Gaute,

Ah! That's interesting. Are Subscribers and Members different things?

No.

I've suggested carefully using forms of "subscribe" when discussing email things, and forms of "member" when discussing web things, however Mark has not taken that advice. He seems to treat the words as synonyms.

And in practice there's no distinction; there's only whether you happen to be logged in at the moment or not.

This differs slightly from the situation in Yahoo Groups, where there's an account ID (aka Yahoo Profile) that is distinct from one's email address. There members without an account ID listed for their subscription are considered "email only". They must add an account to their membership before they have "web access" to the group's pages as a member.

It used to be that many mail clients would snip away anything after a
line stating with " --" or was it "-- ".

The latter. That's still supported by many email interfaces, though some merely grey the text below the "sig" marker. It is defined in RFC 3676

Or perhaps it could be the "put it in a separate mime part" option? I
might remember that wrong. I did not test that :-)

Some email interfaces don't show the separate mime part. And groups that enable that option receive only the "plain text" format of footer, at least in individual mails. Unless Mark has fixed that (haven't checked lately).

Shal


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Michael Pavan wrote:
"I think the technically savvy just don’t get how intimidated non-technically savvy ‘civilians’ are."
and
"Technology is more accessible when advances are ‘backwards compatible’, i.e. do not remove the most basic options of the most basic users."


This is so very true, especially with older members who I describe as 'in the right hand lane of the information highway, driving slowly.' But in a historically-oriented group such as most of mine, these members are the very ones we want to hang onto most. They have the best remembrances and can tell some of the best stories.

This is good advice that should be framed and put on the wall where people can be constantly reminded of it.

Dano

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Thanks for you good will :-)
I have tested out most of the options for customizing the footer and reply-to without finding what I want.
However it now seems there is something strange about the URLs I am seeing, which is possibly related to a "secret" distinction between Members and Subscribers, so perhaps I'm on the path to figuring something out.

Now however, it's well beyond bedtime here, so good night to you all :-)

Gaute

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On 05. sep. 2018 20:05, Michael Pavan wrote:

The problem is that it's encouraged, and kind of breaks down, when the group is private.

Yes Web Access is encouraged - the non ‘mailto’ unsubscribe link is one instance

I think the technically savvy just don’t get how intimidated non-technically savvy ‘civilians’ are. 
Many feel very awkward with email 
(Think of US President Calvin Coolidge not wanting to touch light switches when the White House was electrified)
Even more fear screwing things up if they try to use websites (touch the third rail of an electric railroad) 

These people want to just be Subscribers (email only), rather than Members (email and web access)
NOTE; Groups.io ambiguously interchanges Subscriber and Member as if no one has difficulty with doing more than email…
Technology is more accessible when advances are ‘backwards compatible’, i.e. do not remove the most basic options of the most basic users.

Ah! That's interesting. Are Subscribers and Members different things?
I might have to look things over again with that distinction in mind.

And thanks for articulating so well what I was also trying to say about "civilians" :-)

I guess it mostly boils down to the links in the footer.

Agreed

See also Your Friend, the Footer.

Good info, shows the results of various options, as well as which links are ‘mailto'

And comment on it or update it as needed, if you're so inclined.

This is your best bet - unless/until Groups.io makes the footer ‘Email Subscriber only’ friendly (no web interaction required).
Maybe there should be ‘Email Subscriber only’ and Advanced (email and web) Member sections of the footer...

If Members and Subscribers are different classes, that would make a lot of sense.
I don't mind inviting people to explore, the "power user" possibilities in the web interface, just don't surprize them and make it an obstacle to doing what you want.

When I click the Unsubscribe link, it's not a mailto link with +unsubscribe but a link to a login page.
Not only that, but when you read all the fine print it asks you to "Use the Email me a link to log in button above", which is not above, but rather hiding under the "forgot password" link.

‘Loginlinks’ (temporary passwords) cross the line between ‘Email Only’ and ‘Web Access’.

Ah, yes. I was expecting to see something like that, but so far there are none.
Perhaps that's where the explanation for my disappointing experience is hidden.

In the early days a lot of effort went in to making the unsubscribe link as streamlined and simple as possible - many of the early adopters had run Yahoo Groups whose memberships were also largely email-only. It is possible that changes have crept in which make it no longer so.

Apparently creep has occurred.

Specific problems, like having the text conflict with the layout of the page, should be reported to [email protected] as bugs. 

