way or another) that the recipient account no longer exists.

On the group I moderate we had > 600 bouncers, and I simply finished up deleting about 500 of the memberships in question. So far no - one has complained.

In addition, I cannot work out from your posts on this subject if you are conflating bounce problems with messages being interpreted as spam, which is an entirely separate problem.

Either way there is a finite limit to the time and effort I (and my fellow moderators) will expend trying to micromanage members; ultimately they have to take responsibility for their own actions, or lack of them.

Chris

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Patty Sliney wrote:

it's possible that the unsubbed list member will miss out on that 3 day window they have, to restore themselves.? That window should be set to 7 days.

Mark has just extended this to 7 days:


Duane
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Received from Duane at 10/3/2018 04:02 PM UTC:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:

This is something that Y! did right.

Not really. The only time I edit a poll is if I think of an additional answer that may be selected by a lot of people. The existing choices don't change, so aren't completely void, though may not be completely accurate either.

But accuracy matters!

It's easy enough to let folks know that the options have changed, so they can change their answer if they want to. I haven't tried changing existing choices, so I don't know what would happen with your example.

Duane

There's a change notice sent. But what percentage of those who have already voted will read the change notice? Not enough based on my experience with communicating anything via group email.



After receipt of your reply, I created a poll in one of my groups.

Initial poll: Which do you like better? 1) Chocolate Cake, 2) Brussels Sprouts

I and one other member voted within a couple of minutes. Two votes for chocolate cake.

Then I thought of "an additional answer that may be selected by a lot of people," so I edited the poll...

Edited poll: Which do you like better? 1) Chocolate Cake, 2) Brussels Sprouts, 3) My child

I changed my vote to "My child."

I waited about an hour... and then closed the poll.

Results? One vote for My Child, one for chocolate cake.

Had I waited a couple of days before changing the poll, I'm fairly sure the one other guy who voted - someone I know pays attention - would have either changed his vote or phoned me to ask "What the heck?" Many others who pay far less attention than he does would have voted in the initial poll for cake or sprouts and many of those wouldn't have noticed when the poll changed, or would see the title on the change message and assume it was just a reminder so they wouldn't even read it much less change their votes. So had I taken votes for several days before changing and then waited several more before closing there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that there would be many votes for Chocolate Cake and not so many for My child.

But never mind... if I run a poll and need to change something midstream I can delete the first poll and start a new one. Good luck to the pollsters who don't understand that midstream changes make for inaccurate polls. I mean, why run one if it's going to be run in a manner that assures inaccuracy? Not to mention the inaccuracies that are outside our (and Gio's) control, such as self-selected responders.

Jim H

Thank you Bruce that was just the answer I was looking for! I went ahead and began the transfer.
Thanks...... Bill

I would prefer to be able to tell them that, alternatively they can send an email to:
[email protected]

Is this an option?
Bouncing status reflects groups.io's ability to deliver messages, not receive them. For example, if a subscriber's mailbox is full, it is possible for that subscriber to post messages to the group while being unable to receive. Establishing an "unbounce" address would not help situations like this and will only cause accounts to immediately start bouncing again.

In other words, it would be no more or less effective than replying to a Bounce Probe - which is exactly my point, just that it would be easy and more likely to get to the bounced Subscriber/Member.

I wasn’t trying to solve everything about this problem, just that in this case Bounce Probes often are not received and/or found by Subscribers/Members. Such a ‘command’ email address could be a more successful alternative to the Bounce Probe. It would not be a replacement for the Bounce Probe, just another tool to try (manual, for when automatic has failed).

Other aspects of the problem which even Bounce Probes also fail to remedy, such as a full mailbox, could maybe be addressed by including that explanation in the Bounce notices sent to Subscriber/Member and Owner, as well as in the Bounce Probe (and so notified, the Owner could include it in their private email outreach, perhaps with text suggested by Groups.io).

Received from Bill Bradley at 10/3/2018 06:05 PM UTC:

I am a owner/moderator and subscriber of various io groups and I am transferring a group this week. I was wondering when the members of my Y group will get a notification email to switch over if I initiate the transfer today? Still running 2 weeks in queue?
(all preliminary steps have been completed).

I only have 150 members and will be meeting many of them this Sunday at our monthly meeting to announce the switch. I would rather them receive an email from me rather than groups first but don't want to delay.

Thank you in advance
Bill Bradley

I don't think anything replaces a message from you to the original Y! group sent as a "Special "Message" so all receive it... if for no other reason than that they should hear it from you first... and should hear it BEFORE it happens. Whether they ALL read any message you send (or that Gio sends later) is questionable, but that's the same for a message via Yahoo vs one via Groups.io.

I suggest a "Special Message" sent to the Y! group ASAP... followed by an announcement and maybe a Q&A session on Sunday. And later on some will still be completely surprised.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim H