storage limits in basic plan
Within less than a year, our group has exceeded 25% of its 1 GB of storage allowed in the basic plan. I got that by adding up the amount we're using for files, plus the amounts, listed in the photos section, that it's saying we're using for attachments and photos. Because our group doesn't allow members to add files, they usually include their cats' labwork as attachments, and then a moderator uploads it into the files section. The result is that a lot of our data is being stored, and counted, twice.? Is there a way, beyond deleting entire messages, of removing attachments from messages after they are sent, to reduce the amount of storage being used? I doubt that there is, so my next question is whether this would be a reasonable suggestion on beta.? Please don't suggest that we simply allow members to add their own files. There are specific reasons we don't want to do this. Thanks. J
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
I would think that having a "List-Unsubscribe line in the header" would be an important item for services like YahooMail or AOL. It should also help Mark prevent problems with other services that may implement this tactic later. I'd "bother" him about it. ;>)
Duane
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 05:06 pm, Shal Farley wrote:
groups.io digests haven't List-Unsubscribe line in the header. Oh. Have you reported this to Mark?
I already bothered him too many times, I hesitate. :)
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Lena, I caught yahooMail doing exactly that.
Users typically don't care to use the Not Spam button. This would seem to be a problem for any list service, with users of such email providers. If the list service responds to the spam feedback by unsubscribing the member, but the feedback was generated by a seemingly harmless action (deleting a message from the junk folder rather than not-spam'ing it first), that will be a bad user experience. It's hard to say who the user will blame for it, which is why I suggested that Mark make the message to the member very explicit that the mail provider initiated the action. I can believe that some email providers do that even if the message in
Spam folder was not deleted by the user, but expired. :( Alas, I too can believe that a service would mindlessly treat both kinds of deletion the same. But yikes, that's a much worse user experience: they get unsubscribed "out of the blue" when a message they never saw ages out of the spam folder. Unsubscribe request is not the same as feedback report. An IP-address
owner can subscribe to feedback reports. The how-to is in Help pages for
postmasters, not for users. Unsubscribe button appears if the email
provider found a standard line in the message header
(List-Unsubscribe). Ok, so if the header field is there, and the unsubscribe button clicked, then the list manager gets back the mailto: they put in the header field as distinct from a feedback report. But whether the list gets an unsubscribe message or a feedback report isn't really the issue here. The concern that caused Mark to take down the FBL mechanism a while back was that many of the affected users wrote to him claiming not to have unsubscribed. I was wondering if those users simply forgot or misunderstood their action that caused the unsubscription. Unfortunately you've confirmed, at least in the case of Yahoo Mail, that the member's action could have been a simple deletion, which they had no reason to believe would result in unsubscription. Or worse, we both suspect that it could happen without any action on the member's part. And it is that latter case, where simply having a message delivered to the spam folder and later expire might cause a feedback report, forces me to reverse my answer to J - it just might be possible that merely having the provider determine that a message is spam could cause a feedback report and result in unsubscription. So the advice against using such email providers isn't wrong. It's is either that or be vigilant about checking one's spam folder and marking group messages as not-spam. Of course, that's a good idea with any email provider - if for no other reason than that you might have missed those messages and marking them not-spam may eventually help reduce the chances that future group messages will end up in the spam folder. BTW, groups.io digests haven't List-Unsubscribe line in the header. Oh. Have you reported this to Mark? That might be a contributing factor also; I don't have any way to know how many of the people who complained might have been on Digest but he might. Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
So, the bottom line is that AOL makes it a point to teach their users to be
even bigger idiots than they were when they signed up for AOL
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 22:35 PM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL)
mechanisms
?
I found this in AOL's help pages.??
?
How
do I unsubscribe from email newsletters that I receive?[excess quote and long quote trimmed by moderator]
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 08:04 pm, Shal Farley wrote: One question I'd have is what happens if a message is delivered to the spam
folder, and the user deletes it from there rather than first designating it as
not-spam. Does that constitute an implicit confirmation (marking) of the
message as being spam? If so that could account for the users' belief that
they had not done such marking. I caught yahooMail doing exactly that. Users typically don't care to use the Not Spam button. I can believe that some email providers do that even if the message in Spam folder was not deleted by the user, but expired. :( On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 08:45 pm, Shal Farley wrote: AOL's help page strongly implies that the user's action, clicking Spam and
then Unsubscribe, is what causes the unsubscribe request (feedback
report) to be sent. Unsubscribe request is not the same as feedback report. An IP-address owner can subscribe to feedback reports. The how-to is in Help pages for postmasters, not for users. Unsubscribe button appears if the email provider found a standard line in the message header (List-Unsubscribe). BTW, groups.io digests haven't List-Unsubscribe line in the header.