Anyone wishing to test the Unsubscribe link should be aware of a couple of things:
	? If your browser has a Groups.io login cookie (that is, if you are logged in on some tab or window) then you will have a different presentation than an "email only" member who has never visited the site.
	? The unsubscribe link contains your account ID (the number just after the word "leave"). This identifies who to unsubscribe. The prompt to use a login link may be a defense against you trying to unsubscribe someone else - it serves the same purpose as the confirmation email sent after a +unsubscribe command. 

Serves the same purpose, but not in a friendly to all manner (techies forgot about ‘Email Subscriber only’ users)...


Too bad all the footer email links are not 'mailto' links.

You could add a custom section to the footer,
 [in Admin: Settings: Message Formatting: Message Footer ]
such as:

====================================================================================
====================================================================================

TO UNSUBSCRIBE BY EMAIL (ignore the other "unsubscribe" link, SEND AN EMAIL TO:
[email protected]
(NOYE: YOU WILL HAVE TO REPLY TO A ‘CONFIRM YOU UNSUBSCRIPTION' EMAIL, TOO)

====================================================================================
====================================================================================

Yeah, I experimented with that, but it just creates way to much text.
Especially when this middle bit is in Norwegian .-)

Some Subscribers and Members tell me that the messages they get have no footers. I haven't seen that happen with Groups.io, but often found the footer missing with YahooGroups when there was an attachment. Unfortunately, I believe many people overlook or ignore footers.

It used to be that many mail clients would snip away anything after a line stating with " --" or was it "-- ".
Or perhaps it could be the "put it in a separate mime part" option? I might remember that wrong. I did not test that :-)

Gaute

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On 05. sep. 2018 18:24, Shal Farley wrote:

Gaute,

The problem is that it's encouraged, and kind of breaks down, when the group is private.

I'm not clear on what you mean by this. I run a couple of Restricted Membership groups, most of the membership of those are "email only" - I suspect they've never visited the site.

They must be seasoned malinglist users then :)
If there is a link in the footer, somebody will click it, and then the "email only" experience breaks badly.

I guess it mostly boils down to the links in the footer.

See also Your Friend, the Footer. And comment on it or update it as needed, if you're so inclined.

I found that :)
Quite helpful, but I notice some discrepancies now.
It says "leave", while my footer says "unsubscribe".
It also claims the url is on the format of /g/<groupname>/leave/some/codes while my source clearly contains only /g/<gropname>/unsub.

When I click the Unsubscribe link, it's not a mailto link with +unsubscribe but a link to a login page.
Not only that, but when you read all the fine print it asks you to "Use the Email me a link to log in button above", which is not above, but rather hiding under the "forgot password" link.

In the early days a lot of effort went in to making the unsubscribe link as streamlined and simple as possible - many of the early adopters had run Yahoo Groups whose memberships were also largely email-only. It is possible that changes have crept in which make it no longer so. Specific problems, like having the text conflict with the layout of the page, should be reported to [email protected] as bugs.

I shall make a point of that, if I can actually make this work as I want it :-)

Anyone wishing to test the Unsubscribe link should be aware of a couple of things:

• If your browser has a Groups.io login cookie (that is, if you are logged in on some tab or window) then you will have a different presentation than an "email only" member who has never visited the site.
• The unsubscribe link contains your account ID (the number just after the word "leave"). This identifies who to unsubscribe. The prompt to use a login link may be a defense against you trying to unsubscribe someone else - it serves the same purpose as the confirmation email sent after a +unsubscribe command. n
  

Ah, there you say it again. But it doesn’t!
The links are of the /unsub and not /leave kind, and there is no account ID. This goes for the text/plain mime part as well, so it's not just some clever javascript acting up or something.
Changes have clearly crept in I'd say :-)

Gaute

PS. For testing and general control of privacy online, I can warmly recommend Firefox in combination with the plugins "Firefox multi account containers" and "cookie autodelete".
Makes it very simpe to be admin in one tab, and a completely blanc user in another one.

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On 05. sep. 2018 17:48, Glenn Glazer wrote:

On 9/5/2018 08:24, Gaute Amundsen wrote:

That you can have a private group, and you are not strictly forced to use the web-interface.
The problem is that it's encouraged, and kind of breaks down, when the group is private.

I don't understand this. It certainly doesn't happen with my groups. They are private and the web interface requires authentication.

It doesn't break "technically", just "conceptually".
You are promised "unsubscribe" but are led on a merry chase of small print and misnamed links.
There could have been some kind of one-time token on that link to avoid the login prompt, but there isn't.

