On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:49 am, Patty Fletcher wrote:

I’m considering unsubscribing her and having her begin at the beginning.

If she wants to use two email addresses to post to the list, it's better for her to set up one as an alias.

Once you figure out which address is actually subscribed, have her log in (see /static/help#password), find the group online, and click on the Account menu at upper right. Scroll down and click on the bar labeled Advanced Settings for Email Aliases. Enter the second email address in the box and click on Add Email Alias.

This will allow her to POST from that secondary email address without any problems. All group email will still ARRIVE at the subscribed address, however.

Hope this helps,
Bruce
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Hello and thanks for this.
I'll get to work on it straight away.

Received from Patty Fletcher at 7/9/2018 06:04 PM UTC:

Hello:
I do not know if this has already been covered and I missed it or no.
But.
I have a group member who is receiving messages but when she replies to the list the message bounces back to her.
So, what should I do that I've not done.
I don't have a copy of her error message.
If that helps let me know and I'll have her send one to me.
Thanks.

Patty L. Fletcher

Ask her to send you a copy of the bounce message she receives. That should be easy for her to do since for every message she sends to the group she gets one.

You could also ask her to send another message to the list and to CC: you on it at the same time. In the copy you receive, look at the address she's sending from and see if it's the address she was using when posting worked for her. She could have registered another address you don't know about, but this is a good first step toward eliminating sending from the wrong address as a cause.

Jim H

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In the Privacy setting, under 'Visibility' it gives several choices. One is:
"Group listed in directory; publicly viewable messages."
Another is:
"Group listed in directory; private messages"

When I tried to select the second one, I received a warning, "Are you sure you wish to make this group's archives private? Private archives cannot be reverted later."

Does the first choice mean that anyone on Groups.io can read the messages/posts of our group??

Thanks,
Paula

David, Seems to me that you are acting as a message relay for your announcement-only group.? So you get an email from some other organization and then post it to your group - but you don't want any replies.

Have you looked at the Email integration feature which would allow you to create a receive-only email address that posts to your group?? You subscribe the receive-only email address to the other org's mail list and Boom! you're out of the relay business...? This would work if you want to relay all emails from the org's mail list to the group and it's okay for the group members to deal with the announcement and contact the other org without doing a reply to the announcement email.? You could put a message in the footer reminding them.

Jeff,

... I set up the DKIM records as they show. ... Around the end of May
all emails from groups.io started bouncing. I can send to my groups,
but I do not get the message in my inbox. All message from any group
and from anyone bounce now.

DKIM is an authentication technology (digital signature), so I would expect that setting it up in your email provider would affect the messages you send TO Groups.io, not the messages you receive FROM Groups.io.

Where can I look to try and figure out why? I don't see anything
helpful in the logs. This is the only message I see and it is on
every message. "554 5.2.3 MailPolicy violation Error delivering to
mailboxes".

I presume you're seeing this in the "Email Delivery History" of the Subscription page (or in your Members record) in one of your groups? That's where bounce-related info goes. If somewhere else, please explain.

I talked to Zoho, and they recommended setting my DKIM to "quarantine"
instead of "temporary reject". I just did that. I also white listed
groups.io. I sent a test message and it didn't bounce this time.

Ah, so your provider has controls for the disposition of incoming messages based on those message's signature.

But "temporary reject" sounds like greylisting, which shouldn't have caused a complete failure, and in particular it should have been returned to Groups.io with a 4xy not a 554 code. 5xy are codes for a "permanent" error.

I am not a fan of white listing! Any suggestions or help on where to
look wold be appreciated.

Groups.io strips off the signature you supplied when you sent your message to the group, and applies its own signature to the messages it delivers to members. This is correct and necessary because Groups.io modifies the message content (adds footers, if nothing else), invalidating your original signature. But that shouldn't matter to ZoHo.

Given that all Groups.io messages are now bouncing perhaps they are objecting to the fact that the message says that the messages are "From" you (your email domain) or some other member, but is sent to them by Groups.io.