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
J, I was hoping too, but I never got the message, so how could I have that
evidence? THAT SAID: she later forwarded me the sent message and it WAS
sent to the +owner address. Short of having a CC from a sent message that will do, so long as the forward seems to quote the To: field entirely and intact. Yes, it's a thing. "Message from pending sub." ...
There's not a separate item for that in the Actions drop-down for search Perhaps because your group is unrestricted? Nope. I just missed it, looking for the wrong thing. "Non-subscriber message" versus "Message from pending sub" My hobgoblin rebels at that inconsistent phrasing. But in any case, since she was pending, the message should not only have
been received, but also logged in her +owner messages on her member
page, as they always are for pending members. It wasn't, so I believe
that it never got through, OR that it was not logged. Or something. More
likely the first, and my prime suspect is still AOL. I suppose it is possible that AOL claims to have delivered the message to Groups.io but didn't. An outright fabrication like that seems unlikely to me, but perhaps the delivery transaction had some sort of error leaving each side with a different status result (Groups.io thinking nope, AOL thinking yup). I've heard of the reverse, where the sender thought the transaction failed and later re-tried, resulting in doubled delivery (or even more than double). In any case, I think we've exhausted the evidence that users can dig up; digging deeper will likely require access to the mail server logs. Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Ok, thanks, Shal. I think I'm starting to get a handle on this. J
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
J, That is my MAIN concern. Nobody who's subscribed to my group marks their
emails from here as spam. What typically happens is that someone claims
not to have been getting the emails, and then they look in their spam
folder, and lo and behold, there they are. So far no harm, no foul - at least as far as the feedback mechanism is concerned. The member may have been disappointed to find the messages in their spam folder rather than their inbox but presumably there's a means to mark the messages as "not spam" (which may automatically move them to the members inbox). This to me says that AOL is the guilty party in mistakenly marking
messages as spam. AOL is guilty of delivering the messages to the spam folder, but I'm fairly convinced (especially now seeing Kate's find) that delivery there would not of itself cause a feedback report to be sent to Groups.io. AOL's help page strongly implies that the user's action, clicking Spam and then Unsubscribe, is what causes the unsubscribe request (feedback report) to be sent. Would it be correct to tell members that if they OR their email client
marks a message from Groups.io as spam, they will be automatically
unsubscribed? I still do not think so, as described above. It really would not make sense for AOL to send a feedback report to Groups.io simply because the filter placed a group message into the user's spam folder. Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Kate, I found this in AOL's help pages.
How do I unsubscribe from email newsletters that I receive?
... Excellent, Thanks! For the record the URL appears to be: In general, and for this project, I'd prefer to have just a relevant snippet of the article together with a link to it. That keeps us clear of any copyright claims the author might have, and it gives us a way to cite the material going forward. In this case though I doubt AOL will have any concerns about a quote of their publicly available help text. And wow. I'm a bit taken aback that their mechanism is to have the member explicitly use the Spam button first rather than supply a more appropriate "Unsubscribe" button upfront. In my mind the two should never be conflated like that. It makes me want to shout in AOL's face: a list you no longer wish to hear from IS NOT SPAM. That's so wrong. At least the confirmation pop-up says Unsubscribe, but by then it is in some sense too late: the user has already been influenced to think of list messages as "spam" simply because they no longer wish to subscribe. Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 08:04 pm, Shal Farley wrote: My only concern about this understanding is Mark's report that some people who were unsubscribed in the past claimed that they had not marked any messages as spam. Shal, That is my MAIN concern. Nobody who's subscribed to my group marks their emails from here as spam. What typically happens is that someone claims not to have been getting the emails, and then they look in their spam folder, and lo and behold, there they are. This to me says that AOL is the guilty party in mistakenly marking messages as spam.? Would it be correct to tell members that if they OR their email client marks a message from Groups.io as spam, they will be automatically unsubscribed? J
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
J, This is exactly what I'm afraid of. I've already been advising members
(in strong terms) that they should not use an AOL email address for the
group, or there are no guarantees about them getting all messages. If Mark is right about AOL's expectations, this mechanism should improve delivery for most members. The theory is that AOL has been blocking some Groups.io messages at least in part because Groups.io hasn't been respecting the feedback about members who mark messages as spam. The new setup could provide a way to emphasize that, but it needs to be