Gaute

I did consider the renaming thing, but balked a bit a renaming hundreds of files.  Some rainy day perhaps.

Whether you rename or not, if you change now to YYYY.MM.DD at least the sort will going forward.

Oh, that's an excellent point, Michael.

Best,

Glenn


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Good day sir, I wanted to put my two cents in here. D footer can be edited 20 extent. Meaning if you want to, you can put the unsubscribe email address in the footer of an email. That way when they ask how to unsubscribe you can tell them to look at the very first message that comes out that is also showing the footer below it. It was normally up here the main folder. Which has all the links that you don't want. If you use what's up messenger, or anything of that nature, I would not mind speaking with you and guiding you to assist you and fixing up your it with want. I think there is one things that we may have to ask Mark to do and that would be to make a setting so where Eminem somebody work to request to join the group it would automatically get the message that says that this group cannot be joined without having an invitation to join at it first. I would look into those types of things and you talked about possibly paying somebody to commands the Interface for you. As a manager for cervical list, I do this sort of thing for free. So if you needed or wanted an extra hand no problem.

On Sep 5, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Gaute Amundsen <gaute@...> wrote:

Thanks everybody for the good responses :-)

I'm aware of all the points you bring up.
That you can have a private group, and you are not strictly forced to use the web-interface.
The problem is that it's encouraged, and kind of breaks down, when the group is private.

The reply-to: issue is separate matter, and of course dependent on client behaviour, but from my, admittedly limited, experience hand crafting mailheaders, what I want should be entirely doable. But all that is s secondary at this point.

I guess it mostly boils down to the links in the footer.

An example.
When I click the Unsubscribe link, it's not a mailto link with +unsubscribe but a link to a login page.
Not only that, but when you read all the fine print it asks you to "Use the Email me a link to log in button above", which is not above, but rather hiding under the "forgot password" link. There is no way I can ask my users to jump through hoops like this to unsubscribe. I'd end up doing it manually, and with loss of goodwill.
The same goes for the New Topic link, etc.
I expect this behaviour may be partially because the group is private, but I can see at least one way this could have been made much smoother regardless.

Yes you can do without the webinterface, but you have to know all these things or read the docs, and there is no way I can expect that to work with 40 random parents of 6 year olds.

I seem to remember a time when mailinglists were big and freemium listservs must have been plentiful, before yahoo and googlegroups made the territory a wasteland :-(
Now its looking like I might end up having to sign up for some cheap hosting with cpanel and gnu mailman to get what I want.
I'd much rather pay someone a little to avoid setting up and maintaining all that, but who..?

Gaute

PS. I'm in the UTC+1 timezone, so that's why the latency :-)

[excess quote trimmed by moderator]

I did consider the renaming thing, but balked a bit a renaming hundreds of files. Some rainy day perhaps.

Whether you rename or not, if you change now to YYYY.MM.DD at least the sort will going forward.

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:

Is it possible to set the default sort order for a directory to uploaded descending (most recent at the top)?

The sort order can be changed as needed by clicking on the column headers. As Duane mentioned, some way to "remember" this has been suggested a few times, with no clear consensus being reached on how it would be done. Is *forcing* subscribers to see the files in a certain way really a desirable thing? Is this a group setting or a subscriber setting? If the latter, should it be stored in the subscriber record, or as a browser cookie?

And so on. I suspect resolution remains a long way off.

As a work-around, I suggest that you come up with a file naming convention so the files are initially displayed the way you want. Something like "2018-08 Meeting Minutes" might suffice.
?
Regards,
Bruce

In my view, it would be a per user setting overrideable per directory by the admin. I can also understand where that would require significant work.? I think the forcing question is a non-issue because allowing the admin to set it is not the same thing as requiring the admin to set it and so it is left to each group's admins to decide what is best for their group.

I did consider the renaming thing, but balked a bit a renaming hundreds of files.? Some rainy day perhaps.

Best,

Glenn


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On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:

Is it possible to set the default sort order for a directory to uploaded descending (most recent at the top)?

The sort order can be changed as needed by clicking on the column headers. As Duane mentioned, some way to "remember" this has been suggested a few times, with no clear consensus being reached on how it would be done. Is *forcing* subscribers to see the files in a certain way really a desirable thing? Is this a group setting or a subscriber setting? If the latter, should it be stored in the subscriber record, or as a browser cookie?

And so on. I suspect resolution remains a long way off.

