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Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Peter,

I've never had anyone tell me that the boilerplate text turned them away from
the group, so I can't say it would help me. It wouldn't hurt my groups, so my
only concern would be if it can't be moved due to legal reasons.

Consider that people tend to dismiss reading introductions like that, or of just
about any kind. How many just click "I agree" to the conditions and privacy
notice when signing up for something like this, without reading any of it? If
they read any of it, it will be the first paragraph or two.

Donald


On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 19:04:38 -0400, "Peter S. Shenkin" <shenkin@...>
wrote:

I agree that it might not pass the "who cares" test. So far, I'm the only one who cares!

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I agree that it might not pass the "who cares" test. So far, I'm the only one who cares!
?
-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 6:51?PM Donald Hellen <donhellen@...> wrote:

I don't see it changing. It has to meet the standards of the EU as well as other
jurisdictions. They may actually require the legal stuff first. If that's the
case, it won't be changed.

To suggest this change, you need to bring this up in the Beta group. It also has
to pass the "who cares?" test, in other words, it has to benefit a large number
of groups without adverse impact to other groups, and also must still meet
international legal requirements. Bring it up in Beta and see where it goes.

Donald

[Excess quote trimmed by moderator]
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I don't see it changing. It has to meet the standards of the EU as well as other
jurisdictions. They may actually require the legal stuff first. If that's the
case, it won't be changed.

To suggest this change, you need to bring this up in the Beta group. It also has
to pass the "who cares?" test, in other words, it has to benefit a large number
of groups without adverse impact to other groups, and also must still meet
international legal requirements. Bring it up in Beta and see where it goes.

Donald



On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 14:47:29 -0700, "Andy Wedge" <andy_wedge@...>
wrote:

That may be your view but I'm guessing, as has also been stated before, that the current format has been reviewed by legal professionals which is why it is how it is.

----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:44 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
It does not compromise legality.?
?
For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that would always be present.
That may be your view but I'm guessing, as has also been stated before, that the current format has been reviewed by legal professionals which is why it is how it is.

Regards
Andy
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

It does not compromise legality.?

For the third or fourth time in this discussion, I will say that the legally required material can be stated concisely in a footer that would always be present.

That would permit the narrative to be expressed in the words of the Owner.

-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 5:40?PM Chris Jones via <chrisjones12=[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 08:37 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
It is needed because Mark Fletcher (who owns Groups.io) recognises that he has a legal responsibility to ensure that his Company observes the law; what you are asking for effectively strips him and Groups.io of that responsibility and delegates it to individual group owners who may (or may not) include that which is legally required into some messages. In his position I don 't think I would countenance any such delegation. What might or would happen if a group owner failed to incorporate material that is legally required??

Furthermore the "officially required boilerplate" is probably already as concise as the company's legal advisers will allow it to be, and burying it in a footer is simply not appropriate; "small print" has an unhappy reputation and putting it into a footer would effectively reduce it to the status of small print.?

I am very much with Greg D when he writes?I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion.

Chris.?

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 08:37 PM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
It is needed because Mark Fletcher (who owns Groups.io) recognises that he has a legal responsibility to ensure that his Company observes the law; what you are asking for effectively strips him and Groups.io of that responsibility and delegates it to individual group owners who may (or may not) include that which is legally required into some messages. In his position I don 't think I would countenance any such delegation. What might or would happen if a group owner failed to incorporate material that is legally required??

Furthermore the "officially required boilerplate" is probably already as concise as the company's legal advisers will allow it to be, and burying it in a footer is simply not appropriate; "small print" has an unhappy reputation and putting it into a footer would effectively reduce it to the status of small print.?

I am very much with Greg D when he writes?I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion.

Chris.?
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

If the legally required information?is expressed concisely in a footer, similar (to but not exactly the same as) the footer that appears at the bottom of this message, then the narrative part could be anything the Owner wishes.

-P.
-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 4:33?PM Greg D <ko6th.greg@...> wrote:
I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on
jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text,
which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion. Alternatively
they could require a legal review of everyone's submitted text, which
would be cost prohibitive.? Yay, 21's century...

Forcing the specific legal text to be included in a footer or such
probably meets the requirement, so to me this would be a viable
alternative.? Probably a matter for discussion on the Beta forum.

Greg


Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
> But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as
> the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially
> required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and
> the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


On 2023-06-13 13:41, Peter S. Shenkin via groups.io wrote:
And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.

You can suggest changes or whatnot regarding this in the group, that's where new features, bugs, changes, etc, are posted and discussed, and where management reads and participates, GMF is a user-to-user group.


But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all . . .

It's called C.Y.A.


. . . just as long as the required information is present.

Since you've done dev work in the past, you should know that this would be very hard to code, i.e. to check if the way some person phrased the required legalese text meets the legalese requirements.? It would require some very advanced AI software and even then there's no guarantee, anytime one gets into coding for semantics it becomes very hard with a higher than usual failure rate, not too mention that there's other languages besides English and groups.io is working on supporting other languages as well, so it would get really messy really quick.

Cheers,
Christos
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I expect it's a matter of legal risk avoidance.? Depending on jurisdiction, Groups.io could be held responsible for the legal text, which they cannot control unless they force its inclusion. Alternatively they could require a legal review of everyone's submitted text, which would be cost prohibitive.? Yay, 21's century...

Forcing the specific legal text to be included in a footer or such probably meets the requirement, so to me this would be a viable alternative.? Probably a matter for discussion on the Beta forum.

Greg


Peter S. Shenkin wrote:

But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Right now, it is the middle of the official message, neither before nor after it.