done in such a way that Groups.io is not blamed. Mark hasn't indicated how many AOL users this might affect. But possibly it is a small percentage of any group's AOL-using members. The rest, hopefully the great majority, might see things getting better. At any rate the unaffected members wouldn't have anything new to blame on Groups.io, only the ousted members would. I want to be preemptive about this before the ousted and outraged
members come banging at our doors. Would it be legitimate to tell
members right now that "if AOL marks a message from Groups.io as spam,
you may be automatically unsubscribed from the group"? No, I don't think so. My understanding is that the volition here is on the part of the user, not AOL. That is, the feedback happens when the user marks a group's message as spam, not merely because a message was automatically directed to the user's spam folder. My only concern about this understanding is Mark's report that some people who were unsubscribed in the past claimed that they had not marked any messages as spam. One possibility is that those people failed to remember doing so, another possibility is that there's a more implicit way one gets reported. One question I'd have is what happens if a message is delivered to the spam folder, and the user deletes it from there rather than first designating it as not-spam. Does that constitute an implicit confirmation (marking) of the message as being spam? If so that could account for the users' belief that they had not done such marking. I assume it's correct to say that AOL is responsible for the marking of
Groups.io messages as spam. But is it? AOL is responsible for delivering messages that it deems to be spam to the user's spam folder. But what Mark said is "when their members mark emails as spam" -- that would leave out the automatic discrimination. That terminology is consistent with the usual behavior of content-based spam filters: usually the filter is only adjusted when the (human) user marks a message as "spam" or "not-spam" in contradiction to the filter result. If the filter adjusted itself based on its own results it would become "over trained", which usually makes such a filter worthless at predicting its user's preference. Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
I found this in AOL's help pages. ?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Shal Farley <shals2nd@...>
To: GroupManagersForum < [email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2016 9:09 pm
Subject: [GMF] Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Hi all,
There's an interesting thread on beta@ where Mark has been discussing a mechanism whereby certain email providers will report (Feed Back) to a list service such as Groups.io when a user marks a list's message as Spam. Apparently the email provider expects their user to be automatically unsubscribed from the list as a result.
/g/beta/message/10753
Does anyone here who uses one of the cited email services (AOL, Yahoo, and MSN) know about this mechanism? And in particular can you cite documentation about it in the service's help pages, user forums, or elsewhere?
I have a feeling that this topic is likely to become something we should cover in the Advice to Group Members section of GMF's wiki. Mark has turned on the Feature for AOL addresses, says he will likely do so for the others too.
So I suspect there will be ousted (and outraged) members banging on our groups' doors to find out what happened. I'd like to have some information here which fellow mods can point to that will help answer their members' questions and maybe even provide useful service-specific guidance on how to avoid being ousted again.
Shal
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Re: Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Shal, This is exactly what I'm afraid of. I've already been advising members (in strong terms) that they should not use an AOL email address for the group, or there are no guarantees about them getting all messages. The new setup could provide a way to emphasize that, but it needs to be done in such a way that Groups.io is not blamed. I want to be preemptive about this before the ousted and outraged members come banging at our doors. Would it be legitimate to tell members right now that "if AOL marks a message from Groups.io as spam, you may be automatically unsubscribed from the group"? That puts the blame squarely on AOL's shoulders, where it belongs. I assume it's correct to say that AOL is responsible for the marking of Groups.io messages as spam. But is it? J
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Information about spam FeedBack Loop (FBL) mechanisms
Hi all, There's an interesting thread on beta@ where Mark has been discussing a mechanism whereby certain email providers will report (Feed Back) to a list service such as Groups.io when a user marks a list's message as Spam. Apparently the email provider expects their user to be automatically unsubscribed from the list as a result. /g/beta/message/10753Does anyone here who uses one of the cited email services (AOL, Yahoo, and MSN) know about this mechanism? And in particular can you cite documentation about it in the service's help pages, user forums, or elsewhere? I have a feeling that this topic is likely to become something we should cover in the Advice to Group Members section of GMF's wiki. Mark has turned on the Feature for AOL addresses, says he will likely do so for the others too. So I suspect there will be ousted (and outraged) members banging on our groups' doors to find out what happened. I'd like to have some information here which fellow mods can point to that will help answer their members' questions and maybe even provide useful service-specific guidance on how to avoid being ousted again. Shal
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 08:26 am, J_catlady wrote: I've never gotten a to +owner message from anyone from a subscriber or pending subscriber ?That was a typo. I meant "from anyone BUT a subscriber or pending subscriber."?