As a work-around, I suggest that you come up with a file naming convention so the files are initially displayed the way you want. Something like "2018-08 Meeting Minutes" might suffice.
?
Regards,
Bruce
--
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The problem is that it's encouraged, and kind of breaks down, when the group is private.

Yes Web Access is encouraged - the non ‘mailto’ unsubscribe link is one instance

I think the technically savvy just don’t get how intimidated non-technically savvy ‘civilians’ are.
Many feel very awkward with email
(Think of US President Calvin Coolidge not wanting to touch light switches when the White House was electrified)
Even more fear screwing things up if they try to use websites (touch the third rail of an electric railroad)

These people want to just be Subscribers (email only), rather than Members (email and web access)
NOTE; Groups.io ambiguously interchanges Subscriber and Member as if no one has difficulty with doing more than email…
Technology is more accessible when advances are ‘backwards compatible’, i.e. do not remove the most basic options of the most basic users.

I guess it mostly boils down to the links in the footer.

Agreed

See also Your Friend, the Footer.

Good info, shows the results of various options, as well as which links are ‘mailto'

And comment on it or update it as needed, if you're so inclined.

This is your best bet - unless/until Groups.io makes the footer ‘Email Subscriber only’ friendly (no web interaction required).
Maybe there should be ‘Email Subscriber only’ and Advanced (email and web) Member sections of the footer...

When I click the Unsubscribe link, it's not a mailto link with +unsubscribe but a link to a login page.
Not only that, but when you read all the fine print it asks you to "Use the Email me a link to log in button above", which is not above, but rather hiding under the "forgot password" link.

‘Loginlinks’ (temporary passwords) cross the line between ‘Email Only’ and ‘Web Access’.

In the early days a lot of effort went in to making the unsubscribe link as streamlined and simple as possible - many of the early adopters had run Yahoo Groups whose memberships were also largely email-only. It is possible that changes have crept in which make it no longer so.

Apparently creep has occurred.

Specific problems, like having the text conflict with the layout of the page, should be reported to [email protected] as bugs.

Anyone wishing to test the Unsubscribe link should be aware of a couple of things:
? If your browser has a Groups.io login cookie (that is, if you are logged in on some tab or window) then you will have a different presentation than an "email only" member who has never visited the site.
? The unsubscribe link contains your account ID (the number just after the word "leave"). This identifies who to unsubscribe. The prompt to use a login link may be a defense against you trying to unsubscribe someone else - it serves the same purpose as the confirmation email sent after a +unsubscribe command.

Serves the same purpose, but not in a friendly to all manner (techies forgot about ‘Email Subscriber only’ users)...


Too bad all the footer email links are not 'mailto' links.

You could add a custom section to the footer,
[in Admin: Settings: Message Formatting: Message Footer ]
such as:

====================================================================================
====================================================================================

TO UNSUBSCRIBE BY EMAIL (ignore the other "unsubscribe" link, SEND AN EMAIL TO:
[email protected]
(NOYE: YOU WILL HAVE TO REPLY TO A ‘CONFIRM YOU UNSUBSCRIPTION' EMAIL, TOO)

====================================================================================
====================================================================================


Some Subscribers and Members tell me that the messages they get have no footers. I haven't seen that happen with Groups.io, but often found the footer missing with YahooGroups when there was an attachment. Unfortunately, I believe many people overlook or ignore footers.

You can change it, but it's not remembered.? Remembering the default (last used) for each user has been brought up on the beta group several times.? I believe it's on the todo list.

Duane
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Hi, Dave,

Actually, I (the list owner for the group in question) saw this person's request and
changed their name earlier this morning.

The old name did get transferred from Yahoo and that's what kept showing up
when they posted.? But that should now change.

Peter

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be sure to check the Display Name for the Group and the Display Name for the Account - they are different.
I just tested this and the Display Name for the Group is used in the From: field in the emails sent from groups.io.
If no Display Name for the Group is set, then no Name is added to the From: field, it only contains the email address.? And on the web, no display name is shown for the subscriber, for any messages (it shows the @username if that is set).

Thanks
Toby

Thanks (though I would argue that my "misunderstanding" is a caused by a complete lack of explanation on the Settings page of what it does)

For one of my groups, most of the files we upload are either minutes of meetings or officer reports.? When I go to, for example, the minutes folder, the files are all in alphabetical order.? Since the files are named things like "August 2018 General Meeting Minutes", this means that the minutes for every April for all years comes first, then the August one and so on.

Not so useful.

Is it possible to set the default sort order for a directory to uploaded descending (most recent at the top)?

Best,

Glenn


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