Do you find any exceptions? Do messages from people using Yahoo Mail or AOL, for example, get through? If so that would tend to confirm the idea that the problem is a conflict in the From versus the sender.

Whitelisting may be your only solution. The real answer is for Zoho to improve their inbound processing to properly allow for message that pass through email lists, even when those lists which preserve the original From field. It sounds like they've gone in a DMARC-like direction, if so they should go all the way, including ARC processing for mailing list messages.

Shal


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This should be sent to support so Mark can investigate.

Received from Shal Farley at 7/9/2018 07:33 AM UTC:

David,

In Yahoo Groups, I could put a Reply-To: header in the message I sent, and when people replied, it would go to that address.

I thought I knew Y!Groups inside and out, but this is a new one on me.

I don't know if there may be some combinations of settings that prevents this from working, but it has worked for all my old Y! groups for many years.

It may be useful for those with good intentions, but it's a bad thing because it overrides the settings the Owner/Moderator thought he was making when deciding whether responses should be directed to the group or to the author being replied to. And - as one example - imagine engaging (foolishly) in a "candid" discussion about your boss and then have someone set the boss as the "Reply-to:" address.

I'm glad Groups.io inserts a "Reply-to:" header that I assume overwrites any "Reply-to:" a sender may insert.

Is there any way to get the Yahoo behaviour?

In the context of discussion groups where the Owner is given a setting to determine reply-to behavior, the Yahoo behavior is "broken." I'd hope Groups.io never considers implementing it.

Jim H

David,

They do say you learn something new every day, so you have. :-)
...
Remember this is an announcement group, as that may make a difference.

Indeed. I didn't catch that.

I haven't worked with announcement groups (or at least not recently enough to remember) in either Y!Groups or Groups.io, and didn't anticipate that it would make a difference. But given your more detailed description, it apparently does.

Have you actually looked at the headers of the messages sent through
groups.io or Yahoo?

Yes, extensively. But apparently not from announcement groups.

Then at some stage, they changed the From: address to be some
convoluted version of the group e-mail address:

Yes, that's a DMARC-related change:


You may notice that Groups.io also changes From addresses, but only for certain sending domains (AOL, and Yahoo Mail among them, but not Gmail).
/static/help#dmarc

If there was a Reply-To: header in the message received by Groups,
that header was used instead of the above default one in the message
sent out to group members.

Interesting. I'll have to try that it my test groups (Yahoo and Groups.io). I initially thought you meant that you were using some setting within the group to apply these custom Reply-To fields. This may be the something new I learn.

I suspect this is actually a bug, and that probably the reason the
Reply-To: is being added because it is supposed to contain the address
from the incoming message's Reply-To:.

Sounds plausible.

I had thought the logic in Groups.io was to always insert a Reply-To matching the group's Reply To setting. But if that's not the case in announcement groups, and in particular if it is conditioned on the presence of an inbound Reply-To field then it seems reasonable that it should copy the field content.

I think reporting it to [email protected] would be the way to go with that.

So does that explain it enough for you? :-)

Yes, thank you!

Enough for me to want to go try it out in my test groups. Alas the work week is beginning, so I'm not sure when I'll get around to that. If you report it Mark may have it fixed before the weekend rolls around. ;-)

Shal


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My personal email domain is being hosted by Zoho.com.? I set up the DKIM records as they show.? For over a year it has been working just fine.? Around the end of May all emails from groups.io started bouncing.? I can send to my groups, but I do not get the message in my inbox.? All message from any group and from anyone bounce now.

I checked the DKIM records, and they are OK.? It appears to only be messages from groups.io.? I am getting email from everyone else OK.

Where can I look to try and figure out why?? I don't see anything helpful in the logs.? This is the only message I see and it is on every message.? "554 5.2.3 MailPolicy violation Error delivering to mailboxes".

I talked to Zoho, and they recommended setting my DKIM to "quarantine" instead of "temporary reject".? I just did that.? I also white listed groups.io.? I sent a test message and it didn't bounce this time.