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 02:09 am, Shal Farley wrote: I was hoping for more direct evidence of the actual address in the sent message. I was hoping too, but I never got the message, so how could I have that evidence? THAT SAID: she later forwarded me the sent message and it WAS sent to the +owner address. I have yet to check the dates and times against everything else that happened and will do that this morning. Is that a thing? That is, Pending as distinguished from Non-subscriber? Yes, it's a thing. "Message from pending sub." I didn't know it, either, but I went into the drop-down search items looking for +owner messages (which I didn't know existed, either, until you told me to look for it) and found the "message from pending sub" item.
There's not a separate item for that in the Actions drop-down for search
Perhaps because your group is unrestricted? The examples of non-subscriber messages to +owner I have are logged simply as:
[address] sent message [subject] to owners I've never gotten a to +owner message from anyone from a subscriber or pending subscriber, so I've never seen that. But in any case, since she was pending, the message should not only have been received, but also logged in her +owner messages on her member page, as they always are for pending members. It wasn't, so I believe that it never got through, OR that it was not logged. Or something. More likely the first, and my prime suspect is still AOL. I suppose that's not an unlikely circumstance given the nature of your group. Right. It's the norm.:-)
Thanks much, and will keep you posted. J
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
J, She was apparently simply hitting "reply" to the automatically sent
"pending member notice," which comes from the +owner address. I was hoping for more direct evidence of the actual address in the sent message. The inference here relies on her memory and/or the behavior of her email user interface. HOWEVER: I have since discovered that there's a logged "nonsubscriber
message" from her at around that time, and I've asked Mark offlist to
check the address the message was sent to.
Either way, there's a problem. If she sent it to the group instead of
the +owner address, it should have been logged as "message from pending
sub" - but it wasn't. Is that a thing? That is, Pending as distinguished from Non-subscriber? I've not seen that, but then the only restricted groups I run aren't active here yet (haven't performed the Easy Group Transfer, so as yet they're just placeholders). There's not a separate item for that in the Actions drop-down for search, but perhaps those would be included in the Non-subscriber Message item. If, OTOH, she did send it to the +owner address, then it should not have been logged as "message from nonsubscriber." The examples of non-subscriber messages to +owner I have are logged simply as: [address] sent message [subject] to owners I think asking her to take part in experiments would be inappropriate.
She has a very sick cat and is really stressed out. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure your discretion in the matter will be appreciated. I suppose that's not an unlikely circumstance given the nature of your group. Shal
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
Shal, She was apparently simply hitting "reply" to the automatically sent "pending member notice," which comes from the +owner address. HOWEVER: I have since discovered that there's a logged "nonsubscriber message" from her at around that time, and I've asked Mark offlist to check the address the message was sent to. Either way, there's a problem. If she sent it to the group instead of the +owner address, it should have been logged as "message from pending sub" - but it wasn't. If, OTOH, she did send it to the +owner address, then it should not have been logged as "message from nonsubscriber."? As I said before, messages to +owner from pending subs are always received by all the moderators, even though the others besides me are sent to receive messages "from subscribers only." Hers was not received by anyone.? I think asking her to take part in experiments would be inappropriate. She has a very sick cat and is really stressed out. J
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Re: anyone know if Groups.io messages to aol members tend to go into spam a lot?
J, The person forwarded me the time-stamped, sent email so she's not making
this up. Can you verify from what she sent you that she had the +owner address completely correct (including details like +owner not -owner)? If not, you or Mark should ask that she CC your personal email address on her next attempt to send to the +owner address, that way you can check the details. Getting the address wrong was often a factor in Y!Groups (mostly @ yahoo.com instead of @ yahoogroups.com), so it may be worth checking all the "is it plugged in" questions. Shal
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Duane
Lena
Shal Farley