But I don't see why official?wording is needed at all, just as long as the required information is present. And as I said, all the officially required boilerplate could concisely be put in a required footer and the user's desired message could then replace the official text entirely.

-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 12:47?PM Greg D <ko6th.greg@...> wrote:
What I think would help is if the added message would appear above the default text, not under it.? With our small-screen, short-attention-span environment, the first impression is "What is this stuff.? Swipe to trash...".? Putting our introduction first should solve that.

Greg


Bruce Bowman wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:47 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message.
It states it quite clearly to me.

As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.
In order to even have a chance at a change, you'd have to request it on the since this is a peer-to-peer group not monitored by Groups.io management.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I already said that I included all the information (as far?as I know) in my own message, which I expected would replace the officialese. There is nothing I saw in the documentation?that said that the procedure I followed would not work in the obvious way.

The documentation for formulating a Direct Add message does not state that the procedure described would not create a new message. As I already stated, it would be quite?possible for to include this information concisely in a required footer while allowing the actual message to be whatever the owner wishes.

And no, the Officialese does not have to be included at all. "Officialese" is a style of expression. What has to be included are certain?legal requirements which I stated fully (as far as I can see) in my own way.

You are quite right that I referred to the Welcome message in my original email. But I followed the instructions for creating my own Direct Add message, and again, there is nothing in those instructions to indicate that this procedure would not replace the existing Direct Add message.

I have already (above and earlier) suggested an improvement which would allow a full replacement to take place; namely, by concisely stating the bare minimum requirements concisely in a required?footer.

-P.


On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:41?AM Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese
Based on most interpretations of worldwide law, the "officialese" has to come first so folks can easily leave if they want.? Of course, spammers don't pay any attention to minor things like laws.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

What I think would help is if the added message would appear above the default text, not under it.? With our small-screen, short-attention-span environment, the first impression is "What is this stuff.? Swipe to trash...".? Putting our introduction first should solve that.

Greg


Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

My group is not a discussion group. I have my group set to an announcement group with all new postings by me only and all responses to my postings to me only. This is appropriate for this situation. I have stated those things quite explicitly in my message.

I have been a member?of a number of discussion groups (yahoo, google, and ) over the years. I even wrote software to run such a group back in the?1980s. I'm an active member of a discussion group now and I like the way it works.?

A few people whom I have?added who have welcomed the?anouncements sent from my own email via bcc have actually been so turned off by the officialese Welcome and other messages that they have unsubscribed. In addition, several others have expressed their distress directly and I've had to soothe their concerns.

Though I appreciate your remarks, what you are suggesting is the opposite of what I am trying to do!

-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:31?AM KATHLEEN DESMAISONS <radiantkd@...> wrote:
Peter,
I have another suggestion for you. I think it might be a good idea to explain to your group what a list serve is and how it works. Many people ?who are unfamiliar with the ¡°every email goes to everyone process are horrified by the idea at first. If you explain that everyone learns from listening, they can get excited. Also if you take the time to explain logistics to new people they may be happier?
hope this helps
Kathleen

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese
Based on most interpretations of worldwide law, the "officialese" has to come first so folks can easily leave if they want.? Of course, spammers don't pay any attention to minor things like laws.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome
You're confusing two notices, Welcome and Direct Add.? Welcome is sent when someone joins your group on their own or you add them, Direct Add is only used when you add them.? There is a default Welcome created when you create a group, but can be modified, including deleting, to suit you.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I might add that this entire problem could be finessed by concisely?adding the required information in a footer, rather?than embedding the group owner's original message in a morass of officialese.
?
-P.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 11:17?AM Peter S. Shenkin <shenkin@...> wrote:

I did include the information you refer?to in my own Direct Add massage.

I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome, and was told in a response to my posting that I could replace the boilerplate welcome with my own message, as GMF has done. I followed the link that was given to replace the boilerplate mention. There is no mention in the help documentation that this procedure would, to put it bluntly, not work.
?
Is there no workaround? How did GMF manage to replace the boilerplate welcome?
?
-P.?

[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

I did include the information you refer?to in my own Direct Add massage.

I noted in my posting that the GMF welcome message does not include the boilerplate welcome, and was told in a response to my posting that I could replace the boilerplate welcome with my own message, as GMF has done. I followed the link that was given to replace the boilerplate mention. There is no mention in the help documentation that this procedure would, to put it bluntly, not work.

Is there no workaround? How did GMF manage to replace the boilerplate welcome?

-P.?

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 8:33?AM Bruce Bowman <bowman46118@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual

Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

Peter,
I have another suggestion for you. I think it might be a good idea to explain to your group what a list serve is and how it works. Many people ?who are unfamiliar with the ¡°every email goes to everyone process are horrified by the idea at first. If you explain that everyone learns from listening, they can get excited. Also if you take the time to explain logistics to new people they may be happier?
hope this helps
Kathleen
Re: Allow groups.io messages to be more personal

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:11 AM, Peter S. Shenkin wrote:
I followed the instructions to create my own Direct Add message, but when I do a Direct Add, the message I created?appears within the default message. My own message is the italicized part of the following. (I italicized that portion for this posting only.)?
For legal reasons, the Direct Add message must notify each subscriber that they're now in your group and give them a chance to opt out. Groups.io cannot assume you'll include such information in your custom notice.

I expected that my Direct Add message alone would appear when I do a?Direct Add. How can I make that happen?
You can't. But you can make use of all the fonts, colors, and other formatting features to make your inserted text stand out.

Regards,
Bruce
Check out the groups.io Help Center?and?groups.io Owners Manual
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