I am not a fan of white listing!? Any suggestions or help on where to look wold be appreciated.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:17 am, Heijo Alting wrote:

I know, I clicked on it, but it's still empty.

If it's empty, then you either have no transfers pending, or you are logged in under a different email address than you used when you tried this the last time. Is that a possibility?

Bruce?
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I don't think "the Yahoo behavior" exists as you've described it. Maybe if you can give some details that will help me understand what you did and what effect it had.

They do say you learn something new every day, so you have. :-) I have been using this for years in Yahoo, and it is extremely useful for saving the admin from having to forward lots of replies to someone else.

Remember this is an announcement group, as that may make a difference.

I send messages to the group address with my e-mail program. If I put a Reply-To: header in those messages, for Yahoo the message goes out to the group members with that Reply-To: header in it. For groups.io, it does not. But read on....

> In Groups.io, the Reply-To: seems to be stripped out of the message

members get.

Quite the contrary. Groups.io (and Y!Groups) inserts a Reply-To field in the header of every outbound message. The content of that field is determined by the "Reply To" selection you make in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Have you actually looked at the headers of the messages sent through groups.io or Yahoo? Note that this is as received by a group member, not what Yahoo or groups.io web interface shows.

Let me explain what is happening, starting with Yahoo. Again, remember that this is an announcement group, and that discussion groups may be different.

In the original Yahoo Groups, the sender's e-mail address was in the From: header and there was no Reply-To: header. If you replied to a message, it went to the From: address.

Then at some stage, they changed the From: address to be some convoluted version of the group e-mail address:

From: "Newcastle Club NewcastleClub989@... [Newcastle_Club_Members]" <Newcastle_Club_Members-noreply@...>

At the same time, they added a Reply-To: header for the actual sender's address (or the group address if it had been set up that way):

Reply-To: NewcastleClub989@...

If there was a Reply-To: header in the message received by Groups, that header was used instead of the above default one in the message sent out to group members.


From my investigation of groups.io messages, I think there is normally just the sender's address in the From: header and no Reply-To: header. Again, an announcement group!

However, if there was a Reply-To: header in the message as received by the group, a Reply-To: header is inserted with the sender's address, the same as the From: address. (The group is set up as reply to sender.) The actual address in the incoming message's Reply-To: is lost.

Adding a Reply-To: in this case seems to be unnecessary, since it is just duplicating the From: address.

I suspect this is actually a bug, and that probably the reason the Reply-To: is being added because it is supposed to contain the address from the incoming message's Reply-To:.

If the group is a discussion group, this may all be different, although it does not seem unreasonable in that case too for a Reply-To: header on an incoming message to be included in messages sent to group members.

So does that explain it enough for you? :-)

Cheers

David

David,

I have a couple of announcement groups where I send out messages from
other organisations.

I belatedly realized there's another interpretation of "where I send out". Do /you/ send these messages to the group's posting address from your email address (or on the web using your Yahoo Account to sign in to the group's pages?

Or do the other organizations send these messages to your group's posting address from their own email addresses, and/or using their own Yahoo Groups sign-in?

In the latter case the setting you're looking for is the one I named: chose "Sender" as your selection in the Reply To option in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Shal


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David,

In Yahoo Groups, I could put a Reply-To: header in the message I sent,
and when people replied, it would go to that address.

I thought I knew Y!Groups inside and out, but this is a new one on me. Unless you mean you were able to put that header field in the body of a message and have it work. Which would still surprise me.

In Groups.io, the Reply-To: seems to be stripped out of the message
members get.

Quite the contrary. Groups.io (and Y!Groups) inserts a Reply-To field in the header of every outbound message. The content of that field is determined by the "Reply To" selection you make in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Is there any way to get the Yahoo behaviour?

I don't think "the Yahoo behavior" exists as you've described it. Maybe if you can give some details that will help me understand what you did and what effect it had.

Shal


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I know, I clicked on it, but it's still empty.

Heijo